My Idea for Improvement of Football Games

[Abe Sargent]

For years, I've played football games and I've felt that something was missing. Madden, FOF, NCAA, whatever. A player, in real life, is about more than the numbers. Even more than the intangibles. And this is never represented well in football sims and such.

I mean, the scouts stats supposedly tell you everything. So, the only thing you know about a lineman is pass rush, run stopping and endurance? Even if you have 15 stats at your command for a player, they are more than that.

As such, I have breainstormed a list of skills and abilities called "Traits" that I think a football game needs to implement. FOF, for eample, already has one trait - Fan Favorite. These would add a new level of depth and realism to the game and to management. Some traits can only be possessed by players at certain positions. Other traits can be learned, evolved or even lost. As a player ages, for example, they might lose some of the more physical traits. But gain different ones. And so forth. In order to show what I mean, I present a brainstormed list of traits with many having examples of real players with that trait in parentheses after the trait is listed.


Grizzled Veteran - Less likely to suffer stats drop. Less likely to retire based on age. (Jerry Rice, Bruce Matthews)

Brittle - Takes longer to heal from injuries.

Glass Jaw - Twice as likely to suffer an injury. (Rob Johnson)

Heals Quickly - Takes less time to heal from injury.

Impervious - Less likely to receive any type of injury. Injuries received are one grade lighter than normal (Bruce Matthews, Brett Favre)

Chronic Injury - Chance of gain after a major injury. Injury chane for that body area quadrupled. Greater chance to retire. (Tony Boselli would have Chronic Injury: Shoulder, for example.)

Concussion - Concussion is a "trait" gained after each concussion to count the number of them. So, a player with Concussion: 3 would have had 3 lifetime concussions. The more concussions a person has, the more likely they are to have another, thelonger they'll sit out for each seccessive one, and hte more likely they are to retire. (Steve Young)

Fumble Fingers - Twice as likely to fumble the ball. (Tony Banks)

Pocket Presence - Less likely to be sacked in the pocket. Some sacks turned into incomplete passes or dump off plays. (Dan Marino)


Scrambler - Twice as likely to take off running during a play. Can sometimes be on a bad runner. (Michael Vick)

Improviseur - More likely to create a positive play out of a busted one. (Brett Favre)

Feast or Famine - Passes more likely to connect deep, but also throws more interceptions. (Jeff George)

Streaky - Player goes through wild hot and cold streaks over the course of several games. (Jon Kitna)

Sabateur - Player is significantly more likely to complete a trick play.

Actor - QB is much more likely to succeed on a play action pass. (Peyton Manning).

Drug Addict - Player is more likely to be suspended for drugs. Stages of drug suspension shown as 1, 2, 3, etc. After enough suspensions, player is removed from game (four or five, I forget which) (Bam Morris)

Juicer - Player is more likely to get hit with 4 game suspension. Player will likely retire earlier and suffer stat loss earlier in career. (Lyle Alzado)

Criminal - Player will have a chance (like Criminal: 15% or Criminal 5%, etc) to be caught for committing some crime during the year. Crimes cause suspension for a random length of time. (Randy Moss)

Sticky Hands - Receiver is less likely to drop a ball. (Jerry Rice)

Wraps Up - Defender more likely to wrap up a player and not have him break a tackle. (Peter Boulware)

Wind Master - Kicker ignores weather for kicks. (Steve Christie)

Kick-Off Specialist - For whatever reason, the kicker cannot kick FGs as well as his stats indicate, but is a mammoth Kick-Off Artist. Stats for Kick-Offs increase, but decrease for FGs. (Hayden Epstein)

Buff Kicker - The rare kicker that can actually contribute on special teams by blocking and tackling. Kicker has increased chance of bringing the returner down and breaking blocks on kickoffs and punts. (Todd Sauerbrun)

Levels Hit - Defender who creates a greater chance of injury when tackling. Also has occasional additional chance of getting a red flag. (Brian Dawkins)

Anger - Player is more likely to get a red flag for unsportsmanlike conduct. (Derrick Thomas)

Taunt - Players on opposing team more likely to foul Occasionally gets unsportsmanlike calls themselves. If a player on the opposite team has Anger trait, then any such player has extremely increased chance of causing flagrant fouls and the like. (Shannon Sharpe)

Nose for Ball - Defender is more likely to gather fumbles and pick the ball out of the air (Mike Brown)

Head of Steam - Runner is harder to bring down the farther he runs. (Mike Alstott)

Dodge - Player has increased chance of avoiding tackles but increased chance of fumbling the ball. (Trung Candidate)

Happy Feet - QB has greater chance of tossing picks when the pressure is on.

Worse Follows Bad - When player starts performing poorly, then that player will likely get worse and worse. Harder for that player to rally back. (Ty Detmer)

Rally - Player's stats increase tremendously in the fourth quarter when the team is down. (Jake Plummer)

Fold - Player's stats decrease when ahead in the fourth quarter.

Spotlight - Player's abilities increase in big games (MNF, playoffs, critical game or two late in season) (Jerome Bettis)

Choke - Player's abilities decrease in big games. (Peyton Manning?)

Fade Away - Player's abilities fade over the course of the season.

Loyal - Contracts negotiated at a lower cost to the team.

Wanderlust - Contract negotiated at a higher cost to the current team, to lower costs to other teams. The player wants to move on and see new things.

Wants to Return Home - Player will sign for less and consider more offers from teams close to his home. Some players may adopt a state or region as their home. (Jerry Rice)

Quest for the Ring - Player wants Super Bowl ring so much that he only really considers offers from teams in the playoffs last year. May accept a lower offer as well.

Hometown Hero - Player who plays at or near their hometown. More fans attend the games. Slightly higher chance to be suspended for a behavioral concern. (drugs, crime, laziness)

Needs to Warm Up - Player's stats are poor at the beginning of the game but quickly rise back up after 7-15 minutes.

Prima Donna - Player demands more money at contract time and is less productive in camp. (Randy Moss)

Star - Player is designated as a "star." More fans come to games, player demands more in contracts, must have good stats or be drafted highly. Highly drafted players have good chance at starting with "Star" status.

Superstar - Player is designated as a "superstar." Fan attendance increases signifantly, player demands even more money. A player must be a star on the same team for three years to qualify for Superstar status. A player may lose Superstar status and fall to Star status after a long injury or poor season. A team may not have more than two Superstars - one offense and one defense. (Warren Sapp)

When a player with star or superstar status chancges team, he is downgraded one level. Therefore, if I trade for a Superstar, he starts as a star. And a star loses his status. Note that this would replace the "Fan Favorite" system currently in place in FOF.


Takes Plays Off - Player may take the occasional play off, and performs with minimal effort on that play. (Randy Moss)

Nose for Ball - Defender more likely to cause a fumble than normal. (Sammy Knight)

Nose for Endzone - Offensive Skill Player's stats increase in Red Zone. Player just has a knack for scoring. (Anthony Becht)

Mauler - O Lineman who has a higher chance of gettting a pancake block, thus removing a defender from the rest of the play. May occasionally get a flagrant foul. (Tony Boselli)

Finds Seam - Receiver with a knack for perfectly finding the seam. Completions under 15 yards much more likely. (Wayne Chrebet)

Track Star - When running a straight route, this receiver has a pretty good chance of outrunning the defense. Of course, may not necessarially have a good chance at catching the ball. (James Jett)

Easily Dominated - Lineman has an annoying tendancy to occasionally be schooled by the opposing line for a game. Abilites and stats for that game drop tremendously.

Hacks Ball - When sacking a QB, this defender has a much greater chance of causing a fumble (Jevon Kearse)

Plugs Up the Middle - Interior Defender with an increased chance of making tackles inside the hashmarks, decreased chance outside of them. (Tony Saragosa)

Collapses Pocket - D Lineman who has the ability to occasionally collapse the pocket and allows himself or others to pressure the QB more easily. (Warren Sapp)

Paranoid - Player plays worse when there is a backup with good abilities or stats behind him on the roster.

Competetive - Player is more likely to play well when there is a backup with good abilities or stats behind hom on the roster.

Special Teams Ace - Player has a knack for making big plays on special teams like tackles, blocks, and returns, based on the player's position. (Desmond Howard)


My point is not the skill list, particularly. Any person could add or delete traits as they see fit. But, my point is that such a system would be very welcome in a football game. Very welcome.


-Anxiety

[sony]

Wow this is great.

Spotlight - Player's abilities increase in big games (MNF, playoffs, critical game or two late in season) (Jerome Bettis)

Although I don't agree with Bettis as being a player that plays better in the spotlght. Ray Lewis would be a better fit for that.

[GrantDawg]

Too short a list.

[oykib]

The problem is that most of the 'character' abilities on your list have never been proven.

Most of the guys you chose as 'big-game' performers or warriors are just incredible players. For instance, Curtis Martin is famous for playing through severe injuries, as is Emmitt Smith. But these two guys just happen to be top ten all-time running backs. The truth is not just that these guys have high-pain thresholds, but that at 70% they are still better than 90% of the players at their positiions.

The ones that are in there about injuries are definitely sound. Most of the quarterback ones are very good as well.

[JPhillips]

I think you would have to leave out the drug and criminal stuff for real players. I don't think the player's union would be thrilled to see players labeled as druggies and thugs.

Good list. I agree that FOF and Madden just don't have the feel of real football. I'd like media interaction and a multitude of player responses ala Championship Manager. Wouldn't it be great to see opponents call the Rams soft or the Colts chokers?

[Ragone]

Derrick Thomas was never a anger problem.. he just had that one meltdown game on mnf...

And i guarentee you the nflpa would not allow negative traits such as those and criminal and drug addict and such to be applied to players under their union

[tucker342]

Great start to your list... To impliment some of those you would probably have to get rid of real player names otherwise there is no way the players union would accept some of those....

I would love to see something like that in a sports game.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally posted by tucker342
Great start to your list... To impliment some of those you would probably have to get rid of real player names otherwise there is no way the players union would accept some of those....

I would love to see something like that in a sports game.

Tucker: Right. There are a variety of ways you could implement the traits system. Have only computer generated players have the traits, not the original players. This would have the added bonus of allowing players new to the game to slowly acclimate to the traits system.

Or, you could have fictional players exactly like Jim did this past year. And then we simply edit the files.

Everyone: Whatever. Just don't get hung up on the NFLPA part of the implementation. Or on the "I don't think this player fits X" part, either. They are just used as examples. I haven't done any research, just my impressions from watching and remembering games. Or on the individual traits themselves. I knew that if I posted the idea itself, without alist of traits, people would rightly ask about how I envisioned the list. So I included it.

Is it something that you would like to see? That's what matters.

-Anxiety

[Honolulu Blue]

Impressive list.

Many of your proposed traits are already in FOF as ratings (some are hidden). But I don't like FOF's 100 point ratings system and never have. It's either too precise, or implies a precision that doesn't exist. I liked the bars from FOF Classic better.

I think the best way to implement something like this would be a computer-generated paragraph or two based on the ratings of a player, ala OOTP but improved. This is an example for a receiver that I made up:

"XYZ has good hands and an ability to get open, but he is not fast and won't make many yards after the catch. He is more prone to fumble than most receivers and is not well suited for either kickoff or punt returns. He is loyal and not prone to injuries. Your scouts say he has significant potential for improvement over the next two seasons."

I'd love for Jim to do something like this, but I get the feeling that the answer would be that it would be hard to implement. Your system would be easier to implement, but not quite as informative or easy to read.

[Swaggs]

I would much rather have these things than an NFLPA license.

[Marc Vaughan]

I love the list, we have many of these characteristics in CM - but simulate them via. the players personality rather than simply setting a characteristic trait.

This has the advantage that they are allowed to change over time (for instance most players before more professional the longer they play) and also allows you as a coach to encourage or discourage certain aspects of their character (ie. if you continually discipline someone for 'slacking off' then they'll eventually stop doing so (unless they're thick as a plank)).

The media/personality side of CM still has a long way to evolve though, there's a lot that can be done with it (our next game will show off the potential of this side of things for CM4 a lot better than the initial CM4 release).

[Karim]

Very impressive list. I agree with HB that many (if not all) should be hidden characteristics. It would be our job as GM/head coach to ascertain who suits our team or mold him into the player we want. More accurate scouting reports and play-by-play commentary would help achieve this. A gigantic list of attributes becomes unwieldy.

I also would forego a NFLPA license for something like this, just as long as someone could create real rosters and I could change names of conferences, divisions, title game, team city and nickname.

[wishbone]

It reminds me of the Virtues and Vices in Medieval: Total War. In that game you have the ratings as well as the personality traits and I really start to like or dislike my generals based on their personalities.

I think it would be great in football games, especially ones that don't have an NFLPA license. It would also be interesting to see a game that incorporated negative traits make a huge amount of money. Would the NFLPA decide that they could support it even though they disagree with the concept? Would a player think twice before hitting someone with their car because they don't want to get the criminal: 20% vice?

[fantastic flying froggies]

Originally posted by Swaggs
I would much rather have these things than an NFLPA license.

BINGO !

[sabotai]

*hold down left mouse button*
*drag*
*let go of left mouse button*
*CTRL-C*
*click Start button*
*open Notepad*
*CTRL-V*
*click File*
*click Save*
*enter filename*
*close Notepad*

mwahaha

[Mac Howard]

The problem, Anxiety, isn't introducing characteristics such as this into the game but in producing observable effects that will inform the gamer of their influence in a reasonably realistic manner.

There are four phases to such expansions:

1) introducing the idea
2) producing a realistic effect on game progress
3) communicating that effect to the gamer.
4) providing the gamer with a suitable response

If the gamer is to trust the game so that he can commit himself to it, then the designer must take care of all four phases not just the first.

[Bee]

Originally posted by Marc Vaughan
The media/personality side of CM still has a long way to evolve though, there's a lot that can be done with it (our next game will show off the potential of this side of things for CM4 a lot better than the initial CM4 release).

This sounds great to me. Really looking forward to the next version.

As far as the list goes, I think it's awesome. There are lots of great ideas in there and I hope some of the game developers who stop by here take them and run with it.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by Mac Howard
The problem, Anxiety, isn't introducing characteristics such as this into the game but in producing observable effects that will inform the gamer of their influence in a reasonably realistic manner.

There are four phases to such expansions:

1) introducing the idea
2) producing a realistic effect on game progress
3) communicating that effect to the gamer.
4) providing the gamer with a suitable response

If the gamer is to trust the game so that he can commit himself to it, then the designer must take care of all four phases not just the first.

This is really, really good advice. Well put.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally posted by Mac Howard
The problem, Anxiety, isn't introducing characteristics such as this into the game but in producing observable effects that will inform the gamer of their influence in a reasonably realistic manner.

There are four phases to such expansions:

1) introducing the idea
2) producing a realistic effect on game progress
3) communicating that effect to the gamer.
4) providing the gamer with a suitable response

If the gamer is to trust the game so that he can commit himself to it, then the designer must take care of all four phases not just the first.

You're completely right. And that's why I like this idea so much. I think that it lends itself easily to the other three.

Take, for example, communication of the skill and its effect.

Maybe some rookies, pre-draft, have suspected traits based on tapes and games and such. Some might have them, some may not, others may have hidden traits. Then, after camp, you become aware of their actual traits, (although a few may remain hidden, all suspected traits and many hidden ones are discovered, based on the ability of your scout staff, of course).

Now, if your game has text-based simulations, like FOF, you can simply add in messages. Take Bob Stevenson, for example, a hypothetical WR with Track Star and Sticky Hands - a very potent combination. He doesn't have great stats, but he can catch very well and fly past the defense at times. So, you might normally have this commentary:

"Bob Stevenson catches the pass for 17 yards over the middle."

Now, if the Sticky Hands trait helped him catch that ball, something like:

"Bob Stevenson does it again, catching a nearly uncatchable passl for 17 yards over the middle."

likewise

"Bob Stevenson gets past the cornerback and is wide open"

might become

"Bob Stevenson blows past the cornerback and is wide open. How many times have we seen that?"

And so forth. Some traits do not reflect in game action, so they would not need special communication. Or it would be really easy to see. Take a Superstar at contract time. You might get this message at the top of the contract negotiation screen:

"Because Bob Stevenson is the heart and soul of this team, he wants 20% more money from you."

And so forth. Injuries, suspensions, fines and penalties come with messages that can be easily tailored to the situation. SOme ideas:

"Bob Stevenson was caught smuggling illegal panda into the United States and suspended for 2 games due to this criminal activity."

"Bob Stevenson was apprehended smoking a joint in his car outside a strip club. As this is his second offense, he is suspended for 4 weeks."

"Bob Stevenson was injured in the game this week with a shoulder injury. It would have been more serious if he were a normal man, but he should heal pretty quickly."


So, each trait has a doable way of being seen in the game and having a visable impact upon it. Of course, it will rare to find players with a variety of traits like Bob, but I wanted an easy example. You could use various algorhythms to figure out how many players should have traits, how many, and so forth.

-Anxiety

[Runtheball]

This is one of the best ideas I've seen here on FOFC!!!

I'd also be willing to ditch the NFLPA license in favor of this type of addition. I'm thinking (more like hoping) that many of these traits will be very easy to incorporate into the next FOF/TCY game.

The idea of adding more detail to the play-by-play has been mentioned before, but not nearly often enough! It would make watching the games much more interesting.

The idea of having scouting reports presented in paragraph form rather than the current 100 point rating system (mentioned by Honolulu Blue previously) is also an outstanding idea!

[VPI97]

"Bob Stevenson was injured in the game this week with a shoulder injury. It would have been more serious if he were a normal man, but due to his addiction to a mixture of bourbon and pain killers, he is immune to the effects of the injury. He will continue to terrorize opponents and teammates alike with the steroid induced ferocity that the fans are accustomed to seeing."

[Abe Sargent]

bumpage

-Anxiety

[SunDancer]

I like to hear your guys idea of a "skills" list, and what they would represent, but on player ratings.

[EagleFan]

You can already find most of these players in any given career in something like FOF. It's not about traits, it's about perception. Even in real-life. Brett Favre is not some super human that can't be injured, he has just not been unlucky enough to be injured seriously. All it takes is for a player to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and his career could be over. That is true of every player and I don't want there to be some fake attribute that makes one player into some sort of freakish superman.

All of the 'traits' that are spoken of are given to a player after the fact. It's not like Favre came out of college with a reputation of 'can't get seriously hurt'. He has survived a career without serious injury, thus getting that tag. Unless we think that he would be back in a couple weeks after suffering a Joe Theisman leg break. Same thing with the John Elway late game heroics. He had to do it first to get the reputation.

I don't think there should be viewable attributes that create these kinds of players. Players are labeled based on their results. Go through any one of your FOF careers and you can find these exact kinds of players.

[Vince]

I'll echo the thoughts of most around here and say that this is a phenomenal idea. I like that Mac and Marc have added their two bits as well. I'd be curious to see what Jim thinks of this idea...

[Abe Sargent]

Originally posted by EagleFan
You can already find most of these players in any given career in something like FOF. It's not about traits, it's about perception. Even in real-life. Brett Favre is not some super human that can't be injured, he has just not been unlucky enough to be injured seriously. All it takes is for a player to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and his career could be over. That is true of every player and I don't want there to be some fake attribute that makes one player into some sort of freakish superman.

All of the 'traits' that are spoken of are given to a player after the fact. It's not like Favre came out of college with a reputation of 'can't get seriously hurt'. He has survived a career without serious injury, thus getting that tag. Unless we think that he would be back in a couple weeks after suffering a Joe Theisman leg break. Same thing with the John Elway late game heroics. He had to do it first to get the reputation.

I don't think there should be viewable attributes that create these kinds of players. Players are labeled based on their results. Go through any one of your FOF careers and you can find these exact kinds of players.

If you object to the "skill" traits, okay. But even then, surely you can see value in classifications likes Chronic Injury, Criminal, or Drug Addict, and in attitudes like Prima Donna and Selfish.

No set of numbers accurately classifies a player. I think that skills, attributes, characteristics and attitudes would help flesh out these numbers, at least for me.

(Please remember that the names given are meant for illustriative purposes only. If you disagree with some of those players, fine, but I still stand by some players having game-realted traits that surpass the numbers).

-Anxiety

[The_herd]

I like the list, the only thing I would worry about if they were used in a game is they would appear too often. The less they are used, the more meaning they would have. I would like to hear an opinion from Sabotai, Marc Vaugha, Arlie, or Jim on how realistic it would be to implement a system like this.

One of the things text sims don't seem to do is have players that are TRUELY the heart and soul of his team, like a Ray Lewis or a Brett Favre. All you see is numbers, you don't have a guy who lifts the level of play of the whole team. Some of these things would take text-sims one step closer to acheiving something like this.

Another thing most text-sims don't seem to do is produce players that seem to be a level above even the best players in a sport and revolutionize their position or even the sport itself. These players come along very rarely, but it happens (Mike Vick, Magic Johnson, Jordan, Jerry Rice, A-Rod to name a few). Things like Anxiety posted above are a way for text-sims to make this happen.

[Abe Sargent]

With the recent post on future games, I thought I'd resurrect this thread from last summer.

-Anxiety