Top 5 Shortstops

[CentralMassHokie]

If you want to compare, just use OPS+, which is park and league adjusted. So Jeter (or anyone's OPS) is adjusted for their park, and then compared to the league level of offense.

Or use the DT Cards at Baseball Prospectus, which adjust for the season and for all-time, attempting to allow you to compare folks on a level playing field.

I'll completely admit to not remember how good Larkin was. Jeter's peak ('99) is better than Larkin's peak ('95), but Larkin put up about 12 years in a row where he was really good ('89 - 00).

Combine that with his fielding and Larkin is obviously the better ballplayer over his career. In fact, I'm going to revise my original "he's a fringe HOF" and say that he's not a first-ballot HOF, but he's probably deserving.

If Nomar could bounce back and put up 3 or 4 2002 level seasons, mixed in with a couple of 2003 level seasons, he'd probably pass Larkin.

Jeter would need to put up a run of seasons better than his 2003 season to pass Larkin. That's hard to imagine, since they would be a run of seasons that are his second best ever.

Using Baseball-Reference's HOF monitor, Larkin's at a 118.5, Jeter's at a 132, and Nomar's at a 115. The higher the number, the more likely to be enshrined. Jeter's numbers are hugely skewed by his appearance on the Yankees LCS and World Series teams, and I don't think they'll hold as much weight due to the Yankees payroll.

Nomar's going to pass Larkin with another decent season. Jeter would be a good bit behind if you docked him playoff points.

Using the HOF Standards measure (pretty much based on counting stats), Jeter's at 42.9, Larkin's at 46.9, and Garciaparra's at 44.9. 50 is sort of the edge of the HOF.

Larkin's had the best career, Garciaparra's peak was so high that even missing a season and a half to injury keeps him close, and Jeter pulls up the back.

Jeter's still good - and one of the top 5 SS in baseball - but he's probably got a ways to go to catch Larkin or Nomar.

[Bomber]

Why bother comparing those guys overall careers now? Larkin is 40, his career should look more impressive than Jeter (30) and Garciaparra (31).

Similar batters to Jeter through age 30 (the * denotes HoFer):
1. Alan Trammell (901)
2. Arky Vaughan (874) *
3. Roberto Alomar (871)
4. Joe Torre (865)
5. Ryne Sandberg (863) *
6. Travis Jackson (858) *
7. Frankie Frisch (847) *
8. Vern Stephens (846)
9. Bobby Doerr (839) *
10. Joe Cronin (837) *

Larkin through 40:
# Luke Appling (818) *
# Julio Franco (795)
# Red Schoendienst (787) *
# Jimmie Dykes (783)
# Dave Concepcion (777)
# Jose Cruz (764)
# Tony Phillips (753)
# Tim Raines (749)
# Enos Slaughter (746) *
# Bill Dahlen (746)

Nomar through 30:
1. Ernie Banks (838) *
2. Chick Hafey (825) *
3. Bill Dickey (824) *
4. Travis Jackson (815) *
5. Derek Jeter (814)
6. Tony Oliva (814)
7. Mickey Cochrane (813) *
8. Wally Berger (813)
9. Joe Torre (810)
10. Charlie Gehringer (809) *

[oykib]

Originally Posted by Shorty3281

Jeter will never be league MVP

NEVER

He should have had Pudge Rodriguez's MVP in 1999. He wasn't just the best player in the league that year. He was a fair margin better while playing on the best team.

[CentralMassHokie]

Originally Posted by oykib

He should have had Pudge Rodriguez's MVP in 1999. He wasn't just the best player in the league that year. He was a fair margin better while playing on the best team.

Not according to Win Shares.

Manny Ramirez
Rafael Palmeiro
Derek Jeter

Though, to be honest, they were within a few points of each other.

[oykib]

Larkin has been a better player than Jeter. Not only that, but he's a dead-bang Hall of Famer and likely first-ballot, AFAIC.

People do not realize how great Larkin actually was. He played in a situation that had very depressed offensive numbers-- not only compared to now, but also compared to more than half of baseball history.

Not only that. But people underestimate the value of a very good to great defensive shortstop.

People accept the game-changing ability of Ozzie Smith or a player like that. But Larkin was significantly better defensively than any regular player in baseball except for Ozzie at SS when he was in his prime.

I think Larkin, like a few other very good all-around players will also be hurt because Hall voters seem to like specialists.

These guys are all HoFers to me:

Tim Raines
Barry Larkin
Bernie Williams

But they will all be hurt because they were the kind of guy to hit 25 homers rather than thirty and play very good defense rather than great or to steal 25 bases rather than 30 or 40.

[CentralMassHokie]

Raines should be first ballot.

Larkin, I think should get in, but he's not a first ballot guy.

Williams I need to think more about. I don't think his peak, offensively, was long enough or high enough to be a definite HOF. And his defense has always been overrated. If he hadn't been on the Yankees, he wouldn't even be in the discussion.

[Bomber]

Originally Posted by CentralMassHokie

Raines should be first ballot.

Larkin, I think should get in, but he's not a first ballot guy.

Williams I need to think more about. I don't think his peak, offensively, was long enough or high enough to be a definite HOF. And his defense has always been overrated. If he hadn't been on the Yankees, he wouldn't even be in the discussion.

You really think Raines is first ballot? He doesn't really have that big time career stat the voters seem to like. However, I agree about Williams and his peak not being long enough. Injuries just caught up to him too quickly. Its a shame because he's a class act and one of my favorite players of all time.

[Vince]

Originally Posted by oykib

Jeter's had a better career-- as has Nomar-- than anyone on this list besides A-Rod. As a matter of fact, it's not even close for anyone on this list besides Tejada.

I'm not going to pretend to be unbiased -- I severely dislike Derek Jeter. He is a below-average defensive shortstop who hits the ball well, and is over-hyped as one of the 'best players in the game.' I just don't think he's one of the best shortstops in the game -- he's a great hitter who happens to stand where the shortstop usually plays.

EDIT -- And I'm not really sure why I forgot Nomar.

[CentralMassHokie]

Originally Posted by Bomber

You really think Raines is first ballot? He doesn't really have that big time career stat the voters seem to like. However, I agree about Williams and his peak not being long enough. Injuries just caught up to him too quickly. Its a shame because he's a class act and one of my favorite players of all time.

I don't think Raines will be first ballot.

But he should be first ballot. Possibly the most underrated player in recent history.

If you swap Bernie Williams and Tim Raines, there's not even a question that Raines goes in on the first ballot. Instead, he was stuck playing in Montreal for the bulk of his career.

[lynchjm24]

You guys are way too high on Renteria. That's one huge year he's had and the rest are 3 levels below that.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by lynchjm24

You guys are way too high on Renteria. That's one huge year he's had and the rest are 3 levels below that.

Yeah, but ssshhh... don't tell Boston fans as they'll find that out soon enough.

SI

[CentralMassHokie]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Yeah, but ssshhh... don't tell Boston fans as they'll find that out soon enough.

SI

Believe me, I already know it. I wanted Julio Lugo, and then to spend money on Pedro.