How strongly to confront....

[Ben E Lou]

I'm coaching a church league basketball game last night, and things got a little crazy. There was a collision on the court between two players from the opposing teams--not a very hard one, but hard enough that the two players involved fell to the floor. Neither was injured, and both got up immediately. All but one player on my team agreed that it was incidental contact--no one's fault, and that no foul should have been called, which is exactly what happened. However, the player on my team involved--let's call him "John"--who is extremely hotheaded and has a temper problem (more on that later)--was the one on my team who thought it should have been a foul on the other guy. He blew up at the ref, and got two technicals and kicked out of the game before anyone could restrain him. At this point, the ref tells me that "John" needs to leave the gym. John storms off the court to the bench, grabs his stuff, and walks out in a huge huff, of course. At this point, John's dad stands up in the bleachers and starts yelling at the ref, telling him how poor of a job he's doing, going off on him, just generally acting like a world-class jerk. John's mom was sitting there just utterly mortified; she didn't even restrain him, just let him rant on. At one point during his rant, John's dad declares that "This game is over. We're not playing any more. Come on guys, off the court!"--motioning to my guys to leave the court, which they didn't do.

Now, a couple of details of the circumstances surrounding this:

1. I've known this family pretty much the entire time I've lived in Tucker--8 years. I've not just known them, but have been pretty close to both sons, mom, and dad. I'm actually closer to the wife than the husband, as she has been a member of my board of directors for several years.

2. I noticed John's extreme anger/temper problems back when he was in 7th or 8th grade (he's now a Junior in HS). It was bad enough even then that I did something I rarely do--went to his mother and encouraged her to pursue some sort of course of action designed to gain a better understanding of John's temper issues. She assured me at the time that they were aware of it, asked me to pray about it, and said they were hoping to work on it. Over the last few years, it has gotten no better, and may be even worse.

My wife is convinced that if such an outburst as John's dad had happened in public, it has happened in private as well, and probably has a whole lot to do with the severe anger issues we've noticed in John. She is strongly encouraging me to have a heart-to-heart with John's dad about this whole incident. I'm at a bit of a loss as to how to approach this one. I don't want to alienate the guy and ruin any chance I might have to have a positive influence on him and his kids, but at the same time, I do feel like I need to say *something.* If nothing else, a comment about trying to pull the guys off the court would probably be in order.

I'd love to hear a few thoughts. I'm heading out to the gym right now, so don't expect me to clarify anything for a couple of hours.

--Ben

[EagleFan]

Now I can't get that song out of my head:

"Church league softball fist fight..."

[BigJohn&TheLions]

The only way I would approach "John's" father is with the attitude of checking to see if he's alright. If you go to him and criticize he'll shut down and get pissed. You might actually get somewhere if it's more of a "Are you alright? I couldn't believe your reaction the other night. That didn't seem like you..."

Even if he doesn't want to talk about it, it will let him know that people are paying attention...

[Tekneek]

The only thing I can speak to is his attempt to coax the team off the court. He needs to understand that he is not the coach. Furthermore, that the league is there for everyone to have a good time, fellowship, and become better people (and maybe even better basketball players, as well). It is not a time to have confrontations or opportunity to upstage the ref, you (or any coach), or the league itself. An outburst by a kid is one thing, but adults can, should, and even must, set the right example. It's not the NBA Finals, so even if they do miss fouls everyone is human and there's no need to fly off the handle about it.

As to the personal matters, I wish I had some insight into how to address that. I am comfortable with addressing the public matter, but not the potential private issues. Perhaps laying down the law about how to act appropriately toward YOUR team and a CHURCH basketball league can naturally lead into the other discussion. Have you never seen this rage displayed in public before?

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by BigJohn&TheLions

The only way I would approach "John's" father is with the attitude of checking to see if he's alright. If you go to him and criticize he'll shut down and get pissed. You might actually get somewhere if it's more of a "Are you alright? I couldn't believe your reaction the other night. That didn't seem like you..."

Even if he doesn't want to talk about it, it will let him know that people are paying attention...

I think this might be a good approach although with more of an emphasis on the getting the guys to leave the court. To me that needs to be addressed one way or another by you as the coach, I feel.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

The only thing I can speak to is his attempt to coax the team off the court. He needs to understand that he is not the coach.

I agree with BigJohn, but I also think this needs to be adressed. But, since you are long time friends, I'm sure he will be reasonable if you approach him fairly.

[NoMyths]

A very thoughtful post and consideration, Ben. Hope your course of action goes well...we need more folks looking out for each other.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Let's see here ...

1)a parent trying to pull the team off the court is the biggest no-no of the litter AFAIC.
I agree with some of the other posters, that needs to be addressed directly.

2)The player technicals are addressed within the confines of the rules of the game, so to some degree that's been dealt with. From a team standpoint, I can only suggest addressing it in a context appropriate to what you do with any other team rules/conduct issue.

3) I generally lean toward "once competition begins, that's the context for anything else that happens". In other words, it's not in my nature to consider any of the events in a church league in a context any different than a high school game or a college club game or whatever. Other people view those things differently, it's just that I don't, so I'm at a bit of a loss to recommend anything other than "deal with it as defined by the rules" - be those team rules, league rules, or whatever.

The one missing detail that I believe is relevant is the quality of the officiating overall, outside of this one incident. Okay, so there's a consensus that the reaction to the collision was unwarranted ... but how about in the context of the officiating overall? Was this a case where the refs got something right after blowing calls for 3 qtrs?
A no-call by a crew that had been calling touch fouls all evening? My reaction to the parent thing with the refs depends heavily on how in/out of line the officating had been overall. (what I'm wondering is how much of this was "the last straw").

[thealmighty]

Let me be one to take another tact, and of course you can view this as you see fit, as I don't really know what you do exactly, except from some posts around here...


As a youth minister, I feel you are more involved in this young man's life than any other regular coach he may have. It seems to me that the son should be your first concern and that the pattern of his behavior over the years suggests, as noted, an underlying problem that still has not been dealt with. This anger thing will only escalate until either there is a big fight or some other type of action that costs this boy dearly or, someone cares enough to deal with the problem directly.

Praying is great, I do it all the time. "Hoping to work on it" sounds like it hasn't happened. Seems like maybe this is a learned behavior from father to son. It can stem from abuse, more likely verbal than physical, though you never know.

This is some rambling shit on my part, so let me just get to the point. Basketball games, officiating, etc..., to me, have NOTHING to do with the problem at its core. I totally agree with your wife. Seems she may have some insight you do not based on her non-coach/basketball status. As a youth minister, this boy's future could be in the balance right now and you could make a HUGE difference in his next 20 years if you address the real issue NOW.

Sometimes friends have to be the one to say the tough things. Sometimes it's a minister or teacher or coach. You are all these things. The boy's the thing, not the parent, imho.

P.S.- I have been a coach for 12 years and, yes, I have called CPS (child protective services) on a parent before. I know it's hard as hell, but we have a responsibility to our charges. (I say that as a reference, not a plea to make that call).

I hope that heps a bit in some way.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by BigJohn&TheLions

The only way I would approach "John's" father is with the attitude of checking to see if he's alright. If you go to him and criticize he'll shut down and get pissed. You might actually get somewhere if it's more of a "Are you alright? I couldn't believe your reaction the other night. That didn't seem like you..."

Even if he doesn't want to talk about it, it will let him know that people are paying attention...

Good word. The only problem with that specific quote is that, well, it did seem like him. I've never seen him blow up quite like he did last night, but it didn't shock me, either. Excellent thought on him knowing that people are paying attention, though.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

Have you never seen this rage displayed in public before?

As mentioned in the previous response, no, but it wasn't shocking, either. Having known him for a while, I sort of figured that he had the capacity for this sort of thing.

[Anthony]

do you know him well enough to ask him out for drinks? if so then that's what i'd do. if the setting is casual enough he might be more open to talking because it wouldn't be like you were confronting him. the setting would be just two married guys talking over some beer. maybe you can ask for his permission to talk to his son privately.

if he says to fuck off then that'd be the end of that.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Let's see here ...

1)a parent trying to pull the team off the court is the biggest no-no of the litter AFAIC.
I agree with some of the other posters, that needs to be addressed directly.

Several of you have agreed with my gut instinct. Maybe it is a guy/girl thing, but my wife didn't even see me having a strong leg to stand on, while I saw it as the strongest leg I have. Interesting.

2)The player technicals are addressed within the confines of the rules of the game, so to some degree that's been dealt with. From a team standpoint, I can only suggest addressing it in a context appropriate to what you do with any other team rules/conduct issue.

The last time a kid got two techs in a game (last season), he sat for the entire first half of the next game. (There are only seven kids on the team, and being church league, everyone plays pretty much equal time barring foul trouble or punitive measures.) I may come down harder on "John", though. In the other case, the two were the only two techs he'd gotten all year long (and he has none this year, either). John has, oh, five or six in the five or six games we've played this year.

The one missing detail that I believe is relevant is the quality of the officiating overall, outside of this one incident. Okay, so there's a consensus that the reaction to the collision was unwarranted ... but how about in the context of the officiating overall? Was this a case where the refs got something right after blowing calls for 3 qtrs?
A no-call by a crew that had been calling touch fouls all evening? My reaction to the parent thing with the refs depends heavily on how in/out of line the officating had been overall. (what I'm wondering is how much of this was "the last straw").

The officiating was what you might expect for church league. After all, these are the guys who can't even cut it as high school refs. That being said, they *are* pretty consistent. The same two guys ref pretty much every league game. In games such as last night's when the players are pretty good for guys not on the team at the high school, they let 'em play, and they had been. Some bad calls had gone our way, and some bad calls had gone the other team's way as well. It was pretty even, had been called loosely, and really shouldn't have been "the last straw."

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by thealmighty

As a youth minister, I feel you are more involved in this young man's life than any other regular coach he may have. It seems to me that the son should be your first concern and that the pattern of his behavior over the years suggests, as noted, an underlying problem that still has not been dealt with. This anger thing will only escalate until either there is a big fight or some other type of action that costs this boy dearly or, someone cares enough to deal with the problem directly.

Good word there. Yes, he has been very involved in the ministry that I lead since 7th grade. It so happens that his church has had 4 or 5 different youth ministers during that time period, so he's definitely more connected to me than the current youth minister at his church (who, by the way, announced his resignation, effective at the end of this school year, a couple of weeks ago ).

Praying is great, I do it all the time. "Hoping to work on it" sounds like it hasn't happened. Seems like maybe this is a learned behavior from father to son. It can stem from abuse, more likely verbal than physical, though you never know.

My specific concern back when he was in middle school was that John was *very* physically aggressive when remotely teased or challenged--even toward the girls. After what I saw last night, I have to admit that even physical abuse wouldn't be a shocker, although I hadn't really considered it before then.

Basketball games, officiating, etc..., to me, have NOTHING to do with the problem at its core.

I definitely agree there. Some of the other situations that caused my concern for this kid have had nothing to do with basketball, or even athletic competition.

I totally agree with your wife. Seems she may have some insight you do not based on her non-coach/basketball status. As a youth minister, this boy's future could be in the balance right now and you could make a HUGE difference in his next 20 years if you address the real issue NOW.

Sometimes friends have to be the one to say the tough things. Sometimes it's a minister or teacher or coach. You are all these things. The boy's the thing, not the parent, imho.

Ugh, that is NOT what I wanted to hear, although you're probably right.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

do you know him well enough to ask him out for drinks? if so then that's what i'd do. if the setting is casual enough he might be more open to talking because it wouldn't be like you were confronting him. the setting would be just two married guys talking over some beer. maybe you can ask for his permission to talk to his son privately.

if he says to fuck off then that'd be the end of that.

Yeah. I definitely know him well enough for that, although I don't drink beer. I drink some pretty sissy-fied French wines, believe it or not. I'm no threat to ever become an alcoholic--I can't afford to indulge my fairly-expensive tastes in alcohol more than a few times a month.

[Ben E Lou]

All, thanks for the feedback. I appreciate helping me get my hands around this. I know I'm too close to the situation to be fully objective about it, as is my wife.

[JW]

I think there are a lot of good comments there. And for those who may be surprised, church league ball can be pretty nasty.

The last fight I was in, was about 10 years ago in a church league basketball game. My church team was taking on the local 'big' church, which has a lot of tall young guys, and we nearly beat them, which really pissed them off, since we were shorter, older, but smarter guys. They got really rough as the game went on and they couldn't put us away. They had one really tall, really good, really rough player.

Right at the end, with the game no longer in doubt, one of their guys was shooting free throws, and their big guy who happened to be beside me as we waited, told the shooter out loud to deliberately miss, that he would get the rebound and dunk one. I told him if he got the ball and tried that, I was going to put him on the floor. Hey, I'm old school, and they were jerks. He was about 6-6, I"m 6, the ball did come off, he did get the rebound over me, and I did put him on the floor when he went up with the ball. Another one of them grabbed me, and there was a big scuffle and a few punches. Everyone supposedly made up, and the jerks -- we were on their home court -- asked me to say the prayer. So I prayed that they would learn humility, which pissed them off again, lol. Anyway, church league sports can be very rough.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Several of you have agreed with my gut instinct. Maybe it is a guy/girl thing, but my wife didn't even see me having a strong leg to stand on, while I saw it as the strongest leg I have. Interesting.

The last time a kid got two techs in a game (last season), he sat for the entire first half of the next game. (There are only seven kids on the team, and being church league, everyone plays pretty much equal time barring foul trouble or punitive measures.) I may come down harder on "John", though. In the other case, the two were the only two techs he'd gotten all year long (and he has none this year, either). John has, oh, five or six in the five or six games we've played this year.

The officiating was what you might expect for church league. After all, these are the guys who can't even cut it as high school refs. That being said, they *are* pretty consistent. The same two guys ref pretty much every league game. In games such as last night's when the players are pretty good for guys not on the team at the high school, they let 'em play, and they had been. Some bad calls had gone our way, and some bad calls had gone the other team's way as well. It was pretty even, had been called loosely, and really shouldn't have been "the last straw."

Barring anything else, 5 or 6 techs in church league basketball(not even high school sanctioned level) is unacceptable. Honestly, next tech and I would have to tell him to leave the team. This isnt the NBA, and hes not Rasheed Wallace. Make him keep the scorebook for a game or two, to see if he can get his attitude in check, and but you also gotta show that you do care about him on a personal level too. Tough situation.

[Flasch186]

i think during your discussion you have to rely heavily ont he religious aspect or else he could get defensive. I would definitely continually mention faith, and tolerance and examples in the church instead of going "you need to..., you should....,etc."

[Ben E Lou]

I don't know about other places, but in this part of metro Atlanta, "church" league is really a misnomer. There are no church attendance requirements whatsoever to play. It is really just a rec league with an opening prayer and a no-cussing rule. As a result, the men's church league that I play in has some pretty serious talent. Pretty much every team has one or two guys that played small college ball, there are two guys in the league that say they played "semi-pro" ball (and if there is such a thing, I believe it), and there are very few guys out there who weren't at least high school varsity-level players. So yeah, it gets very competitive and heated.

The same no-attendance guidelines are the case for the high school league as well. Of the seven kids on the team I coach, I'm pretty sure that only two have *ever* attended church or a youth function at the church they represent--and although I'm the coach, I haven't attended that particular church since I switched churches over 18 months ago myself. We've got three players this year that are at or just a hair below varsity-level talent. In fact, one of the kids who played for me last year as a Junior decided to go out for the varsity at Tucker this year instead of continuing in church ball, and he's now the starting point guard on a 20-3 Tucker team.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by stevew

Barring anything else, 5 or 6 techs in church league basketball(not even high school sanctioned level) is unacceptable. Honestly, next tech and I would have to tell him to leave the team. This isnt the NBA, and hes not Rasheed Wallace. Make him keep the scorebook for a game or two, to see if he can get his attitude in check, and but you also gotta show that you do care about him on a personal level too. Tough situation.

Oh yeah, did I mention that he's the kid that got the team together and begged me to be the coach this year? I had coached in this league for the previous three years, and had decided to take this year off until "John" talked me into doing it again. Yeah....tough situation. I don't know if I even *can* tell him to leave the team. Because it is the team that represents the church that hosts the league, we don't pay a team fee; the kids pay the church directly to play. I'm not sure that I have that authority.

[Flasch186]

he doesnt need to be booted he just needs an adjustment....a gentle one with a firm consequence laid out so that he knows whats coming if the adjustment doesnt take.

[heybrad]

Wow... the timing of this thread.

I just got home from my first experience in church league basketball. Keep in mind that I've played hockey for a long time now, so I've seen just about everything. I figured this would be a nice leisurely game. Hopefully a good workout. I was wrong.

The other team had this huge guy who decided that any attempt to play defense or box him out was an assault on his manhood. I told my team I'd take him down low. I'm strong and have a big body. I could push him off the block and box him out. The complaining to the refs started pretty quickly. Then the yapping at me started.

"You gonna foul me all night, jackass."

I was stunned just from that alone. Again, I'm thinking church league. Now, I'm fairly competitive myself and not really one to back down in sports, so I'm talking right back with him. When the 2nd half came around he came right up to me and says... "You touch me one more time and I swear I'll rip your head off." So I tell him, "I'm not going anywhere."

After the game, the guy was going nuts, telling everybody to get away from him or he was going to kill somebody. I'm still stunned as I type this. This is a church league.

[CentralMassHokie]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

It was bad enough even then that I did something I rarely do--went to his mother and encouraged her to pursue some sort of course of action designed to gain a better understanding of John's temper issues. She assured me at the time that they were aware of it, asked me to pray about it, and said they were hoping to work on it. Over the last few years, it has gotten no better, and may be even worse.

This is meant completely innocently and not intended to start trouble.

Did they actually speak to someone trained in this sort of thing, or have they stuck with the faith-based route?

Sometimes I think people with strong faith can get blinded to the fact that there are people of varying faiths and beliefs who have the ability to help in this situation. Prayer and family aren't always enough, which can be a tough thing to accept.

I'm not sure it's your place to tell them they should seek out help/therapy for their son, but if you're comfortable enough with his mom, it might be something you can at least talk about.

[JW]

Lol, I know just what you mean. I played church league ball (a Baptist league with attendance requirements) just for fun, and most of our games were fun. But there were some teams that just didn't get it, and we had several rough games like the one I described below. I eventually gave up on league basketball in my early 40s because I simply could not find a league where I could just have fun and some friendly competition without some of the people thinking it was the NBA. Now I just run and play tennis with carefully selected friends who are competitive but not insane.

Originally Posted by heybrad

Wow... the timing of this thread.

I just got home from my first experience in church league basketball. Keep in mind that I've played hockey for a long time now, so I've seen just about everything. I figured this would be a nice leisurely game. Hopefully a good workout. I was wrong.

The other team had this huge guy who decided that any attempt to play defense or box him out was an assault on his manhood. I told my team I'd take him down low. I'm strong and have a big body. I could push him off the block and box him out. The complaining to the refs started pretty quickly. Then the yapping at me started.

"You gonna foul me all night, jackass."

I was stunned just from that alone. Again, I'm thinking church league. Now, I'm fairly competitive myself and not really one to back down in sports, so I'm talking right back with him. When the 2nd half came around he came right up to me and says... "You touch me one more time and I swear I'll rip your head off." So I tell him, "I'm not going anywhere."

After the game, the guy was going nuts, telling everybody to get away from him or he was going to kill somebody. I'm still stunned as I type this. This is a church league.

[cougarfreak]

As a fellow coach (I have been coaching 2 sports in high school at the varsity level for 15 years), I'd approach the father, and politely tell him, it's my job to get on officials, and in the future please let me do MY job. Approach it like you were going to ride the official to get calls later on in the game.

[Dutch]

We play squadron sports, which is probably the exact same thing as church league sports. And it gets pretty rough out there. While I only venture on to the 30 and over basketball teams nowadays. But I still play flag football and soccer regularly. I'm about as agile as a brick wall these days and tend to get into problems with the "younger" guys who assume I can catch a football and then dodge them as they are going for my flag. Wrong! I just catch the football and start running like Forest Gump! And most of the time it's a.) catch the football b.)turn around and c.)slam into defender then d.)get yelled at a lot.

The last game of the season I caught 3 passes in the first half and each one ended in a violent collision. The other team was telling me they were going to get me in the 2nd half if I "hit" any of their players again and they did, after my first catch in the 2nd half I fell over the guy going for my flag and another guy came in late and body slammed me. You know, to teach me a lesson during our flag football game. I tried to laugh it off but they both got in my face and we got into a shouting match and were subsequently thrown out of the game.

I even told them I could not get out of their way and that they should consider getting out of my way, but they didn't learn....poor fellas.

In other news, we ended the season 0-7 or 0-8 or something like that.

[Eaglesfan27]

Back when I was living in New Jersey, I played in a church softball league. It was supposed to be just church goers, but there was one team that was always really ultracompetitive. We were good, but they were better year in and year out. I'll never forget my 4th year on the team we were beating them real good (the first time we ever had a lead on them much less won a game) and one of their players started cursing at the ump over a call that could have gone either way. I didn't see their coach (who was also their pastor) discipline the guy at all. Next inning he throws a punch at our shortstop (who was an absolute stud in the field having played some college ball) and a melee erupted on the field in which I was actually hit.

The point being, I think you need to talk to this guy and/or his dad about addressing his/their anger problem before it erupts even more severely.

[Franklinnoble]

Is "BigJohn" a believer? If he's a man of faith, I recommend using scripture to back up your concerns, specifically with regards to wrath and such.... I find that Bible-based Christians sometimes respond better if they're getting Biblical advice, and not just secular criticism.

"Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. "

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by stevew

Barring anything else, 5 or 6 techs in church league basketball(not even high school sanctioned level) is unacceptable. Honestly, next tech and I would have to tell him to leave the team. This isnt the NBA, and hes not Rasheed Wallace. Make him keep the scorebook for a game or two, to see if he can get his attitude in check, and but you also gotta show that you do care about him on a personal level too. Tough situation.

I agree with this. I've played in a rec league with someone like this, and although we were friends with the guy it could be just pure hell to play with the guy at times.

And not only is it unacceptable, it doesn't help anything. With the team I play with now we have no one like this, and if we ever have an question or concern about the officiating it's much better to simply talk about it with the ref at a break or halftime than to have someone screaming at him.

[Ben E Lou]

Without going into details right now (tired), after a couple more incidents, including a final one tonight, I just got finished talking with "John's" dad about his issues, and I convinced him that John needs to sit out the playoffs, which start on Friday.

[Eaglesfan27]

Sorry to hear that this didn't go well.

[Celeval]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

I don't know about other places, but in this part of metro Atlanta, "church" league is really a misnomer.

Just to echo this - I played in a church softball league in Atlanta where the team I played on was actually my company team.

[Celeval]

Originally Posted by thealmighty

...

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Good word there.

Originally Posted by thealmighty

...

Originally Posted by SkyDog

I definitely agree there.

Originally Posted by thealmighty

...

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Ugh, that is NOT what I wanted to hear, although you're probably right.

Ya know, these are about the exact answers I would expect SkyDog to give when talking with The Almighty. Huh.