Congress & Schiavo

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

I dunno...I would think pain is probably a pretty primitive response to stimulus.

You are proving you have little to no understanding of how the brain works. Perception of pain is a conscious phenomenon. Reflexive action is just that - it produces a reflex, and carries with it a corallary stimulus to the higher brain to generate the appropriate sensory feedback. If the higher brain isn't functioning, as is the case with Terry Schiavo, the perception of pain or suffering can't occur. Lower-brain activity such as reflexive action will still occur, but there's nothing left in the brain to receive any stimulous of pain or suffering.

[SFL Cat]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

You are proving you have little to no understanding of how the brain works. Perception of pain is a conscious phenomenon. Reflexive action is just that - it produces a reflex, and carries with it a corallary stimulus to the higher brain to generate the appropriate sensory feedback. If the higher brain isn't functioning, as is the case with Terry Schiavo, the perception of pain or suffering can't occur. Lower-brain activity such as reflexive action will still occur, but there's nothing left in the brain to receive any stimulous of pain or suffering.

Naturally, you are the self-professed expert. In fact you seem to promote yourself as an expert in many things. Thank you for edumucatin' lil' ol' dumb me.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

Naturally, you are the self-professed expert. In fact you seem to promote yourself as an expert in many things. Thank you for edumucatin' lil' ol' dumb me.

Did you take multiple classes in college that dealt with how the brain works?

[dawgfan]

Dola -

There's nothing stopping you from doing some research to figure this stuff out on your own.

[Flasch186]

Im still of the opinion she should be allowed to die HOWEVER if were waiting for another stinkin' decision, I think then she should have tubes stuck back in. Kinda silly to not have them on while there is still some legal discussion going on. IMO

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

Im still of the opinion she should be allowed to die HOWEVER if were waiting for another stinkin' decision, I think then she should have tubes stuck back in. Kinda silly to not have them on while there is still some legal discussion going on. IMO

Well, this is the whole point of the current legal proceedings. The parents are asking for the tube to be re-inserted. Even if this request is granted, there will still have to be a trial afterwards where they will try to have Michael Schiavo removed as a guardian. However, before the tube can be re-inserted, they have the burden of proof to show there is a likelihood of them prevailing in said case. The district judge found that they didn't meet that burden.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Well, this is the whole point of the current legal proceedings. The parents are asking for the tube to be re-inserted. Even if this request is granted, there will still have to be a trial afterwards where they will try to have Michael Schiavo removed as a guardian. However, before the tube can be re-inserted, they have the burden of proof to show there is a likelihood of them prevailing in said case. The district judge found that they didn't meet that burden.

ok, fine, but until its appealed to the highest available court i think the tube should be reinputted or were really lawyering a moot point.

Hey, im for the lady being able to pass on, if that was her wish. Im down with that, but since it got back into the court stream (which I dont think it shouldve) we should put the tubes back in. eh?

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

ok, fine, but until its appealed to the highest available court i think the tube should be reinputted or were really lawyering a moot point.

Hey, im for the lady being able to pass on, if that was her wish. Im down with that, but since it got back into the court stream (which I dont think it shouldve) we should put the tubes back in. eh?

So every time someone files, no matter whether the petition has merit, we should put the tubes back in? Because that's what you're advocating here...

[Masked]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

ok, fine, but until its appealed to the highest available court i think the tube should be reinputted or were really lawyering a moot point.

The Supreme Court already declined to hear the case.

[yabanci]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Well, this is the whole point of the current legal proceedings. The parents are asking for the tube to be re-inserted. Even if this request is granted, there will still have to be a trial afterwards where they will try to have Michael Schiavo removed as a guardian. However, before the tube can be re-inserted, they have the burden of proof to show there is a likelihood of them prevailing in said case. The district judge found that they didn't meet that burden.

No, that's not correct. The statute passed by Congress confers jurisdiction to the federal court, but that jurisdiction is expressly limited to allegations that the state court proceedings violated Terri Shaivo's rights "under the Constitution and laws of the United States relating to the withholding or withdrawal of food, fluids, or medical treatment necessary to sustain her life."

There are no federal statutes relating to the withdrawal of food, etc. Consequently, the only claims the parents can raise at this point (and, in fact, the only claims they did raise) are for alleged violations of her rights under the US Constitution -- namely, procedural due process, equal protection, and free exercise of religion.

These alleged constitutional violations have been raised and rejected time and time again, most recently by the district court this morning, and they will continue to be rejected because they are frivolous.

There seems to be a huge misconception out there that this federal court judge is supposed to put on the hat of a Florida state court judge and relitigate every issue from scratch, but that's not the case.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by SunDancer

I agree, but the family claims new treatments can be tried, ect..

And both the trial court and the appeals court determined that there was no merit to those claims (the appeals court making that statement despite the fact that such a judgement was not required).

It looks to me as though they are in an advanced state of denial about her current state.

[Mr. Wednesday]

With regard to the timeline in the case, Michael did not suddenly decide to act in 1998. The question of Terri's care actually came to a head in 1994.

Early 1993 - According to the original court decision on the 1998 petition, Michael became estranged from the Schindlers in early 1993, supposedly over the disposition of the $300k loss of consortium judgement he was awarded in the malpractice trial (apparently, they wanted a cut of it, the judge implied that there was some he said, she said about prior arrangements but gave no details).
1994 - Schiavo orders that Terri not be treated for a UTI, and also issues a do not rescucitate order. In response to opposition from her parents and/or the facility where she was lodged, he withdrew these orders. Also in 1994, the Schindlers petitioned to have Michael removed as Terri's guardian. The record is a little unclear about the timing of this -- the 2003 GAL report suggests that happened prior to the UTI incident, the 2000 ruling on Michael's petition suggests that happened in response to the UTI incident. At this time, Terri was appointed her first of three Guardians Ad Litem, John H. Pecarek, to determine if she had been abused. He found no problems with her care.
1996 - After two more years of legal wrangling, the case for removal of Michael as her guardian was dismissed with prejudice. The 2000 court decision mentions something about her parents abandoning the case for financial reasons.

I'm not sure where I read it, but I've seen at least one indication that the 1998 petition was actually filed in 1997. I can't find anything about that in the GAL report, the 2000 decision by Greer, or the 2003 decision by the appeals court affirming the decision against novel treatment.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by Masked

The Supreme Court already declined to hear the case.

true, but this is a new twist with the stinkin' legislature getting involved I think it should go up, like it's supposed to on this path, and then get shut down again. BUT while that happens, I think the tube should be in while we discuss.

Dont mistake what Im saying for that which she shouldn't be allowed to die, because Im confident the supreme court will shut it down again, but I think that this "new" path deserves to be exhausted before he can rest in peace.

[clintl]

FWIW, the medical reporter (who is a practicing doctor) on KCRA here in Sacramento did a story tonight on what happens when a feeding tube is removed from someone in Terri Schiavo's condition, and he said it is a peaceful death and there is no pain because the brain has already shut down in her case.

[VPI97]

Appeal denied - http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/23/schiavo/index.html

Appeals panel won't order Schiavo fed

Parents had sought to restore feeding tube after lower court setback

Wednesday, March 23, 2005 Posted: 4:03 AM EST (0903 GMT)


ATLANTA, Georgia (CNN) -- A three-judge panel of the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals early Wednesday declined to order the reinsertion of Terri Schiavo's feeding tube.

The vote was 2 to 1.

The brain-damaged woman's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, had filed with the appeals court Tuesday, after U.S. District Court Judge James Whittemore in Tampa, Florida, decided not to grant a temporary restraining order that would allow reinstatement of the tube.

The tube has provided the 41-year-old woman with water and nutrients since 1990. She is being cared for at a Florida hospice.

After the appeals court ruling, a lawyer for the Schindlers said they would continue their fight, The Associated Press reported.

"The Schindlers will be filing an appropriate appeal to save their daughter's life," Rex Sparklin, an attorney with the law firm representing the parents, told the AP.

In issuing their majority opinion, 11th Circuit Judges Ed Carnes and Frank Hull said:

"We agree that the plaintiffs have failed to demonstrate a substantial case on the merits of any of their claims. We also conclude that the district court's carefully thought out decision to deny temporary relief in these circumstances is not an abuse of discretion."

Judge Charles Wilson, who said he "strongly dissented" from the majority opinion, said refusing the parents' appeal "frustrates Congress' intent, which is to maintain the status quo by keeping Theresa Schiavo alive until the federal courts have a new and adequate opportunity to consider the constitutional issues raised by plaintiffs."

Continuing, Wilson said, the whole point of a law passed early Monday by Congress was to "give the federal courts an opportunity to consider the merits of plaintiffs' constitutional claims with a fresh set of eyes."

Schiavo's feeding tube was removed Friday on the order of Pinellas Circuit Judge George Greer, a Florida judge who ruled that he had no jurisdiction in the case. He said judicial doctrine bars losing parties from using federal courts to appeal state court decisions.

Both sides in the case -- the Schindlers, and Schiavo's husband, Michael -- filed documents Tuesday with the appellate court in Atlanta.

"While time is of the essence here, there remains adequate time for this court to conduct an expedited and deliberate review," Michael Schiavo's filing said.

His lawyers also asked that if the appeals court ordered reinsertion, it also grant an automatic stay of eight hours so that Michael Schiavo could seek a review with the U.S. Supreme Court.

Attorney George Felos, representing the husband, told reporters that his client is by his wife's side, saying, "That's where he'll remain until she dies." He said Michael Schiavo also has given the Schindlers the right to visit the hospice in Pinellas Park, Florida.

President Bush has expressed support for the Schindlers' fight, signing legislation allowing the case to be reviewed by federal courts. (Full story)

White House press secretary Scott McClellan said the Bush administration would have preferred a "different ruling" than Whittemore's decision.

McClellan said the administration hoped the Schindlers find relief in the appeals process. (Full story)

The Justice Department late Tuesday filed documents in the appeals court supporting the Schindlers' effort to have the feeding tube reinserted while the legal battle plays out.

"Unless preliminary relief is immediately issued, there will be significant and irreversible injury: Theresa Schiavo will die," the document declared.

The 10-page "statement of interest" that was filed with the appeals court was nearly identical to one rejected by Whittemore.

In the new filing, now rejected by the appeals court panel, the government offered to submit a separate legal brief addressing the constitutionality of the law passed by Congress.

Reached in Tallahassee, Florida, Randall Terry -- an anti-abortion activist and spokesman for the Schindlers -- said the parents were "devastated" by the appeals panel's ruling.

"We're simply hoping the Tallahassee legislature will intervene to save Terri's life," he said. "At this point, it appears that all roads to saving Terri goes through Tallahassee."

Terry said he's in Tallahassee trying to convince state senators to vote for a bill that would reinsert Terri Schiavo's feeding tube.

"We've only got maybe two senators to convert, so I'm hoping the Tallahassee government gets its act together."

Schindlers 'shocked'

In denying the request for a temporary restraining order to restore the tube, Whittemore on Tuesday wrote that Schiavo's parents didn't have a "substantial likelihood of success" on the merits of their arguments.

"This court concludes that Theresa Schiavo's life and liberty interests were adequately protected by the extensive process provided in the state courts," the judge wrote.

Whittemore acknowledged the "gravity of the consequences of denying injunctive relief."

"Even under these difficult and time strained circumstances, however, and not withstanding Congress' expressed interest in the welfare of Theresa Schiavo, this court is constrained to apply the law to the issues before it," Whittemore's ruling said.

Bobby Schindler, Terri Schiavo's brother, told CNN in a phone interview from Washington, D.C., that his family was "just shocked" at the decision.

"I don't understand how the judge can predetermine our success," he said, adding that his family remained hopeful.

Schindler spokesman Gary McCullough called the decision "extremely cruel."

"Here's a woman whose life is hanging. She's being slowly starved," he said.

But Howard Simon, the executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Florida, defended the decision.

"What Judge Whittemore did in his decision was to defend the 'culture of freedom' that each of us has to exercise control over our lives, and the circumstances of our own death," he said in a written statement.

"There is a lesson for all of us in the tragic Schiavo case," he said. "Express your end-of-life views to your family and loved ones and, better, put it in writing."

Could federal courts spur new law?

If the federal courts decline to intervene in the Terri Schiavo case, Congress and Bush could pass and sign another law to try to keep the brain-damaged woman alive, said CNN legal analyst Kendall Coffey.

There is little precedent for Congress passing a law that would undo several years of court rulings, Coffey said.

The challenge congressional leaders would face, Coffey said, would be crafting legislation that would withstand U.S. Supreme Court scrutiny. Congress would need to be mindful of the constitutional provision of separation of powers, he said.

The law passed by Congress and signed by Bush early Monday gave a federal court the right to consider whether Florida courts had violated Schiavo's rights, Coffey said.

The law did not ask federal courts to "start from scratch," Coffey said, and rule on other medical and legal questions surrounding the case.

Woman's wishes debated

Michael Schiavo insists that his wife would never want to continue to live in her condition -- what Florida courts have deemed a persistent vegetative state.

People in such a condition cannot think, speak or respond to commands and are not aware of their surroundings.

Terri Schiavo collapsed in her home in 1990, suffering from heart failure that led to severe brain damage. Michael Schiavo said his wife suffered from bulimia that resulted in a potassium deficiency, triggering the heart failure.

Schiavo's parents point to the absence of a living will, or written document, clearly spelling out her wishes. They argue that their daughter's due process rights have been violated and that she would not have wanted to die this way due to her faith as a Roman Catholic.

They also contend that their daughter's condition could improve with treatment.

Repeated court rulings have held that Michael Schiavo is his wife's legal guardian and has the right to make decisions regarding her care.

CNN's Matt Smith, Bob Franken and Ninette Sosa contributed to this report.

I also wanted to include a summary of the situation that was written on a debate forum I frequent...it sums up my thoughts far better than I could do.

I'm absolutely astounded by the misinformation that is out there. Terri collapsed, due to cardiac arrest. 3 years after her collapse her husband won a malpractice suit with the award being a grand total of $1 million dollars. $700,000 for Terri and $300,000 for the husband. The orginial award was a lot greater, but it was reduced because it was found that Terri was 70% responsible for her own condition. The collapse happened in 1990. In 1998 her husband, after having agressive treatment pursued for Terri for YEARS with no improvement, petitioned the court to remove Terri's feeding tube. Dr.'s had diagnosed her with PVS. The Schindler family disagreed with the husband, so as per the law, the husband as next of kin and guardian of Terri petitioned the court to have a trial to determine Terri's wishes. The trial found that Terri would not want to be kept alive in this manner. Terri's parents testified in court, and under oath that they did not know what Terri wanted, and even if they knew that she would want the feeding tube removed they would not do it. Terri's husband and two of his family members each testified (and were unable to be impeached under cross examination) that at different times, Terri had expressed a desire not to be kept alive by artificial means. The court also based their decison not solely on testimony, but as the court stated, taking into account the person that Terri was, her personality, her previous decision making process.
The case went to the 2nd District Court of Appeals, which found that the trial court had followed the law, and upon review of the case found that the trial court was correct in it's decision, and that they came to the same conclusion as the trial court. The decision of the Trial court was reviewed and affirmed. The Schindlers have petitioned the court for YEARS over a wide range of things, and have lost every single time. For all the screaming by the Schindler family that the husband only wants to get his hands on her money, they forget to mention that they want custody of her, and then they would be heirs to her estate, much like the husband is now. The fail to mention that they demanded money from the husband from the malpractice lawsuit, and when he refused to give it to them, then and only then did they seek to have him removed as guardian. They have changed their story throughout the years, while the husband has consistantly maintained that he is only doing this because he believes it is what Terri wanted. The husband has been offered money time and again and it's always been refused. He offered to "give up" the malpractice award if the Schindlers would just walk away and allow Terri's wishes to be carried out, and they refused. The Schindlers offered to sign over book, tv, & movie deal rights if the husband would give them custody of her. He refused, saying again it wasn't about money or anything other than following Terri's wishes.

Timeline of Events:

February 1990… Terri suffers cardiac arrest and a severe loss of oxygen to her brain
May 1990… Terri leaves hospital and is brought to a rehabiliation center for aggressive therapy
July 1990… Terri is brought to the home where her husband and parents live; after a few weeks, she is brought back to the rehabilitation center
November 1990… Terri is taken to California for experimental therapies
January 1991… Terri is returned to Florida and placed at a rehabilitation center in Brandon
July 1991… Terri is transfered to a skilled nursing facility where she receives aggressive physical therapy and speech therapy
May 1992… Michael and the Schindlers stop living together
January 1993… Michael recovers $1 million settlement for medical malpractice claim involving Terri's care; jury had ruled in Michael's favor on allegations Terri's doctors failed to diagnose her bulimia, which led to her heart failure; case settled while on appeal
March 1994… Terri is transferred to a Largo nursing home
May 1998… Michael files petition for court to determine whether Terri's feeding tube should be removed; Michael takes position that Terri would chose to remove the tube; Terri's parents take position that Terri would chose not to remove the tube
February 2000… Following trial, Judge Greer rules that clear and convincing evidence shows Terri would chose not to receive life-prolonging medical care under her current circumstances (i.e., that she would chose to have the tube removed)
April 2000… Terri is transferred to a Hospice facility
January 2001… Second District Court of Appeal affirms the trial court's decision regarding Terri's wishes
April 23, 2001… Florida Supreme Court denies review of the Second District's decision
April 23 or 24, 2001… Trial court orders feeding tube removed
April 24, 2001… Terri's feeding tube is removed
April 26, 2001… Terri's parents file motion asserting they have new evidence regarding Terri's wishes
April 26, 2001… Trial court denies Terri's parents' motion as untimely
April 26, 2001… Terri's parents file new legal action against Michael Schiavo and request that the removal of Terri's feeding tube be enjoined; the case is randomly assigned to Judge Quesada
April 26, 2001… Judge Quesada grants the temporary injunction, orders Terri's feeding tube restored
July 2001… Second District rules that Judge Greer erred in denying the motion alleging new evidence and, in essence, orders the trial court to consider whether new circumstances make enforcement of the original order inequitable; Second District also reverses the temporary injunction and orders dismissal of much of the new action filed before Judge Quesada
(uncertain)… Terri's parents detail their reasons why enforcement is inequitable: (1) new witnesses have new information regarding Terri's wishes, and (2) new medical treatment could sufficiently restore Terri's cognitive functioning such that Terri would decide that, under those circumstances, she would continue life-prolonging measures; Terri's parents also move to disqualify Judge Greer
(uncertain)… Trial court denies both motions as insufficient
October 2001… Second District affirms the denial of the motion to disqualify and the motion regarding the new witnesses; the appellate court reverses the order with regard to potential new medical treatments and orders a trial on that question with doctors testifying for both sides and a court-appointed independent doctor
March 2002… Florida Supreme Court denies review of the Second District's decision
October 2002… Judge Greer holds a trial on the new medical treatment issue, hearing from doctors for both sides and a court-appointed independent doctor; Terri's parents also assert that Terri is not in a persistent vegetative state
Schindlers file emergency motion for relief from judgment based on a 1991 bone scan report indicating Terri's body had previously been subjected to trauma
November 22, 2002… Following trial, Judge Greer denies Schindlers' motion for relief (new medical evidence motion), rules that no new treatment offers sufficient promise of improving Terri's cognitive functioning and that Terri is, in fact, in a persistent vegetative state
November 22, 2002… On this same day, Judge Greer denies Schindlers' emergency motion related to the 1991 bone scan
June 2003… Second District affirms the trial court's decision denying Schindlers' motion for relief from judgment
August 2003… Florida Supreme Court denies review of the Second District's decision
September 2003… Terri's parents file federal action challenging Florida's laws on life-prolonging procedures as unconstitutional
October 10, 2003… Federal court dismisses Schindlers' case
October 15, 2003… Terri's feeding tube is disconnected
October 20, 2003… Florida House passes a bill to permit the Governor to issue a stay in cases like Terri's and restore her feeding tube
October 21, 2003… Federal court rejects injunction request
October 21, 2003… Florida House and Senate pass a bill known informally as "Terri's Law" to permit the Governor to issue a stay in cases like Terri's and restore her feeding tube ; Governor signs the bill into law and immediately orders a stay; Terri is briefly hospitalized while her feeding tube is restored
October 21, 2003… Michael brings suit against the Governor, asking to enjoin the Governor's stay on grounds "Terri's Law" is unconstitutional; Judge Baird rejects Michael's request for an immediate injunction, allowing the tube to be restored, and requests briefs on the constitutional arguments involving the new law
November 7, 2003… Judge Baird rejects Governor's motion to dismiss Michael's suit and have case litigated in Tallahassee
November 20, 2003… Judge Baird rejects Governor's request for the judge to recuse himself
December 1, 2003… Guardian ad litem appointed under "Terri's Law" to advise Governor submits report to Governor
December 10, 2003… Second District rejects Governor's effort to have Judge Baird disqualified
April 2004… Second District affirms Judge Baird's decision denying Governor's motion to dismiss and have case litigated in Tallahassee
May 2004… Judge Baird declares "Terri's Law" unconstitutional on numerous grounds
June 2004… Second District certifies "Terri's Law" case directly to the Florida Supreme Court
July 2004… Schindlers file new motion for relief from judgment based on Pope John Paul II speech
September 2004… Florida Supreme Court affirms Judge Baird's ruling that "Terri's Law" is unconstitutional
October 2004… Judge Greer denies Schindlers' most recent motion for relief from judgment (motion based on Pope John Paul II speech)
December 1, 2004… Governor asks U.S. Supreme Court to review Florida Supreme Court's decision declaring "Terri's Law" unconstitutional
December 29, 2004… Second District affirms (without written opinion) Judge Greer's ruling denying Schindlers' most recent motion for relief from judgment
January 6, 2005… Schindlers file new motion for relief from judgment, alleging Terri never had her own attorney, that the trial court impermissibly applied the law retroactively, and that the original trial on Terri's wishes violated separation of powers principles
January 24, 2005… U.S. Supreme Court declines review in "Terri's Law" case

February 11, 2005… Judge Greer denies Schindlers' latest motion for relief from judgment

All court decisions can be found at this site:
http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html

The discharge diagnosis from the hospital where she was originally taken is:
Principle Diagnosis:
*Cardiac Arrest

Secondary Diagnosis:
*Anoxic Brain Damage
*Hypopotassemia
*Respiratory Failure
*Pneumonia Due to Staphylococcus
*Effusion of Joint, Lower Legs
*Bacterial Disease
*Staphylococcus Infection in Conditions Classified Elsewhere &/OR Of Unspecified Site

Here is the CAT scan done on Terri in 1996:


Here is an example of a CAT scan done on a normal, functioning brain:


Her cerebral cortex is gone and has been replaced with spinal fluid. Her brain stem is still functioning and is the cause behind her movements and the noises she makes. It's simple reflexive actions, not cognitive activity.

She's been given 3 separate swallowing tests and each has determined that she is unable to swallow on her own. If someone tried to feed her or give her liquid by mouth, she would most likely aspirate and/or develop pneumonia.

It's my opinion that the parents are less than honest, and have proven that they don't care as much for their daughter as they do for the spotlight of the media. These people went against court orders and took video of their daughter at the hospice facility and has been offering those video clips online, for a donation to their fund, and even went so far as to ask the court to allow the media to be in her room during the death process after the tube is removed. Their claims of abuse have been investigated time and again, and proven to be unfounded.

The person Terri Schiavo was, is gone. Her wishes have been determined in a court of law.

[miked]

It's amazing that this has been decided in state court, politicians have created unconstitutional state laws on this that were struck down, they then wrote a most likely unconstitutional law to allow it to be reviewed federally; and now that the federal decision is the same, they are going back to possibly create new state laws again. Is this what our legal process has become?

Better be careful VPI, with all the non-doctors offering their medical opinions, those CAT scans are likely to come under heavy scrutiny.

[HomerJSimpson]

It's my opinion that the parents are less than honest, and have proven that they don't care as much for their daughter as they do for the spotlight of the media. These people went against court orders and took video of their daughter at the hospice facility and has been offering those video clips online, for a donation to their fund, and even went so far as to ask the court to allow the media to be in her room during the death process after the tube is removed. Their claims of abuse have been investigated time and again, and proven to be unfounded.

That's the only part of that quote I don't agree with. I think that these people are 1) deeply religous (quite possibily more so since Terri's first got sick) and have a fear for her soul if her wishes are carried out; and 2) are very unwilling to let go of Terri, and will take her as she is if that is all they have.

I personally believe neither side have "evil" motives, but fully believe in what they are doing. This isn't a love of publicity, but a willingness to go to extremes to right what they feel are wrongs.

[SFL Cat]

Since the outcome of this sad situation seems increasingly evident, this will be my last post on this matter.

I'll conclude by saying that as far as how the human brain works, there is a lot more we don't know than we do know. Even if we discount such metaphysical concepts as the soul or spirit from what constitutes human consciousness, our understanding of human conginition is in its barest infancy. In a 2003 paper, Yehouda Harpaz wrote:

"CogPsys tend to try to support theirs models by evidence about the macro-structure of the brain. However, from the little that we know about information processing systems (e.g. computers), it is obvious that you cannot understand the logic of the system from the macro-structure. (For example, consider figuring out how a word processor works from the physical structure of the computer it runs on). The main problem is that currently we only know about the existence of connections between various brain structures, but we don't have a clue about their activity in various situations.

New imaging techniques give a more dynamic picture of the brain, but they don't tell us anything about the interaction between various parts of the brain. In addition, they can only show places where there is a large change in activity, which do not necessarily correspond to the most important activity for cognitive function. On top of this, the actual results don't show consistent (across experiments) correlation between brain images and psychological variables. (There is in the field an illusion that imaging techniques do give significant results, but this is based on overinterpretation of the data. Here is a fuller discussion).

As a result of our limited knowledge of the activity in the connections between various structures, and the complexity of these connections, the knowledge we do have imposes very little constraints on the possible models. Thus this knowledge cannot be used to guide model building, and can be only used for constraining them. CogPsys, however, believe that this knowledge is very useful, and give large weight to 'evidence' from it. Since the 'evidence' from macro-structure is not actually useful for building models, this 'evidence' is normally actually based on some of the other reasoning errors."

Those of you who smugly argue that Terri is beyond experiencing discomfort or pain are full of sh*t. You can't know with any certainty. You can only speculate based on our current theories of how the brain works. No one can argue that a newborn baby is capable of cognizance, and yet the infant certainly knows when it is hungry or in discomfort (as anyone who has had to get up in the middle of the night knows). In the mid 1980s, Arthur C. Clarke wrote a book speculating on trends that might surface during the next Millenium. One of the trends he saw was the emergence of a "Cult of Death," encompassing those who are morbidly fascinated by and celebrate death and dying. He is turning out to be one prophetic athiest.

My position on this is clear. I believe society should always err on the side of life. However, to continue to argure with those of you in favor of continuing this travesty is pointless. I can only hope that the state or federal government enacts a law allowing euthanasia in cases like this because frankly, sick animals that need to be put down get better treatment.

[HomerJSimpson]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

CogPsys tend to try to support theirs models by evidence about the macro-structure of the brain. However, from the little that we know about information processing systems (e.g. computers), it is obvious that you cannot understand the logic of the system from the macro-structure. (For example, consider figuring out how a word processor works from the physical structure of the computer it runs on). The main problem is that currently we only know about the existence of connections between various brain structures, but we don't have a clue about their activity in various situations.

He is right in one sense, but to suggest that a brain completely turned to liquid is still functioning is silly. To use his computer analogy, her power supply is still connected but her CPU has been removed.

Those of you who smugly argue that Terri is beyond experiencing discomfort or pain are full of sh*t. You can't know with any certainty. You can only speculate based on our current theories of how the brain works. No one can argue that a newborn baby is capable of cognizance, and yet the infant certainly knows when it is hungry or in discomfort (as anyone who has had to get up in the middle of the night knows). In the mid 1980s, Arthur C. Clarke wrote a book speculating on trends that might surface during the next Millenium. One of the trends he saw was the emergence of a "Cult of Death," encompassing those who are morbidly fascinated by and celebrate death and dying. He is turning out to be one prophetic athiest.

Your idiology is showing. For your information, I'm firmly against the very "trends" you are talking about, but this case is not in anyway connected to those trends! This is just a "cause celebrita" (sp?), and it doesn't fit your "doom and gloom" scenario.

My position on this is clear. I believe society should always err on the side of life. However, to continue to argure with those of you in favor of continuing this travesty is pointless. I can only hope that the state or federal government enacts a law allowing euthanasia in cases like this because frankly, sick animals that need to be put down get better treatment.

I agree, but sadly if the very people you are arguing for gets their way, we'll no longer even have the right to set DNR's and remove machines in hopeless cases. This case is not creating new medical laws, but if overturned will remove medical rights from indiviuals and put them in the hands of the government. Are you comfortable with that?

[Flasch186]

All of science that we know of is speculation. But at some point an overabundance of evidence should be enough for us to say, "Okay. thats how it works." or "thats how it is." Brilliant.

In this case, not evilly, and not without care, you and millions of people allow your sometimes religious, and sometimes over-emotionalness to try to control others. This is where, many times, political soapboxes differ but in this case its not, or should not be politics (eventhough it increasingly is so)...its only about her and her wishes. Not yours or anyone else's.

Now that the courts, which many times people like their decisions and many times they dont but we all live in this country where the courts interpret the law based on the constitution and its ammendments, have decided, we should allow her to pass on.

When a law backs one up, we laud it and use it to substantiate our claim...when it doesnt we target it and run over it and blame everyone including the judge for activism and misinterpretation. It isnt fair but its the truth. Luckily in this case, with as many different judges, at many different levels, expanding on the topic at hand, I feel fairly certain that, the smarter men and women, have, with all due respect, chosen wisely.

Im sure that this falls in line with the anti-abortion thoughts but this IMO is completely different. Ive heard many times that crowd extoll the fact that the fetus cant make their own decision. However in this case, many people came forward to state that Terri had expressed her desire, if fate should hold, to never have to live like she is today. Considering this, and ONLY this, and finding that it is the truth...what more can you ask for? She stated her wish and she wouldve wanted to move on after 7 years or more of her husband exploring avenues of recovery.

It is time that Mrs. Schiavo be allowed to rest in peace, as was her wish.

[Mr. Wednesday]

If the Schindlers are truly shocked that the judge denied an injunction based on a judgement related to likely decision on the merits of the case, they have a problem with their lawyer, who IMO should have laid the whole thing out for them.

[Crapshoot]

Its over - the Federal appeals court denied it as well. At what point do you acknowledge you are in the wrong ?

[SunDancer]

Originally Posted by HomerJSimpson

That's the only part of that quote I don't agree with. I think that these people are 1) deeply religous (quite possibily more so since Terri's first got sick) and have a fear for her soul if her wishes are carried out; and 2) are very unwilling to let go of Terri, and will take her as she is if that is all they have.

I personally believe neither side have "evil" motives, but fully believe in what they are doing. This isn't a love of publicity, but a willingness to go to extremes to right what they feel are wrongs.

I agree with you. I think the problem I have is allowing "religion" into this case by "outsiders" (people like us, congress, ect.). I am glad the courts are able to seperate this, and look at the medicial and Constitutional facts solely. What if this person happened to be a person who believe in something else, like an Arab (just using it as an example), anthesist, ect.

[SunDancer]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Its over - the Federal appeals court denied it as well. At what point do you acknowledge you are in the wrong ?

Actually, they can still appeal to the US Supreme Court. If it is denied, then its over.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by SunDancer

Actually, they can still appeal to the US Supreme Court. If it is denied, then its over.

Maybe not. Evidenty, Gov. Jeb Bush is petitioning the court right now to transfer custodial rights to him.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by cartman

Maybe not. Evidenty, Gov. Jeb Bush is petitioning the court right now to transfer custodial rights to him.

I'd love to hear his rationale for doing that... (and why the governor and not the parents?)

[SirFozzie]

Some doc who hasn't personally examined Terri.. but swears she's not in a vegitative state.


Inside Politics
Florida officials move again to intervene in Schiavo case

Wednesday, March 23, 2005 Posted: 6:09 PM EST (2309 GMT)

Florida Gov. Jeb Bush announces a new legal filing in the Terri Schiavo case.


TALLAHASSEE, Florida (CNN) -- Florida authorities have filed a new request to intervene in the case of brain-damaged Florida woman Terri Schiavo, arguing that new information suggests she may retain some consciousness, Gov. Jeb Bush said Wednesday.

Dr. William Cheshire, a neurologist at the Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville, concluded Schiavo is "most likely in a state of minimal consciousness," rather than the persistent vegetative state previous doctors have diagnosed, Bush said.

"This new information raises serious concerns and warrants immediate action," Bush said.

Cheshire reviewed Schiavo's medical records, watched videotapes and observed her at the hospice, but was not able to personally examine her, Department of Children and Families Secretary Lucy Hadi told reporters.

A Florida judge, who also reviewed medical records and videotapes, in 2002 rejected arguments put forth by doctors chosen by Schiavo's parents that she was not in a persistent vegetative state. Three other doctors -- two chosen by Schiavo's husband, Michael, and one chosen by the court -- concluded she was in that state.

Michael Schiavo has said his wife told him she would not want to be kept alive in her current state. Florida courts have agreed, and Terri Schiavo's feeding tube was removed Friday.

Bush said the request was likely to go back to Pinellas County Circuit Judge George Greer, who issued the order to remove Schiavo's feeding tube and rejected earlier attempts by the state agency to step into the case.

The move comes amid last-ditch efforts to restore a feeding tube for Schiavo, who suffered severe brain damage in 1990 after heart failure linked to an eating disorder. Schiavo, now 41, has been at the center of a legal and moral tug-of-war between her husband, Michael, and her parents for the past seven years.

Bush said he is "doing everything within my power" to get Schiavo's feeding tube restored. His announcement came as federal appeals court in Atlanta rejected her parents' latest attempt to obtain a federal court order restoring the feeding tube.

"I'm to make sure that Terri is afforded at least the same rights that criminals convicted of the most heinous crimes take for granted," Bush said. "If a prisoner comes forward with new DNA evidence 20 years after his conviction suggesting his innocence, there is no doubt that the courts, in our state or all across the country for that matter, would immediately review his case. We should do no less for Terri Schiavo."

Repeated court rulings have held that Michael Schiavo is his wife's legal guardian and has the right to make decisions regarding her care.

Her parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, have been more successful in the political arena: Bush and his brother, President Bush, both have signed bills aimed at preventing doctors from removing the feeding tube and allowing her to die.

Wednesday afternoon, the Florida Senate rejected a bill that would have allowed Terri Schiavo's feeding tube to be reinserted to provide the brain-damaged woman with water and nutrition.

A Florida law that would have kept her alive was ruled unconstitutional last year, but a new bill that would prohibit the suspension of food and water from patients in a persistent vegetative state without a living will was working its way through the state Legislature on Wednesday.

And Congress passed a bill early Monday that pushed the issue into federal courts, but a federal district court in Tampa and an appeals court in Atlanta have since refused to intervene.

Terri Schiavo collapsed in her home in 1990, suffering from heart failure that led to severe brain damage. Michael Schiavo said his wife suffered from bulimia that resulted in a potassium deficiency, triggering the heart failure.

[SunDancer]

Her medicial records are being thrown around quite a bit.

[yabanci]

The governor's effort has already failed:

Efforts to Restore Schiavo Feeding Tube Defeated

By Manuel Roig-Franzia
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, March 23, 2005; 6:13 PM

PINELLAS PARK, Fla., March 23 -- In the third setback in a day for efforts to resume tube feeding of a brain-damaged woman, the Florida State Senate this afternoon rejected a measure backed by Gov. Jeb Bush (R) to force doctors to reinsert the tube.

The 21-18 vote came after the parents of the woman, Terry Schiavo, lost two efforts earlier in the day to get a federal appeals court to order the tube reinserted.

etc, etc., etc.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2005Mar23.html

[SunDancer]

If the bill had passed, can the courts call it "unconstitutional", and the bill would be dead anyways?

[cartman]

Originally Posted by SunDancer

If the bill had passed, can the courts call it "unconstitutional", and the bill would be dead anyways?

Yes. The reason it didn't pass is that the Senators pretty much agreed that this was a copy of the law that was already declared unconstitutional. But the courts couldn't unilaterally declare it unconstitutional, someone would have to petition the court for a ruling.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by cartman

Maybe not. Evidenty, Gov. Jeb Bush is petitioning the court right now to transfer custodial rights to him.

A Republican finally revealing himself. Both Republicans and Democrats think they are our parents and we need them to do everything for us. This is just someone who is finally willing to take off the sheep costume so we can see the wolf hiding underneath. It is perhaps one of the most honest things a Republocrat could be doing. He should petition for guardianship of everyone living in Florida.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

Im still of the opinion she should be allowed to die HOWEVER if were waiting for another stinkin' decision, I think then she should have tubes stuck back in. Kinda silly to not have them on while there is still some legal discussion going on. IMO

It's a stall tactic that has been used over and over again. The tubes would be in forever because 'legal discussion' would start everytime they were finally about to be pulled.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Its over - the Federal appeals court denied it as well. At what point do you acknowledge you are in the wrong ?

Never, and you keep hugging religious fellows who are shown on TV comparing this to "Nazi Germany." The tactics of these people are frightening. They know no boundaries and will say anything if they think it will shock people into supporting them.

[JeffNights]

Its amazing, FLorida will execute killers by lethal injection. Its painless and pretty quick, yet Terri has to suffer for up to two weeks.

That piece of Shit who killed Jessica Lunsford right now is getting three square meals a day, Yet Terri Schiavo cant get a drop of water.

Nice System eh?

[SunDancer]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

Never, and you keep hugging religious fellows who are shown on TV comparing this to "Nazi Germany." The tactics of these people are frightening. They know no boundaries and will say anything if they think it will shock people into supporting them.

That what scares me. I'm no means religious, but I'm all for the freedom and liberty of it. I just don't like these people pressing "their" values on others and getting involve in where they don't belong (and slandering the opposing parties in the process). Escp. when they don't truly understand the entire facts and the reality of it. What if the person was a non-believer in God, or believe in another religion, would it be where it is at today?

[Karlifornia]

You know what the perfect ending to this would be? If a nurse walking around the hospital tonight sees Terri Schiavo slapping at a vending machine saying "Fuckin' thing won't take a dollar!"

[Bomber]

Originally Posted by RadioFriendlyUnitShifter

You know what the perfect ending to this would be? If a nurse walking around the hospital tonight sees Terri Schiavo slapping at a vending machine saying "Fuckin' thing won't take a dollar!"

Or if the put a cup of water in her hand and she instinctively chucks it across the room at her mom and then dies.

[kcchief19]

I was gone most of last week and over the weekend as this discussion was raging on, so perhaps this thought has already been articulated. I apologize if I am parroting someone else.

I feel sorry for Terri Schiavo's parents. I have been in situations where family or friends have been kept alive on a ventilator or feeding tube and it is a horrible position. I'm fortunate that I have not had to make the decision myself to discontinue someone else's life, but I do know without a doubt that for me, watching someone I love in pain is much worse than letting them go.

Her parents have put their lives and the lives of others on hold for 15 years waiting for a miracle that cannot happen. I just don't know how you can think that keeping someone in a persistent vegetative state for 15 years is not painful to that person but letting them die and be at peace is cruel and unusual punishment.

I'm not a terribly religious person, but I have a deep respect for people who are religious and practice their religion faithfully. What I cannot abide are people who profess to be religious then lead their lives ignorant of their religion. I can't tell you how many politicians and run-of-the-mill citizens I have seen who invoke their faith and then want to keep Terri alive. If you are a Christian, you would know that according to faith those who have left us are in a "better place" in a world where God wants you to be. Professing religion then denying Terri the right to join her God smacks of the very worst of using a horrific situation for personal or political gain.

I hope that her parents can find a way to let her go. I realize not everyone is the same, but I think at some point you have to do what is best for your daughter and best for yourself. I doubt that her parents even realize how maintaining a false hope has done nothing but make the loss of their daughter that much more painful to her and to them.

[Jesse_Ewiak]

Again, because nothing will change peoples mind, the contuining political fallout. In short, House Republicans fucked up, thinking this could be a wedge issue like gay marriage.

Oops.

Just 13 percent of those polled think Congress intervened in the case out of concern for Schiavo, while 74 percent think it was all about politics. Of those polled, 66 percent said the tube should not be inserted compared to 27 percent who want it restored. The issue has generated strong feelings, with 78 percent of those polled -- wheter for either side of the issue -- saying they have strong feelings.

Public approval of Congress has suffered as a result; at 34 percent, it is the lowest it has been since 1997, dropping from 41 percent last month. Now at 43 percent, President Bush’s approval rating is also lower than it was a month ago.

[Ragone]

Originally Posted by RadioFriendlyUnitShifter

You know what the perfect ending to this would be? If a nurse walking around the hospital tonight sees Terri Schiavo slapping at a vending machine saying "Fuckin' thing won't take a dollar!"

Actually when she went into a coma.. i don't think vending machines even took dollars

[panerd]

Here is what I don't understand. A lot of people (including myself) think Congress and Jeb Bush have purely polictical motives for doing this. The rational seems to be that these people carry the power of a bunch of votes. Let's be real honest here... are all of the conservative Christian voters going to vote for a Democrat if Jeb Bush doesn't keep pushing this agenda? One issue versus thousands? Give me a break!

[Raiders Army]

Is a tomato a vegetable or fruit? In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter if she has cognitive abilities or not. Who the hell cares. The fact is, she will not get better.

I believe that most people believe in the soul, or the concept of the soul. If Terri Schiavo has a soul, then where is it? If it already left her body, then her body can be killed without remorse. If her soul is trapped inside her body, wouldn't it be more humane to let her die (or even kill her)? I can't imagine what it would be like trapped inside of a body for 15 years and not be able to communicate.

Let's kill her and be done with this matter, now that the family has gotten the public involved.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by JeffNights

...

That piece of Shit who killed Jessica Lunsford right now is getting three square meals a day, Yet Terri Schiavo cant get a drop of water.

...

Well on the up side, she won't notice.

[bronconick]

Originally Posted by panerd

Here is what I don't understand. A lot of people (including myself) think Congress and Jeb Bush have purely polictical motives for doing this. The rational seems to be that these people carry the power of a bunch of votes. Let's be real honest here... are all of the conservative Christian voters going to vote for a Democrat if Jeb Bush doesn't keep pushing this agenda? One issue versus thousands? Give me a break!

They're not worried about Democrats stealing the Christian Right.

They're interested in taking this situation and running attack Ads against Democrats in the midterms- "My opponent is for the killing of women. I voted to keep Terry Schiavo alive." and using those attack ads to get a higher percentage of the Christian Right to show up.