"All Those Soccer Tournaments"

[CraigSca]

I've been trying to figure this out for a while now and I'm a bit confused, since most of my soccer knowledge comes from playing CM.

What is the relative importance of all the tournaments worldwide and in Europe? I'm mostly looking for a European perpsective here, but Americans are welcome as well.

I know the World Cup is probably, by far, the biggest. But what's more important, the Champions Cup or the Euro tournament? What about the UEFA Cup (?) vs. the FA cup (English only, right?).

I'm just wondering - do some nations/teams treat some tournaments low on the importance scale while other tournaments define the year (as success or failure) for them?

[CraigSca]

Dola

And one other thing - I've heard some talk about the "one and out" stlye of tournament doesn't necessarily ensure the best team always wins. What's your opinion on that? Does that lessen the impact of a tournament that uses this method?

What about winning via the shootout? Do supporters of the losing club accept this method, or will a loss due to that method always have it's validity questioned?

Thanks for the help - just trying to understand the sport better

[Huckleberry]

Champions' League = Professional Clubs
Euro Competition = National Teams

So those are two that can't really be compared, although I guess they are both at the top for their type in Europe.

UEFA Cup = Continental competition with clubs from all over
FA Cup = English only competition

The UEFA Cup is for good squads that didn't make the Champions' League. The "treble" for any given nation is their National League championship (Premiership title), the domestic cup (the FA Cup is the important one whereas the Carling League Cup is not as prestigious in England), and the Champions' League.

[bhlloy]

UEFA cup vs. the FA Cup is pretty close actually - probably the UEFA but it's a toss up. Champions League is the big one and many teams would sacrifice the domestic cup and even put their league season on the back burner to win in that.

[CraigSca]

Thanks, Huckleberry. So...basically the UEFA cup is made up of second tier clubs? The equivalent of our NIT tournament in College basketball? If you win the UEFA cup, is there a stigma attributed to it? Basically a, "Yes, you won the tournament, but it's not made up of the best teams anyway?"

In general, which is more important (intensely followed) the club tournaments (Champions League) or Euro/World Cup tournaments?

In England, are people forgiving of David Beckham leaving for Real Madrid and root for him when he plays for England, or is there resentment that he left the Premier League?

[SirFozzie]

Ok.. here's the breakdown:

"National" Tournaments (England has the Carling League Cup, and the FA Cup): The FA Cup is the big national tournament, featuring just about every amateur, semi-pro, and professional team in England. This has led to many upsets in past years, as a team of plumbers and repairmen can beat the best teams in the nation, (it's happened). The League Cup is a poor cousin, featuring teams from the four professional divisions in England (the English Premier League, and divisions 1-3). You'll see a lot of big name teams play their 2nd string for the early rounds.

International: The Champions League is the top "club" level tournament. Every european nation sends at least their champion to this tournament. Many power house Euro nations get extra bids, and they send their best league teams. The UEFA Cup is a bit of a poor cousin, as you can get an invite by finishing mid table in the league (I think up until 8th place in the EPL This year), or winning a Cup competition (of course, if you qualify for both the champions League and the UEFA Cup, you enter the Champions League, and the UEFA Cup spot goes to the runner up, or to a team that didn't QUITE qualify for the UEFA Cup via standings. For example, Millwall, which plays in Englands First Division (the 2nd level of play), will play in the UEFA Cup next year, because they lost to Man Utd in the final (ManU of course, is in the Champions League). In the "knockout rounds", it's always two games, with total goals deciding the winner, with away goals counting double.

National Tournaments: World Cup will always be top dog. Behind that is the "continentals", The European Tournament, the Gold Cup here in North America, Copa America for the South Americans, etcetera..

Usually, you've played 120 minutes of soccer before you get to the penalty kicks, and if you can't beat a team in that amount of time, you will admit you didn't deserve to win if you lose out in penalty kicks. In some tournaments,(such as the FA Cup) a draw in the first game (after 90 minutes) mean the two teams will play again, but this time the team who was on the road for the first game, will be the home team for the 2nd game. If they can't settle THAT game, then it goes to penalties. Before a rule change (I think in the 60's).. you would continue to go back and forth (I think once, there was 5 replays of a FA Cup Final before there was a winner).

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Thanks, Huckleberry. So...basically the UEFA cup is made up of second tier clubs? The equivalent of our NIT tournament in College basketball? If you win the UEFA cup, is there a stigma attributed to it? Basically a, "Yes, you won the tournament, but it's not made up of the best teams anyway?"

In general, which is more important (intensely followed) the club tournaments (Champions League) or Euro/World Cup tournaments?

In England, are people forgiving of David Beckham leaving for Real Madrid and root for him when he plays for England, or is there resentment that he left the Premier League?

The UEFA Cup is considered the best of the rest.

Locally, the club tournaments. Nationally, the Euro/World Cup tournaments.. (for example, France's Monaco is in the Champions League final today, and it's a game of a lifetime to Monaco fans, while rival fans may or may not root for Monaco). However, when Les Bleus (France's National team) plays in Euro 2004 games, France will likely shutdown for those 2 1/2 hours.

Beckham was pretty much forced out by Man Yoo, there's a lot of sentiment to bring him back (if not to ManU, to another English team)

[fantastic flying froggies]

Most frenchmen will actually be behind Monaco tonight. Even though technically, Monaco is not France...

[fantastic flying froggies]

dola - the Euro is supposedly the hardest tournament for national teams, even harder than the world cup because all teams are very good.

[SirFozzie]

EuroSnob

(Still treasuring the memory of 3-2 USA over portugal )

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

In the "knockout rounds", it's always two games, with total goals deciding the winner, with away goals counting double.

They don't really count double, it's just the first tiebreaker.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by fantastic flying froggies

dola - the Euro is supposedly the hardest tournament for national teams, even harder than the world cup because all teams are very good.

It might be argued that the Euro tournament is deeper because you avoid the noncompetitive teams from Africa and Asia. I don't buy it, though -- the last World Cup demonstrated that the margins of Europe aren't much better, and when you only have UEFA teams, you're leaving out four squads that are currently in the top ten of the FIFA rankings: Brazil, Argentina, Mexico, and the United States.

[fantastic flying froggies]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

It might be argued that the Euro tournament is deeper because you avoid the noncompetitive teams from Africa and Asia. I don't buy it, though -- the last World Cup demonstrated that the margins of Europe aren't much better, and when you only have UEFA teams, you're leaving out four squads that are currently in the top ten of the FIFA rankings: Brazil, Argentina, Mexico, and the United States.

It's the reason why I said 'supposedly' in my initial post. True, there are no easy matches in the Euro; however, and you're absolutely right, there are some top teams missing.

(You shouldn't use the FIFA rankings though, we all know they don't mean much, as discussed in another thread last week...)

[Mr. Wednesday]

Whatever the deficiencies of the FIFA rankings, I don't think you'd argue that Brazil and Argentina aren't easily top ten teams. Beyond that, Mexico is consistently successful (against everyone but the U.S., it seems), and while most objective observers think the 8th-place ranking for the U.S. is too high, they'd still put us somewhere in the 10-20 range. (is the Euro field 16 or 32?)

[fantastic flying froggies]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

Whatever the deficiencies of the FIFA rankings, I don't think you'd argue that Brazil and Argentina aren't easily top ten teams. Beyond that, Mexico is consistently successful (against everyone but the U.S., it seems), and while most objective observers think the 8th-place ranking for the U.S. is too high, they'd still put us somewhere in the 10-20 range. (is the Euro field 16 or 32?)

The Euro has 16 teams, 4 groups of 4 where the first 2 advance to quarterfinals.

[druez]

The US is a top 10 squad I believe. When young freddie Adu matures we will climb even higher. We've lacked a pure finisher with great first touch for years. I think this kid has it.

[fantastic flying froggies]

Originally Posted by druez

The US is a top 10 squad I believe.

Personnally, I really don't think so but it is hard to judge and compare as they rarely play against european teams...

[druez]

Originally Posted by fantastic flying froggies

Personnally, I really don't think so but it is hard to judge and compare as they rarely play against european teams...

Sigh, I know I wish they did play each other more often. Though in the world cup the US had a great showing and that team we had there is still largely intact.

[BreizhManu]

My personal evaluation of every competition

National Teams Tournaments :

1) World Cup
2) European Cup
3) Copa America
4) African Cup
5) Gold Cup & Asian Cup
6) Oceanian Cup
7) Confederation's Cup (every winner of the cups above plays in a mini world cup, nobody really cares about the prestige of this competition)

+ a few tournament for youngsters

Club Tournaments

1) Champion's League (for European teams only) - Copa Libertadores (South America)
2) Intercontinental Cup (winner of the CL vs winner of the Libertadores)
3) National Championship or UEFA Cup (Europe) or Mercosur Cup (South America) or Asian Champion's League or African Champion's league, big countries (e.g: England, Spain, Italy) consider winning the league title is more important, some others (e.g: France) consider winning a continental competition is mor important.
4) National Cup
5) League Cup (only in a few countries, e.g : England, France)
6) World Championship of Clubs, same as Confederation's Cup but for clubs, nobody really cares about it.

[daedalus]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

The equivalent of our NIT tournament in College basketball?

Good analogy.

Originally Posted by CraigSca

If you win the UEFA cup, is there a stigma attributed to it? Basically a, "Yes, you won the tournament, but it's not made up of the best teams anyway?"

It seems to be more of a "we wish we were in the other tournament" or a "what could've been" than a looking down. Perhaps it's something American can learn from.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by druez

The US is a top 10 squad I believe.

We don't really have the results against other top 20 sides (aside from Mexico) to back that up.

[bamcgee]

I ran across this as Roma in my dynasty - but what is the Super Cup?

maybe pits the UEFA winner vs the CL winner? is that it?

[BreizhManu]

Originally Posted by bamcgee

I ran across this as Roma in my dynasty - but what is the Super Cup?

maybe pits the UEFA winner vs the CL winner? is that it?

that's it, and the same goes in every country you get the super cup (italy, spain) or charity shield (england) or trophée des champions (france) : winner of the championship vs winner of the cup.

[ice4277]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

So...basically the UEFA cup is made up of second tier clubs? The equivalent of our NIT tournament in College basketball? If you win the UEFA cup, is there a stigma attributed to it? Basically a, "Yes, you won the tournament, but it's not made up of the best teams anyway?"

Yeah, thats close, but I think the UEFA Cup is a bit more prestigious than the NIT. Clubs fight pretty damn hard to get involved in it, whereas many b-ball teams could give a crap about NIT.

[3ric]

Yes, the UEFA cup is not a low-prestige tournament at all. This year Valencia won it, and they've taken the Spanish league championship twice in three years. They just had a bad run domestically last year.

[ice4277]

Originally Posted by 3ric

Yes, the UEFA cup is not a low-prestige tournament at all. This year Valencia won it, and they've taken the Spanish league championship twice in three years. They just had a bad run domestically last year.

Actually, didn't they only miss out on the CL by a point or so? And if I am recalling correctly, didn't the team that beat them for it get relegated? Kind of funny how those things work.

[McSweeny]

Originally Posted by fantastic flying froggies

Most frenchmen will actually be behind Monaco tonight. Even though technically, Monaco is not France...

same way that most of Ireland backs Celtic

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by druez

The US is a top 10 squad I believe. When young freddie Adu matures we will climb even higher. We've lacked a pure finisher with great first touch for years. I think this kid has it.

No, no they arent. They're a decent team, but hard to place them in the top 20, let alone the top 10. If Donovan and Adu continue to mature their will be some genuine world class players (other than perhaps Friedel), but lets wait on that one..

[Crapshoot]

btw, regarding the UEFA cup- NIT analogy- I dont think that's fair. For one thing, people who are eliminated in the early rounds of the champions leauge are put back into the UEFA cup- so a team can start the season in the CL and win the UEFA cup, a la Galatasarray a couple of years ago. Its a poor man's CL from my perspective..

[ice4277]

Originally Posted by Aadik

Its a poor man's CL from my perspective..

That's probably a better way to look at it, especially since starting next season, there will be a group stage in the UEFA Cup.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by Aadik

No, no they arent. They're a decent team, but hard to place them in the top 20, let alone the top 10. If Donovan and Adu continue to mature their will be some genuine world class players (other than perhaps Friedel), but lets wait on that one..

There's a team that beat Portugal, tied the 4th place team in the most Recent World Cup, made the quarterfinals and only lost there 1-0 because Ollie Kahn played out of his mind, that says they are top 12 at the very least

[ice4277]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

There's a team that beat Portugal, tied the 4th place team in the most Recent World Cup, made the quarterfinals and only lost there 1-0 because Ollie Kahn played out of his mind, that says they are top 12 at the very least

But then, you can counter that by looking at their piss-poor record in Europe recently. While I think we definitely has a squad that, on its day, could beat all but two or three teams in the world, I don't think it is consistent enough yet to rate a true top 10.

I have no doubt, though, that this will occur one day.

[Francis_Cole]

THe uefa cup is also made up of teams who were in the champions league but got knocked out. SO calling the uefa cup a lesser tournament is wrong IMO.

[Alf]

Porto won won the Champions League this year won the UEFA Cup last year (with basically the same group of players...). Can't say UEFA Cup is comparable to NIT.