Top racing horses of all time

albionmoonlight · 01-12-2005, 08:31 AM

There are a lot of horse racing fans on this board.

Ever since the Seabiscuit book, I have wondered a bit about the history of the sport, so I am hoping for enlightenment. And a good healthy debate on the board is always a good thing.

So, who are the top horses of all time, and why?

sachmo71 · 01-12-2005, 08:31 AM

Seabiscuit?
Secretariat?

rkmsuf · 01-12-2005, 08:42 AM

As far as the modern day I've never seen a better one than Cigar. He is my all time favorite. I was actually moved to tears the day he lost out in California to Dare and Go after Bailey decided to hook up with Siphon in the front end through like a 44 half.

I also was a big fan of Lure on the turf. Some of the most thrilling races I've ever seen were with him, Paradise Creek and Fourstars Allstars.

For all time there are a host of horses you can make a case for. Man O War is most frequently recognized as the greatest American racehorse.

I'd throw John Henry into mix as well. He was amazing and won something like 39 races in his career.

Tigercat · 01-12-2005, 08:48 AM

Man O War - Easy pick, won something like 21 out of 22 races, placed second in the one he didn't win

Secretariat - 2 time horse of the year, won the triple crown while setting new track records on all three tracks! (i think he also set a world record at belmont)

Cigar - top money winner of all time

QuikSand · 01-12-2005, 08:59 AM

It is hard, of course, to compare across eras. It's also hard to compare across styles of racing -- there were horses who were totally dominant at short distances, some who were better at long distances, and some who were very good at many different distances. Also, how do you measure brilliance (being great or a year, maybe two) versus longetivity? Not easy to do.

Greats from history, off the top of my head:

Man O War (maybe the best ever)
Secretariat (maybe the second claim to said title)
Kelso
Phar Lap
Forego
Native Dancer
Citation
Personal Ensign
...and if you want to really start an argument, try Kincsem (an Easters European filly who beat the best in Europe and retired unbeaten in the 1870s -- how good was she?)

And from more recent times:
Cigar
John Henry
Skip Away

QuikSand · 01-12-2005, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

As far as the modern day I've never seen a better one than Cigar. He is my all time favorite. I was actually moved to tears the day he lost out in California to Dare and Go after Bailey decided to hook up with Siphon in the front end through like a 44 half.

I agree about Cigar - best I have seen.

I believe the first half mile against Siphon was run in under 42 seconds... absolutely blistering and suicidal pace scenario.

rkmsuf · 01-12-2005, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuikSand

I agree about Cigar - best I have seen.

I believe the first half mile against Siphon was run in under 42 seconds... absolutely blistering and suicidal pace scenario.

That g-damn Bailey. He was never the same after that.

Breeze · 01-12-2005, 09:11 AM

Affirmed won a triple crown against another good horse Aladar.

Breeze · 01-12-2005, 09:12 AM

And I think Ruffian was the fillie that had a great future before breaking a leg in a exhibition race.

Raiders Army · 01-12-2005, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuikSand

It is hard, of course, to compare across eras. It's also hard to compare across styles of racing -- there were horses who were totally dominant at short distances, some who were better at long distances, and some who were very good at many different distances. Also, how do you measure brilliance (being great or a year, maybe two) versus longetivity? Not easy to do.

Greats from history, off the top of my head:

Man O War (maybe the best ever)
Secretariat (maybe the second claim to said title)
Kelso
Phar Lap
Forego
Native Dancer
Citation
Personal Ensign
...and if you want to really start an argument, try Kincsem (an Easters European filly who beat the best in Europe and retired unbeaten in the 1870s -- how good was she?)

And from more recent times:
Cigar
John Henry
Skip Away

Those were the only two words I saw in that list.

Franklinnoble · 01-12-2005, 09:25 AM

Cigar was probably the greatest I can recall.

Secretariat was immortal... I still get goosebumps watching the tapes of his Belmont race.

Citation was incredible, and somehow often overlooked.

Man O' War was probably the greatest of all time, until Secretariat came along.

I had never heard of Seabiscuit until the book came out, but he was an outstanding horse - but I don't think I'd put him on the Mount Rushmore or anything.

Horse racing ain't what it used to be, that's for sure.

QuikSand · 01-12-2005, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Breeze

And I think Ruffian was the fillie that had a great future before breaking a leg in a exhibition race.

She was indeed that filly, she broke down in a match race at Belmont against Foolish Pleasure. Tragic. In her bona fide racing career (i.e. up until that race) she not only never lost, she never was behind in any race.

Another case of true brilliace... tough to measure against a longer career.

QuikSand · 01-12-2005, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

Man O' War was probably the greatest of all time, even after Secretariat came along.

...in FOFC tradition, fixed that for you.

rkmsuf · 01-12-2005, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuikSand

She was indeed that filly, she broke down in a match race at Belmont against Foolish Pleasure. Tragic. In her bona fide racing career (i.e. up until that race) she not only never lost, she never was behind in any race.

Another case of true brilliace... tough to measure against a longer career.

I believe that filly broke down right in front of the grandstand in quite a gruesome incident.

QuikSand · 01-12-2005, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

I believe that filly broke down right in front of the grandstand in quite a gruesome incident.

Might you be thinking of Go For Wand in the Breeders' Cup (also at Belmontt I think)? That was the most gruesome ever, I suspect.

Ruffian just broke down on the backstretch, I think -- pulled up with dual sesamoid fractures. I don't think it was as graphic as the Go For Wand heartbreak.

Franklinnoble · 01-12-2005, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuikSand

...in FOFC tradition, fixed that for you.

No you didn't.

Take both horses in their prime, all things being equal, and there's no way Man O' War beats Secretariat.

rkmsuf · 01-12-2005, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Might you be thinking of Go For Wand in the Breeders' Cup (also at Belmontt I think)? That was the most gruesome ever, I suspect.

Ruffian just broke down on the backstretch, I think -- pulled up with dual sesamoid fractures. I don't think it was as graphic as the Go For Wand heartbreak.

Yes it was Go For Wand I was thinking of...whoops.

QuikSand · 01-12-2005, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

Take both horses in their prime, all things being equal, and there's no way Man O' War beats Secretariat.

Well, I guess that's settled. Sorry to make a factually incorrect claim.

Tigercat · 01-12-2005, 09:46 AM

Its like comparing Babe Ruth and Barry Bonds. Sure Secretariat has the faster times, but what happens if Man O' War is subject to the same training and new knowledge of racing that Secretariat's trainers have decades later?

Babe Ruth was so dominating at his time that he is head and shoulders above all others. Man O' War is the same.

rkmsuf · 01-12-2005, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Well, I guess that's settled. Sorry to make a factually incorrect claim.

Some people are just on a higher plain.

Senator · 01-12-2005, 10:24 AM

Go for Wand always sticks with me. That was pretty sad. Wasn't that the Breeeders Cup that had several mishaps? I was watching it with my dad but that seems so long ago.

When I was a kid I loved Alydar more than life itself. I just knew he would beat Affirmed, and every race I would be a crying mess because he lost by inches. My dad tells me that he has never seen a kid love a horse so much.

Quik really covered the great ones in this thread. We really are only talking about one type of horse here. I grew up going to Ruidoso every summer, and I got to see the best quarterhorse ever to run Go Man Go, tear it up there.

QuikSand · 01-12-2005, 10:35 AM

Actually, my list above is woefully incomplete with mentioning Dr Fager. He belongs in the conversation as well.

But by all rights, the top two North American race horses in history are "Big Red" and "Big Red," however you order them. The balance of your Mount Rushmore is up for debate.

Franklinnoble · 01-12-2005, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Well, I guess that's settled. Sorry to make a factually incorrect claim.

Hey, I'm just disagreeing with you. You don't have to be a sarcastic, condescending ass about it.

Glengoyne · 01-12-2005, 12:18 PM

What about Hidalgo? No one mentioned Hidalgo.

Critch · 01-12-2005, 01:53 PM

Nijinsky - Won all his races as a two year old, the last horse to win the Triple Crown (The 2000 Guineas, The Derby and The St Leger). Three of his sons won The Derby too, two of grandsons won it.

Other than Nijinsky, I'd add Mill Reef and Shergar to the list of great horses I remember. Red Rum for steeplechasers, just for his three Grand National wins.

QuikSand · 01-12-2005, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Critch

Nijinsky - Won all his races as a two year old, the last horse to win the Triple Crown (The 2000 Guineas, The Derby and The St Leger). Three of his sons won The Derby too, two of grandsons won it.

Another one I'm remiss for overlooking above. Even with a North American focus, his accomplishments were quite impressive.

MrBug708 · 01-12-2005, 03:31 PM

What about Charismatic? Charismatic broke it's leg on the backstretch and was caught at the finish line, but had some devastating runs int he first two races. It was touching to see the jockey jump off the horse immediately and cradle the leg to prevent it from making it worse

rkmsuf · 01-12-2005, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBug708

What about Charismatic? Charismatic broke it's leg on the backstretch and was caught at the finish line, but had some devastating runs int he first two races. It was touching to see the jockey jump off the horse immediately and cradle the leg to prevent it from making it worse

Not even close in terms of greatness.

MrBug708 · 01-12-2005, 03:39 PM

Of course not, but one of those "What could have been"

rkmsuf · 01-12-2005, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Of course not, but one of those "What could have been"

There are thousands of those.

I never regarded that horse as being all that fast or great. Product of a weak 3 year old crop.

QuikSand · 01-12-2005, 11:02 PM

Charismatic also benefitted by really developing at the right time as a 3yo -- the "first race" you describe (the Kentucky Derby) was something like his seventh race as a three year old, which is downright crazy in modern racing. He had not managed a particuarly noteworthy finish the whole year, except for beating an allowance field, and a fourth place (I think) in the Santa Anita Derby that year. Then he won the Lexington pretty impressively, against a field of nothing, and was still dismissed at the Derby, where he won at over 30-1 odds. (Holding off Menifee, my pick, by a neck at the wire)

But he seemed to handle racing every two weeks just fine, and managed to put together his career best run over those three races - right when the brightest lights were shining. But by almost nobody's measure a "great" horse in the spirit of this conversation - just a nice story, mostly.

But if you want to talk about "what could have been" we could talk about Point Given - maybe the single most talented colt to run in the last decade's worth of Triple Crowns -- but for a weird race in the Derby where he probably ran too close to the lead for his tastes, he might have been the one to grab all three. By the time the Belmont came, he was a man against boys against that field - ouch.

Franklinnoble · 01-12-2005, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuikSand

But if you want to talk about "what could have been" we could talk about Point Given - maybe the single most talented colt to run in the last decade's worth of Triple Crowns -- but for a weird race in the Derby where he probably ran too close to the lead for his tastes, he might have been the one to grab all three. By the time the Belmont came, he was a man against boys against that field - ouch.

On this, we agree. Point Given was a beast, and I wish he had raced for a little longer.

Senator · 01-13-2005, 06:04 AM

Bob Baffet is the Mike Martz of horse racing trainers.

QuikSand · 01-13-2005, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Senator

Bob Baffet is the Mike Martz of horse racing trainers.

I'm not sure I follow. Owners hire Bob Baffert to win the Kentucky Derby. He has won the Kentucky Derby three times in a thoroughbred training career that spans no more than 15 years. That is a positively unreal accomplishment.

Assuming you're talking about the Mike Martz that we all like to pick on for making boneheaded moves despite being surrounded by great talent -- sure, Baffert has made a few questionable decisions, but he's hardly worthy of picking on like that. A track record of great success like his shouldn't be sloughed off because Monarchos ran by his horse(s) that day.

albionmoonlight · 01-13-2005, 08:28 AM

This is just the sort of education that I had hoped to get.

QuikSand · 01-13-2005, 08:42 AM

Back to Seabiscuit, for a moment.

The movie obviously glorified the horse and his career -- yes, he was insanely popular (really even beyond what we can gather from the movie), and yes he did have a number of very worthy triumphs, including the Pimlico match race over War Admiral (a horse still viewed as the superior runner overall by most historians) and the eventual win in the Big 'Cap.

But what gets lost in the storytelling (even in the book, but definitely in the movie) is that Seabiscuit lost fairly regularly, even when he was at or near the top of his game. It's not a big deal, it's what horses do -- but movie viewers might have the impression that this plucky horse came from nowhere, finally got into the hands of the right people, and beat every one except Rosemont in the Big 'Cap. Not quite true. 'Biscuit had two dominant racing seasons, winning 11 of 15 as a 4yo colt, and 6 of 10 as a 5yo horse -- both very impressive by most any standard -- but the movie doesn't go into detail about those eight losses while he was essentially at his best. His lifetime record was a solid 33 wins in 89 starts -- very good, and certainly corrupted by being run too often while young, but generally speaking not the strike rate of the all-time great champions.

Senator · 01-13-2005, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Assuming you're talking about the Mike Martz that we all like to pick on for making boneheaded moves despite being surrounded by great talent -- sure, Baffert has made a few questionable decisions, but he's hardly worthy of picking on like that. A track record of great success like his shouldn't be sloughed off because Monarchos ran by his horse(s) that day.

Well, I hope Mr. Baffert doesn't take this too personally. I was really just tying into the humorous Martz thread from above.

I forgot when we start talking ponies, you really get fired up.

Franklinnoble · 01-13-2005, 10:48 AM

D. Wayne Lukas is the Jim Mora of horse racing.

Senator · 01-13-2005, 10:52 AM

01-12-2005, 08:42 AM	#3
rkmsuf Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2001	As far as the modern day I've never seen a better one than Cigar. He is my all time favorite. I was actually moved to tears the day he lost out in California to Dare and Go after Bailey decided to hook up with Siphon in the front end through like a 44 half. I also was a big fan of Lure on the turf. Some of the most thrilling races I've ever seen were with him, Paradise Creek and Fourstars Allstars. For all time there are a host of horses you can make a case for. Man O War is most frequently recognized as the greatest American racehorse. I'd throw John Henry into mix as well. He was amazing and won something like 39 races in his career. __________________ "Don't you have homes?" -- Judge Smales

01-12-2005, 08:59 AM	#5
QuikSand lolzcat Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Annapolis, Md	It is hard, of course, to compare across eras. It's also hard to compare across styles of racing -- there were horses who were totally dominant at short distances, some who were better at long distances, and some who were very good at many different distances. Also, how do you measure brilliance (being great or a year, maybe two) versus longetivity? Not easy to do. Greats from history, off the top of my head: Man O War (maybe the best ever) Secretariat (maybe the second claim to said title) Kelso Phar Lap Forego Native Dancer Citation Personal Ensign ...and if you want to really start an argument, try Kincsem (an Easters European filly who beat the best in Europe and retired unbeaten in the 1870s -- how good was she?) And from more recent times: Cigar John Henry Skip Away Last edited by QuikSand : 01-12-2005 at 09:00 AM.

01-12-2005, 10:24 AM	#21
Senator FOFC's Elected Representative Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The stars at night; are big and bright	Go for Wand always sticks with me. That was pretty sad. Wasn't that the Breeeders Cup that had several mishaps? I was watching it with my dad but that seems so long ago. When I was a kid I loved Alydar more than life itself. I just knew he would beat Affirmed, and every race I would be a crying mess because he lost by inches. My dad tells me that he has never seen a kid love a horse so much. Quik really covered the great ones in this thread. We really are only talking about one type of horse here. I grew up going to Ruidoso every summer, and I got to see the best quarterhorse ever to run Go Man Go, tear it up there. __________________ "i have seen chris simms play 4-5 times in the pros and he's very clearly got it. he won't make a pro bowl this year, but it'll come. if you don't like me saying that, so be it, but its true. we'll just have to wait until then" imettrentgreen "looking at only ten games, and oddly using a median only, leaves me unmoved generally" - Quiksand Last edited by Senator : 01-12-2005 at 10:25 AM.

01-13-2005, 06:04 AM	#33
Senator FOFC's Elected Representative Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The stars at night; are big and bright	Bob Baffet is the Mike Martz of horse racing trainers. __________________ "i have seen chris simms play 4-5 times in the pros and he's very clearly got it. he won't make a pro bowl this year, but it'll come. if you don't like me saying that, so be it, but its true. we'll just have to wait until then" imettrentgreen "looking at only ten games, and oddly using a median only, leaves me unmoved generally" - Quiksand

01-13-2005, 10:52 AM	#39
Senator FOFC's Elected Representative Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The stars at night; are big and bright	lmao __________________ "i have seen chris simms play 4-5 times in the pros and he's very clearly got it. he won't make a pro bowl this year, but it'll come. if you don't like me saying that, so be it, but its true. we'll just have to wait until then" imettrentgreen "looking at only ten games, and oddly using a median only, leaves me unmoved generally" - Quiksand

01-12-2005, 08:31 AM	#2
sachmo71 The boy who cried Trout Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: TX	Seabiscuit? Secretariat?

01-12-2005, 08:48 AM	#4
Tigercat College Starter Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Federal Way, WA	Man O War - Easy pick, won something like 21 out of 22 races, placed second in the one he didn't win Secretariat - 2 time horse of the year, won the triple crown while setting new track records on all three tracks! (i think he also set a world record at belmont) Cigar - top money winner of all time

01-12-2005, 09:11 AM	#8
Breeze Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Northern Suburbs of ATL	Affirmed won a triple crown against another good horse Aladar.

01-12-2005, 09:12 AM	#9
Breeze Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Northern Suburbs of ATL	And I think Ruffian was the fillie that had a great future before breaking a leg in a exhibition race.

01-12-2005, 09:25 AM	#11
Franklinnoble Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Placerville, CA	Cigar was probably the greatest I can recall. Secretariat was immortal... I still get goosebumps watching the tapes of his Belmont race. Citation was incredible, and somehow often overlooked. Man O' War was probably the greatest of all time, until Secretariat came along. I had never heard of Seabiscuit until the book came out, but he was an outstanding horse - but I don't think I'd put him on the Mount Rushmore or anything. Horse racing ain't what it used to be, that's for sure.

01-12-2005, 09:46 AM	#19
Tigercat College Starter Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Federal Way, WA	Its like comparing Babe Ruth and Barry Bonds. Sure Secretariat has the faster times, but what happens if Man O' War is subject to the same training and new knowledge of racing that Secretariat's trainers have decades later? Babe Ruth was so dominating at his time that he is head and shoulders above all others. Man O' War is the same.

01-12-2005, 10:35 AM	#22
QuikSand lolzcat Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Annapolis, Md	Actually, my list above is woefully incomplete with mentioning Dr Fager. He belongs in the conversation as well. But by all rights, the top two North American race horses in history are "Big Red" and "Big Red," however you order them. The balance of your Mount Rushmore is up for debate.

01-12-2005, 12:18 PM	#24
Glengoyne Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Fresno, CA	What about Hidalgo? No one mentioned Hidalgo.

01-12-2005, 01:53 PM	#25
Critch lolzcat Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Herndon, VA	Nijinsky - Won all his races as a two year old, the last horse to win the Triple Crown (The 2000 Guineas, The Derby and The St Leger). Three of his sons won The Derby too, two of grandsons won it. Other than Nijinsky, I'd add Mill Reef and Shergar to the list of great horses I remember. Red Rum for steeplechasers, just for his three Grand National wins.

01-12-2005, 03:31 PM	#27
MrBug708 Head Coach Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Whittier	What about Charismatic? Charismatic broke it's leg on the backstretch and was caught at the finish line, but had some devastating runs int he first two races. It was touching to see the jockey jump off the horse immediately and cradle the leg to prevent it from making it worse

01-12-2005, 03:39 PM	#29
MrBug708 Head Coach Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Whittier	Of course not, but one of those "What could have been"

01-12-2005, 11:02 PM	#31
QuikSand lolzcat Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Annapolis, Md	Charismatic also benefitted by really developing at the right time as a 3yo -- the "first race" you describe (the Kentucky Derby) was something like his seventh race as a three year old, which is downright crazy in modern racing. He had not managed a particuarly noteworthy finish the whole year, except for beating an allowance field, and a fourth place (I think) in the Santa Anita Derby that year. Then he won the Lexington pretty impressively, against a field of nothing, and was still dismissed at the Derby, where he won at over 30-1 odds. (Holding off Menifee, my pick, by a neck at the wire) But he seemed to handle racing every two weeks just fine, and managed to put together his career best run over those three races - right when the brightest lights were shining. But by almost nobody's measure a "great" horse in the spirit of this conversation - just a nice story, mostly. But if you want to talk about "what could have been" we could talk about Point Given - maybe the single most talented colt to run in the last decade's worth of Triple Crowns -- but for a weird race in the Derby where he probably ran too close to the lead for his tastes, he might have been the one to grab all three. By the time the Belmont came, he was a man against boys against that field - ouch.

01-13-2005, 08:28 AM	#35
albionmoonlight Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: North Carolina	This is just the sort of education that I had hoped to get.

01-13-2005, 08:42 AM	#36
QuikSand lolzcat Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Annapolis, Md	Back to Seabiscuit, for a moment. The movie obviously glorified the horse and his career -- yes, he was insanely popular (really even beyond what we can gather from the movie), and yes he did have a number of very worthy triumphs, including the Pimlico match race over War Admiral (a horse still viewed as the superior runner overall by most historians) and the eventual win in the Big 'Cap. But what gets lost in the storytelling (even in the book, but definitely in the movie) is that Seabiscuit lost fairly regularly, even when he was at or near the top of his game. It's not a big deal, it's what horses do -- but movie viewers might have the impression that this plucky horse came from nowhere, finally got into the hands of the right people, and beat every one except Rosemont in the Big 'Cap. Not quite true. 'Biscuit had two dominant racing seasons, winning 11 of 15 as a 4yo colt, and 6 of 10 as a 5yo horse -- both very impressive by most any standard -- but the movie doesn't go into detail about those eight losses while he was essentially at his best. His lifetime record was a solid 33 wins in 89 starts -- very good, and certainly corrupted by being run too often while young, but generally speaking not the strike rate of the all-time great champions.

01-13-2005, 10:48 AM	#38
Franklinnoble Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Placerville, CA	D. Wayne Lukas is the Jim Mora of horse racing.

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