Some People (Poker)

[AgustusM]

So I am playing a standard PokerParty SitnGo and we are down to 5 players – I have roughly 1700 chips – leader about 2000, short stack 770 – so pretty close game.

I am the big blind at 300 – I get fold, call, call, fold (sb) pre-flop and I have A-7 suited

So I raise to 600 – short stack who has already called at 300 goes all-in at 770.

Next guy (from this point forth will be known as loud mouth moron or LMM) who is about even in chips with me calls.

I call

Flop comes rainbow 5-J-10 – the 10 is diamonds, same suit as my suited so I have an outside shot at the flush if I get runner runner – so I make a semi-bluff of 500, big yes – but if I push small he will stay in, so sure enough LMM folds.

River, turn – I end up with nothing and the short stack wins with a pair of 6’s.

No big deal – once I raised with my suited a-7 and got an all in I am not going to fold after betting 600 preflop when raised 170, especially by someone in the short stack since short stacks will often take their chances with a medium hand (such as his pair of sixes)

And my semi-bluff 500 bet worked perfectly since it chased LMM and essentially cost me nothing since short stack was already all-in so I got all 500 back. Not to mention I had been watching LMM bluff all night and knew that only occasionally did he have the cards to back up his betting and he frequently backed down to re-raises.

Now LMM starts on a tyrade about how that was the worst play he had ever seen and blah, blah, blah – of course he had a 10, so a pair of tens that would have beat short stack’s sixes and he was pissed that I bluffed him out of the winning hand. He should have been berating himself for having a bad read and folding to my bet – if he thought his 10’s were so great he should have called me and won the whole thing.

I just had to laugh at this guy because he kept typing away about what a poor play it was on my part without thinking through the hand –

I was correct in raising with A-7 suited, this could go either way but with 600 chips already out there on calls I stand a chance of stealing those with a raise, or running up the pot if I catch the nuts. Either way I like the raise in the big blind – the call is too much of a limp in for me unless I have crap.

I was correct in calling the all-in since it was for such a low amount AND pre-flop A-7 suited is a better hand then 6-6

I was correct in bluffing him out of the hand – it was a risk, but hell that is what poker is and me getting him to fold a better hand is not a bad play it is a very, very good one.


Alas – the story does not have a happy ending – 3 hands later I end up taking the dreaded 4th place when my straight is one card lower then the winning straight and LMM who sat and folded was still standing with not enough chips to even cover the blinds.

[Subby]

I think your preflop raise was questionable at best.

[Maple Leafs]

I remember being told that in a sit-and-go, nearing the money and with a short-stack all in pre-flop, it's bad form to bluff someone out of the pot when it allows the short stack to stay in the game.

Not sure I agree (play for yourself, not the table), but given the circumstances that may be what set him off.

[primelord]

Originally Posted by AgustusM

I was correct in raising with A-7 suited, this could go either way but with 600 chips already out there on calls I stand a chance of stealing those with a raise, or running up the pot if I catch the nuts. Either way I like the raise in the big blind – the call is too much of a limp in for me unless I have crap.

You had absolutely no chance of picking up that 600 uncontested with such a small raise. If you are going to raise here a bigger raise is a much better option.

I was correct in calling the all-in since it was for such a low amount AND pre-flop A-7 suited is a better hand then 6-6

You are correct, folding to the extra 170 would have been a mistake. However A7s is NOT a better hand than 66 pre-flop when you are heads up. With only 170 chips left there is no way the guy with 66 was folding to any raise you made. So you were going to be atleast heads up. Now depending on what the 3rd guy in the hand is holding your A7s hand may have the best chance of winning, but at best it is going to be around 1/3 of the time.

I was correct in bluffing him out of the hand – it was a risk, but hell that is what poker is and me getting him to fold a better hand is not a bad play it is a very, very good one.

Just because you win a hand or get someone to fold does not mean you made the correct play. You risked a large portion of your stack on the bubble with a backdoor flush draw and an overcard. It was not a particularly strong play.

Clearly your opponents reaction was just sour grapes. He folded the best hand and wasn't happy about it. However I don't agree with the way you played the hand. If you want to try and isolate the short stack pre-flop that is fine, but make a raise that actually has a chance of doing that. If you were very certain your other opponent would fold to your flop bet then I don't hate the flop bet, but you were putting a lot of your stack on the line with very little chance of improving to the best hand if you were behind.

[dixieflatline]

Bluffing or semi-bluffing into a dry side pot is generally not a good idea. Here are a couple of articles that Daniel Negreanu wrote on this1,2. I think in your situation it's much better for you to check until you actually have something in your hand that should beat the all-in player. While you would certainly like to pick up this pot the second best thing is if the all-in player is knocked out. He can't be bluffed out so you should have a hand to bet here.

[Radii]

With only 6 times the big blind you should be in push/fold mode pre-flop IMO. Go all in there if you're raising. You min-raised and now the pot is bigger than your stack going to the flop, that's rarely a place you want to be, your chips lose a lot of power then.

I see nothing wrong w/ a check here pre-flop, and nothing wrong with an all-in here. Anything in between puts you in a real tough situation.

[AgustusM]

thanks to all for the advice - I can see some reasons why you don't like the pre-flop raise. However there was another reason I did it (and didn't post it originally since the point of contention was the side pot raise) was the table was playing extremely tight - the past 5-6 hands had all been folding to any raise and I do believe in the "tight table - play loose" and "loose table - play tight" theory.

However, I still think (and it appears most agree here) that the tirade was about the semi-bluff which did work was correct and LMM was just sour grapes.

[Subby]

Originally Posted by AgustusM

thanks to all for the advice - I can see some reasons why you don't like the pre-flop raise. However there was another reason I did it (and didn't post it originally since the point of contention was the side pot raise) was the table was playing extremely tight - the past 5-6 hands had all been folding to any raise and I do believe in the "tight table - play loose" and "loose table - play tight" theory.

However, I still think (and it appears most agree here) that the tirade was about the semi-bluff which did work was correct and LMM was just sour grapes.

First, if you are going to raise pre-flop, you absolutely have to push all-in to try and isolate the short-stacked EP limper. Min-raising is terrible here, because you are begging for multiway action - a situation that takes you from a coin flip to 2-1 dog.

A good rule of thumb in one table SnGs is to push if your stack is less than 10xBB (which you were here).

I am guessing you wouldn't have posted this if your bluff hadn't worked out...were you prepared to call if he came back over the top of you?

Anyway - that guy never should have lit into you like that.

[larrymcg421]

Yeah the only thing you would get out of your preflop raise is putting more money in the pot. There is no reason for these people to fold for $300 more. They should call with just about any two cards. So you got more money into the pot when you had a weak hand. You only want to do that when you have a strong hand.