OT: Chalk one up for mankind... Kasparov up 1-0

HornedFrog Purple · 01-26-2003, 11:58 PM

KASPAROV FORCED the Israeli-programmed Deep Junior into a position from which it could not win, compelling the human moving its pieces to resign four hours into the game.
Both players’ queens, the most powerful pieces on the board, were captured by the end of the game, leaving them to use less powerful knights, bishops and rooks. That gave the advantage to Kasparov, who used white pieces and moved first.
“Once he was able to remove the queens from the board, it was just arithmetic,” said commentator and international grand master Maurice Ashley.
Early in the game, Deep Junior stunned experts when it paused for 25 minutes to contemplate a countermove to Kasparov’s attack. Kasparov was able to parlay that into dominance for the remainder of the game, Ashley said.
“The entire time there was no doubt of his superiority during the game,” Ashley said.
The game is the first in a six-game series being played through Feb. 7 in New York. The second game is scheduled for Tuesday.

CYBER-REMATCH
The win is a coup for Kasparov, who was beaten in 1997 by Deep Blue, an IBM supercomputer capable of 200 million chess moves per second. Kasparov claimed humans may have given hints to the computer, which was dismantled after the win.
Kasparov, 39, will be paid $500,000 by the World Chess Federation, the game’s international governing body, for playing Deep Junior, which has not lost a match to a human opponent in two years. He can earn an additional $300,000 if he wins the six-game match.

Kasparov rose to chess prominence as a Soviet junior champion in 1976, at age 12. He has held the world’s No. 1 point-system ranking since 1984, despite occasional losses to humans, and has achieved almost mythic status in the chess world.
Deep Junior is a three-time world champion and won the last official world chess championship for computers in July. It is capable of processing only 3 million moves per second, but its programmers say it focuses more on strategy than on capturing the opponent’s chess pieces quickly.
The showdown, sanctioned by the World Chess Federation, is billed as Man vs. Machine. The games can be seen live on the Internet through sponsor X3D Technologies Corp.’s Web site.

bbor · 01-27-2003, 12:07 AM

Pretty amazing...i love chess....i'm just too stoopid to play it

vex · 01-27-2003, 12:16 AM

I've tried to understand it, but chess just doesn't make any sense to me.

HornedFrog Purple · 01-28-2003, 11:01 AM

Well game 2 is today at 3:30 EST. If anyone is interested in watching (ie bored at work) here is a link to see whats going on:

http://www.x3dworld.com/

Bee · 01-28-2003, 11:06 AM

It blows my mind a human can beat a computer in a game like chess where the computer can analyze so many moves ahead. Pretty impressive.

McSweeny · 01-28-2003, 11:32 AM

stuff like this just goes to show why it is so hard for programmers to create A.I. that cannot be taken advantage by a human. And the sim programmers only have your basic home desktop to work with, not some super computer

rkmsuf · 01-28-2003, 11:40 AM

Quote:

stuff like this just goes to show why it is so hard for programmers to create A.I. that cannot be taken advantage by a human. And the sim programmers only have your basic home desktop to work with, not some super computer

Chess is a somewhat unique AI challenge as there are beyond trillions of permutations to deal with. Starting with 20 possible first moves per player the entire tree for chess would comprise around 10 to the 120th power of possibilities. There are only 10 to the 75th power number of atoms in the entire universe.

McSweeny · 01-28-2003, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rkmsuf
Chess is a somewhat unique AI challenge as there are beyond trillions of permutations to deal with. Starting with 20 possible first moves per player the entire tree for chess would comprise around 10 to the 120th power of possibilities. There are only 10 to the 75th power number of atoms in the entire universe.

yikes! that's a ton of possibilities. What i was trying to say was that if a human can beat a super computer at chess, it's going to be pretty hard to create a fair trade AI in a football game that humans can't take advantage of

HornedFrog Purple · 01-28-2003, 11:43 AM

Well from what I have read about Deep Junior, it is programmed to "think" more like a human would which I would guess mean make unexpected moves for an AI and "take chances". So Kasparov will have to be on his toes and expect more of the unexpected from a computer.

Bee · 01-28-2003, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HornedFrog Purple
Well from what I have read about Deep Junior, it is programmed to "think" more like a human would which I would guess mean make unexpected moves for an AI and "take chances". So Kasparov will have to be on his toes and expect more of the unexpected from a computer.

Yep, that's what I've read too. It sounds like Deep Jr considers more strategy than other super computers who just crunch numbers and try to take pieces.

bbor · 01-28-2003, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rkmsuf
Chess is a somewhat unique AI challenge as there are beyond trillions of permutations to deal with. Starting with 20 possible first moves per player the entire tree for chess would comprise around 10 to the 120th power of possibilities. There are only 10 to the 75th power number of atoms in the entire universe.

HUh

rkmsuf · 01-28-2003, 11:52 AM

Quote:

HUh

Is that a question?

HornedFrog Purple · 01-28-2003, 12:00 PM

Well I have Deep Fritz which is a pretty good chess program and you can set it to show every option it is considering and it just scrolls and scrolls

Basically, the premise behind an AI for chess is it has values for each piece and comes up with an evaluation like a point value based on pieces on the board and position... for instance +5.32 tells it is is "winning" and it will go through thousands of moves to decide how to keep that advantage or exploit it even further.

I have never ever come close to beating it when I set it to grandmaster, but its pretty fun with the adjustable options.

Deep Junior uses the same principles but it will use "gameplans" or what are called gambits and sees how they work, in other words it looks more at predicting what its opponent will do than its predecessor.

It will be interesting today because Deep Junior is white which is the more offensive side if both players are equal or near equal.

rkmsuf · 01-28-2003, 12:04 PM

Most chess computers can only contemplate between 10 and 20 moves into the future. The Deep Junior programmers have sacrificed the volume of computations per second in favor of using some horsepower to deliberate "strategy".

bbor · 01-28-2003, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rkmsuf
Is that a question?

Naw...just me admitting how stoopid i am h

KWhit · 01-28-2003, 12:37 PM

I too am amazed that a human can beat a computer at chess. I mean, how is it possible for Kasparov to examine more possible moves than this super-computer? He can't. So something about a human's ability to strategize evens the stakes a bit. Fascinating.

MJ4H · 01-28-2003, 04:10 PM

Computers have whats called the "horizon effect." It has to do with this:

Positions can be evaluated based on "positional" qualities (a well posted knight, a passed pawn, more space contained by your pawns are all positional qualities) but the only way to evaluate the position tactically (forking the king and queen with your knight is a tactic) is to examine all (not technically all, but effectively) possible moves and evaluating the end position (in terms of material and positional qualities). A computer can only see so far positionally and tactically. Qualities that are good positionally 5 moves down the road may have tactical problems down the road. A computer cant see ahead past its threshold and evaluate future positions without lots of time (which merely moves the threshold--its still there, just more moves away). Now this doesnt take into account a human's ability to make "plans" (a key element in chess)--computers can only simulate this by looking as far ahead as possible (all the way to the completion of a plan in fact, which relies on a correct evaluation of the end position, again subject to the horizon effect). Humans still play better chess, but computers are starting to an excellent job of simulating this using brute force and some advanced positional evaluation algorithms.

MJ4H · 01-28-2003, 05:18 PM

DOLA

You might want to tune into the game. Horizon effect is about to be expoited by Kasp in game 2. If what it looks like he is planning works, this will be brilliant. He is about to sacrifice his rook for a bishop, and the comp is underestimating the attack Kasp will get for this. Should be interesting.

MJ4H · 01-28-2003, 05:52 PM

DOUBLE DOLA -

The game just ended in a draw. Kasparov had the attack I was referring to, but wasnt patient enough. Looks like he rushed his attack a little, allowing the computer to give back some material and stave off the attack. The endgame would have been interesting, but the players agreed to a draw before entering it (comp had two rooks and a knight while kasp had a queen and knight - both had 4 pawns). Most interesting drawn chess game Ive seen in awhile. Would be worth looking at if you like this kind of stuff.

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 a6 5. Bd3 Bc5 6. Nb3 Ba7 7. c4 Nc6
8. Nc3 d6 9. O-O Nge7 10. Re1 O-O 11. Be3 e5 12. Nd5 a5 13. Rc1 a4 14. Bxa7
Rxa7 15. Nd2 Nd4 16. Qh5 Ne6 17. Rc3 Nc5 18. Bc2 Nxd5 19. exd5 g6 20. Qh6
f5 21. Ra3 Qf6 22. b4 axb3 23. Rxa7 bxc2 24. Rc1 e4 25. Rxc2 Qa1+ 26. Nf1
f4 27. Ra8 e3 28. fxe3 fxe3 29. Qxf8+ Kxf8 30. Rxc8+ Kf7

DRAW AGREED

HornedFrog Purple · 01-28-2003, 11:57 PM

Well the score is now 1.5 Kasparov-.5 Deep Junior

I was a little surprised Junior took the draw. From looking at the board when it was agreed this is the type of game an AI should excel at. Kasparov offered the draw.

Kasparov went for the kill too early in move 25, but the most fascinating thing was Junior did something very human and sacrificed its queen for position. That is atypical. Junior played much better according to experts this game. Its going to have to steal one as black soon.

01-29-2003, 12:11 AM

cool, i love chess.

We should have a FOF chess tournament, but I bet a lot of insecure people would cheat.

right, horns?

sterlingice · 01-29-2003, 12:17 AM

Pardon my ignorance.

DOLA = ?

SI

Alf · 01-29-2003, 05:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sterlingice
DOLA = ?

you can refer to the FOFC dictionnary

here

or at the old board

MJ4H · 01-29-2003, 08:27 AM

If Im not mistaken, the queen sacrifice was the only move to avoid mate. Any computer (or human) would have done that. In fact, if Kasparov had been more patient, he would not have even allowed this saving move.

This game clearly showed the horizon effect. Computer evaluations of positions many moves ahead are only superficial. The computer saw that a few moves ahead it would have a material advantage, but wihtout looking ahead even further (past its "horizon") it could not see that Kasparov would have a crushing attack. It's a pity Kasparov fouled up that attack, but nevertheless, great game.

Marc Vaughan · 01-29-2003, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HornedFrog Purple
Well I have Deep Fritz which is a pretty good chess program and you can set it to show every option it is considering and it just scrolls and scrolls Basically, the premise behind an AI for chess is it has values for each piece and comes up with an evaluation like a point value based on pieces on the board and position... for instance +5.32 tells it is is "winning" and it will go through thousands of moves to decide how to keep that advantage or exploit it even further.
I have never ever come close to beating it when I set it to grandmaster, but its pretty fun with the adjustable options.

When trying to beat a chess AI try and setup a non-standard board position (ie. one which won't happen through a standard chess gambit opening) and/or attempt to find a sacrificial move which will give you an advantage several moves in the future.

Using this type of approach you will find most home computer chess programs easily beatable if you are a reasonable chess player.

(Reasoning in case you're interested:
* Most chess programs 'supplement' their AI using classic matches from grand masters, if your games position is identical to one of these then it will 'play as a grand-master'.
Forcing the game outside of the 'standard' moves will mean it has to rely on its own programmed AI which is invariably weaker.
* Sacrifices - any computer AI will only look so far into the future during its analysis of the board, if your sacrifice falls 'beyond' that analysis then the CPU will fall for it and the game is yours.)

cuervo72 · 01-29-2003, 09:03 AM

http://gameknot.com is a pretty good chess site and could probably handle some sort of tournament. I'm sure there are other good sites out there, but this is one a co-worker pointed me to.

bbor · 01-29-2003, 11:10 AM

Matt and Horned....How the hell do you guys know so much about chess?

HornedFrog Purple · 01-29-2003, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Marc Vaughan
When trying to beat a chess AI try and setup a non-standard board position (ie. one which won't happen through a standard chess gambit opening) and/or attempt to find a sacrificial move which will give you an advantage several moves in the future.

Using this type of approach you will find most home computer chess programs easily beatable if you are a reasonable chess player.

(Reasoning in case you're interested:
* Most chess programs 'supplement' their AI using classic matches from grand masters, if your games position is identical to one of these then it will 'play as a grand-master'.
Forcing the game outside of the 'standard' moves will mean it has to rely on its own programmed AI which is invariably weaker.
* Sacrifices - any computer AI will only look so far into the future during its analysis of the board, if your sacrifice falls 'beyond' that analysis then the CPU will fall for it and the game is yours.)

Yeah Marc from what I understand, an AI has a "book" which covers a lot of its thinking.

Here is an article that explains some of its flaws right now particularly in the endgame:

http://www.worldchessrating.com/521772350.html

According to experts after the 7th move of the game, Deep Junior was only going with 20 "books" out of 2.3 million in its database. In other words, it was having to rely more on its own "thinking" than usual. Just by looking at the result, it seemed it coped pretty well.

bbor I dont really know a lot, I just picked up chess from my dad when I was a kid and just always stayed interested in it. There is a fellow I work with who is a chess addict and he destroys me just about every game, but he is a sort of tutor. Very bright guy. In fact we were both watching this last game here at work and he shook his head when Kasparov jumped the gun too early and I didnt see it until he explained it to me. My event horizon is weak.

By the way Chessmaster 9000 is really cool in explaining gambits, strategy and stuff for someone who wants to learn. I enjoy it a lot.

bbor · 01-29-2003, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HornedFrog Purple
My event horizon is weak

Event Horizon WAS a good movie though

heybrad · 01-29-2003, 03:30 PM

I've been playing Chess at www.itsyourturn.com for a while now. If any fellow FOFCers want to play a game, PM me your email address and I will send an invite for a game.

I'm not great or anything at chess. Its like most things in that the more you play the better you get. I've been in a number of tournament at the site and have recently won my last 2 brackets. For regular friendly type games, you can take your time playing. It will send emails when its your turn to move.

If anyone is interested, let me know.

MJ4H · 01-29-2003, 04:31 PM

hey brad!

Ive played at www.itsyourturn.com for a couple of years. My name there is "Gorgonian" (as it is on FICS). I made it to the championship round in a tournament there, but got my tail kicked hard.

Look me up if you want heybrad. And I know about chess because its my number one hobby outside of music right now.

And I am almost always on FICS these days (check it out at www.freechess.org) as "Gorgonian" (I use that handle most places).

heybrad · 01-29-2003, 04:52 PM

When I get home tonight I will set up a match. The one thing that sucks about the tournaments is how long they take. I've won both the November and December 1st rounds, but I'm still waiting for the next round to start.

Dont be surprised if you kick the crap out of me.

Airhog · 01-29-2003, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HornedFrog Purple
Yeah Marc from what I understand, an AI has a "book" which covers a lot of its thinking.

Here is an article that explains some of its flaws right now particularly in the endgame:

A book move actually pertains to the opening, at least from my studies of chess.

A more accurate description used, would be a tablebase. Endgames show the one true weakness of chess programs. They do not understand concepts as iniative, and looking at a bigger picture. without a tablebase, It is far to easy to turn a winnable endgame for the computer into a draw for the human.

A tablebase is merely a database that contains every single position possible for a number of pieces. Right now you can get tablebases upto 3 peice endings I believe.

I think kasaparov made the right decision. He is looking at the overall picture too, because 4 more draws would suit him just fine. I think that eventually, computers will be able to beat any humans, simply because they can process more moves. It has been written, that even the greatest analytical chess players, such as alekhine, could probably only calculate 10 moves deep if that even.But this will not happen until programers can creat an AI that knows how to plan, and can look at that bigger picture.

HornedFrog Purple · 01-30-2003, 02:33 PM

FYI Game 3 is about to kickoff in minutes... www.x3dworld.com

Bonegavel · 01-30-2003, 02:43 PM

Looks like the site is down.

HornedFrog Purple · 01-30-2003, 02:47 PM

Yeah its getting hammered, I managed to get in though. Here is another one:

http://www.worldchessrating.com

click "online broadcasting"

HornedFrog Purple · 01-30-2003, 06:52 PM

Well its a whole new ballgame now. Junior beat Kasparov as black, the score is 1.5-1.5

With 3 games left, Junior is white twice. Without really studying the game it looks like Kasparov was going for the win and made a mistake and it cost him, he was also running low on time which may have forced him to hurry to move 40 (which never happened) to get the extra hour.

These final 3 games should be fun.

CHEMICAL SOLDIER · 01-30-2003, 11:08 PM

Good This proves we can defeat the robots once they uprise against us .

Easy Mac · 01-30-2003, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CHEMICAL SOLDIER
Good This proves we can defeat the robots once they uprise against us .

From the Simpsons:

The wars of the future will not be fought on the battlefield or at sea.

They will be fought in space, or possibly on top of a very tall
mountain.

In either case, most of the actual fighting will be done by small robots.

And as you go forth today remember always your duty is clear: To build and maintain those robots. Thank you.

wbonnell · 01-31-2003, 12:11 AM

I wrote a very simple chess engine as a computer science undergraduate project. It essentially used brute force by evaluating ALL possible moves. To be honest, I actually cribbed a minimax heuristic to score and ultimately select a move. I don't remember the details now (I still have to C code somewhere), but I believe that the algorithm broke down (ran endlessly) after 3 moves. However, I enjoyed watching it beat most of my classmates- most casual chess players are unable or unwilling to look more than 1 or 2 moves deep.

I used to be a member of the USCF. In fact, I co-directed the largest tournament in Wyoming history!

Seeing as how it was Wyoming, we only had about 50 contestants.

Btw, what's up with the funky shades those people are wearing at the match? They make those geeks look even geekier!

Senator · 01-31-2003, 10:51 AM

DOWN GOES FRAZIER!

Computer Beats Kasparov in Chess Game
Thu Jan 30, 9:44 PM ET Add Technology - AP to My Yahoo!

By MADISON J. GRAY, Associated Press Writer

NEW YORK - A blunder cost chess legend Garry Kasparov the third in a series of championship games with supercomputer Deep Junior on Thursday.

"I had a complete blackout," Kasparov said. "Despite Deep Junior having a great team and grandmaster trainers, I had great positions."

Kasparov sacrificed a pawn, one his least-powerful pieces, hoping to further strengthen his position. But the sacrifice actually left him vulnerable, and Deep Junior capitalized on the mistake. Seeing few options, Kasparov conceded.

The six-game series is tied at 1 1/2 games each. Kasparov won the first game Sunday; the second on Tuesday was a draw. The next game is Sunday.

Kasparov, 39, said he becomes fatigued during the games, which can last for hours, while the computer doesn't.

"I have to work on that," he said.

The match is sanctioned by the World Chess Federation, which will pay Kasparov $500,000, and another $300,000 if he beats Deep Junior, which has not lost a match against a human in two years.

The games can be followed live on the Web site of X3D Technologies, one of the match's sponsors.

Kasparov lost to IBM supercomputer Deep Blue in 1997. He claimed the computer may have been given hints by humans.

Bee · 01-31-2003, 11:00 AM

Thanks to whoever recommended Chessmaster 9000. I borrowed a copy from a friend to try it out and plan on going out and buying it this weekend. I've never been a big chess player, but always wanted to learn the strategy and this looks like it can teach a lot to me.

Thanks
Bruce

rkmsuf · 01-31-2003, 11:03 AM

I watched a bit of the match yesterday and Kasparov was taking a long time between moves and time was definately a factor later on. I lasted until around move 11 and at that point it looked like Kasparvo had a pretty good atvantage/setup.

Senator · 01-31-2003, 11:04 AM

Bee,

That is what I used to really learn as well. What is great is you can submit your scores and get rated, I like that.

Airhog · 01-31-2003, 11:36 AM

How deep do the lessons in Chessmaster 9000 go? I consider myself a pretty advanced player. I know all about the basics of chess, forking, Sacrificing pieces. I am familiar with the basics of openings, and closed/open positions. I am also pretty good at determing the given imbalances in a given position, although I havent done it enough, and I dont usually play games with a long enough clock to really do well there. Im more interested in A program being able to teach me the finer points of tactics. I have a book on planning, but having a program help teach this would be even better.

HornedFrog Purple · 01-31-2003, 02:43 PM

CM 9000 has some serious advanced tutorials. There are 3 sets of lessons Beginner, Intermediate and Advanced. Each level has a series of Drills too, which are like problems. As you go through them, it checks the lessons off. There is also a section from Josh (I can never spell his last name right) who was the player that inspired the movie "Searching for Bobby Fischer" which deals with the psychology aspects. That part alone is worth the price of the game.

The thing thats really cool is you can play a game then set the advisor to analyze it afterwards and it tells in plain english with notations of your choice what were strong moves and blunders.

It also comes with 100 different personalities to play against. To me its the most complete user-friendly system out there. Fritz has serious engine power, but CM has a very good one itself and is more accessable to teaching. CM will also accept any Winboard engine you want to put in it.

KWhit · 01-31-2003, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HornedFrog Purple
CM will also accept any Winboard engine you want to put in it.

What does this mean? What is a Winboard engine?

HornedFrog Purple · 01-31-2003, 03:01 PM

In a nutshell, Winboard is an interface. People from all over the world design engines to play chess using this interface. The cool thing about it is Winboard and the engines for the most part are free.

http://www.tim-mann.org/chess.html

Here is a link that will help answer questions you might have. Somewhere in there is a step-by-step guide on how to import Winboard chess engines into Fritz, CM and other commercial products.

http://www.geocities.com/lyapko/Engines/lgwbf.htm

cuervo72 · 01-31-2003, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KWhit
What does this mean? What is a Winboard engine?

I think my Saturn is powered by a Winboard engine.

BishopMVP · 01-31-2003, 04:47 PM

Anyone else ever play Gambit? It is a program I used on the 486, still have it installed on it in the basement. It is actually pretty good, and Garry Kasparov's little video advice is hilarious because it is old enough that his words and the video are always off as well as the AI being bad enough that he'll tell you he's not sure of a move where you put an opponent into mate. He'd also bob his head side to side whenever he talked. It was/is great.

01-27-2003, 12:07 AM	#2
bbor Pro Starter Join Date: May 2001 Location: toronto	Pretty amazing...i love chess....i'm just too stoopid to play it __________________ Pumpy Tudors Now that I've cracked and made that admission, I wonder if I'm only a couple of steps away from wanting to tongue-kiss Jaromir Jagr and give Bobby Clarke a blowjob.

01-28-2003, 11:01 AM	#4
HornedFrog Purple Hattrick Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Fort Worthless, Tx	Well game 2 is today at 3:30 EST. If anyone is interested in watching (ie bored at work) here is a link to see whats going on: http://www.x3dworld.com/ __________________ King of All FOFC Media!!! IHOF: Fort Worthless Fury- 2004 AOC Deep South Champions (not acknowledged via conspiracy)

01-28-2003, 11:43 AM	#9
HornedFrog Purple Hattrick Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Fort Worthless, Tx	Well from what I have read about Deep Junior, it is programmed to "think" more like a human would which I would guess mean make unexpected moves for an AI and "take chances". So Kasparov will have to be on his toes and expect more of the unexpected from a computer. __________________ King of All FOFC Media!!! IHOF: Fort Worthless Fury- 2004 AOC Deep South Champions (not acknowledged via conspiracy)

01-28-2003, 12:00 PM	#13
HornedFrog Purple Hattrick Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Fort Worthless, Tx	Well I have Deep Fritz which is a pretty good chess program and you can set it to show every option it is considering and it just scrolls and scrolls Basically, the premise behind an AI for chess is it has values for each piece and comes up with an evaluation like a point value based on pieces on the board and position... for instance +5.32 tells it is is "winning" and it will go through thousands of moves to decide how to keep that advantage or exploit it even further. I have never ever come close to beating it when I set it to grandmaster, but its pretty fun with the adjustable options. Deep Junior uses the same principles but it will use "gameplans" or what are called gambits and sees how they work, in other words it looks more at predicting what its opponent will do than its predecessor. It will be interesting today because Deep Junior is white which is the more offensive side if both players are equal or near equal. __________________ King of All FOFC Media!!! IHOF: Fort Worthless Fury- 2004 AOC Deep South Champions (not acknowledged via conspiracy)

01-28-2003, 12:04 PM	#14
rkmsuf Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2001	Most chess computers can only contemplate between 10 and 20 moves into the future. The Deep Junior programmers have sacrificed the volume of computations per second in favor of using some horsepower to deliberate "strategy". __________________ "Don't you have homes?" -- Judge Smales

01-27-2003, 12:16 AM	#3
vex Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Tulsa	I've tried to understand it, but chess just doesn't make any sense to me.

01-28-2003, 11:06 AM	#5
Bee Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Fairfax, VA	It blows my mind a human can beat a computer in a game like chess where the computer can analyze so many moves ahead. Pretty impressive.

01-28-2003, 11:32 AM	#6
McSweeny College Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Somerville, MA	stuff like this just goes to show why it is so hard for programmers to create A.I. that cannot be taken advantage by a human. And the sim programmers only have your basic home desktop to work with, not some super computer

01-28-2003, 12:37 PM	#16
KWhit Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Conyers GA	I too am amazed that a human can beat a computer at chess. I mean, how is it possible for Kasparov to examine more possible moves than this super-computer? He can't. So something about a human's ability to strategize evens the stakes a bit. Fascinating.

01-28-2003, 04:10 PM	#17
MJ4H Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Hog Country	Computers have whats called the "horizon effect." It has to do with this: Positions can be evaluated based on "positional" qualities (a well posted knight, a passed pawn, more space contained by your pawns are all positional qualities) but the only way to evaluate the position tactically (forking the king and queen with your knight is a tactic) is to examine all (not technically all, but effectively) possible moves and evaluating the end position (in terms of material and positional qualities). A computer can only see so far positionally and tactically. Qualities that are good positionally 5 moves down the road may have tactical problems down the road. A computer cant see ahead past its threshold and evaluate future positions without lots of time (which merely moves the threshold--its still there, just more moves away). Now this doesnt take into account a human's ability to make "plans" (a key element in chess)--computers can only simulate this by looking as far ahead as possible (all the way to the completion of a plan in fact, which relies on a correct evaluation of the end position, again subject to the horizon effect). Humans still play better chess, but computers are starting to an excellent job of simulating this using brute force and some advanced positional evaluation algorithms. __________________ My YouTube channel My Twitch channel My Sharona

01-28-2003, 05:18 PM	#18
MJ4H Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Hog Country	DOLA You might want to tune into the game. Horizon effect is about to be expoited by Kasp in game 2. If what it looks like he is planning works, this will be brilliant. He is about to sacrifice his rook for a bishop, and the comp is underestimating the attack Kasp will get for this. Should be interesting. __________________ My YouTube channel My Twitch channel My Sharona

01-28-2003, 05:52 PM	#19
MJ4H Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Hog Country	DOUBLE DOLA - The game just ended in a draw. Kasparov had the attack I was referring to, but wasnt patient enough. Looks like he rushed his attack a little, allowing the computer to give back some material and stave off the attack. The endgame would have been interesting, but the players agreed to a draw before entering it (comp had two rooks and a knight while kasp had a queen and knight - both had 4 pawns). Most interesting drawn chess game Ive seen in awhile. Would be worth looking at if you like this kind of stuff. 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 a6 5. Bd3 Bc5 6. Nb3 Ba7 7. c4 Nc6 8. Nc3 d6 9. O-O Nge7 10. Re1 O-O 11. Be3 e5 12. Nd5 a5 13. Rc1 a4 14. Bxa7 Rxa7 15. Nd2 Nd4 16. Qh5 Ne6 17. Rc3 Nc5 18. Bc2 Nxd5 19. exd5 g6 20. Qh6 f5 21. Ra3 Qf6 22. b4 axb3 23. Rxa7 bxc2 24. Rc1 e4 25. Rxc2 Qa1+ 26. Nf1 f4 27. Ra8 e3 28. fxe3 fxe3 29. Qxf8+ Kxf8 30. Rxc8+ Kf7 DRAW AGREED __________________ My YouTube channel My Twitch channel My Sharona

01-28-2003, 11:57 PM	#20
HornedFrog Purple Hattrick Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Fort Worthless, Tx	Well the score is now 1.5 Kasparov-.5 Deep Junior I was a little surprised Junior took the draw. From looking at the board when it was agreed this is the type of game an AI should excel at. Kasparov offered the draw. Kasparov went for the kill too early in move 25, but the most fascinating thing was Junior did something very human and sacrificed its queen for position. That is atypical. Junior played much better according to experts this game. Its going to have to steal one as black soon. __________________ King of All FOFC Media!!! IHOF: Fort Worthless Fury- 2004 AOC Deep South Champions (not acknowledged via conspiracy)

01-29-2003, 12:11 AM	#21
gespacho	chess cool, i love chess. We should have a FOF chess tournament, but I bet a lot of insecure people would cheat. right, horns?

01-29-2003, 12:17 AM	#22
sterlingice Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Back in Houston!	Pardon my ignorance. DOLA = ? SI __________________ Houston Hippopotami, III.3: 20th Anniversary Thread - All former HT players are encouraged to check it out! Janos: "Only America could produce an imbecile of your caliber!" Freakazoid: "That's because we make lots of things better than other people!"

01-29-2003, 08:27 AM	#24
MJ4H Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Hog Country	If Im not mistaken, the queen sacrifice was the only move to avoid mate. Any computer (or human) would have done that. In fact, if Kasparov had been more patient, he would not have even allowed this saving move. This game clearly showed the horizon effect. Computer evaluations of positions many moves ahead are only superficial. The computer saw that a few moves ahead it would have a material advantage, but wihtout looking ahead even further (past its "horizon") it could not see that Kasparov would have a crushing attack. It's a pity Kasparov fouled up that attack, but nevertheless, great game. __________________ My YouTube channel My Twitch channel My Sharona

01-29-2003, 09:03 AM	#26
cuervo72 Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Maryland	http://gameknot.com is a pretty good chess site and could probably handle some sort of tournament. I'm sure there are other good sites out there, but this is one a co-worker pointed me to. __________________ null Last edited by cuervo72 : 01-29-2003 at 09:05 AM.

01-29-2003, 11:10 AM	#27
bbor Pro Starter Join Date: May 2001 Location: toronto	Matt and Horned....How the hell do you guys know so much about chess? __________________ Pumpy Tudors Now that I've cracked and made that admission, I wonder if I'm only a couple of steps away from wanting to tongue-kiss Jaromir Jagr and give Bobby Clarke a blowjob.

01-29-2003, 03:30 PM	#30
heybrad Norm!!! Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Manassas, VA	I've been playing Chess at www.itsyourturn.com for a while now. If any fellow FOFCers want to play a game, PM me your email address and I will send an invite for a game. I'm not great or anything at chess. Its like most things in that the more you play the better you get. I've been in a number of tournament at the site and have recently won my last 2 brackets. For regular friendly type games, you can take your time playing. It will send emails when its your turn to move. If anyone is interested, let me know.

01-29-2003, 04:31 PM	#31
MJ4H Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Hog Country	hey brad! Ive played at www.itsyourturn.com for a couple of years. My name there is "Gorgonian" (as it is on FICS). I made it to the championship round in a tournament there, but got my tail kicked hard. Look me up if you want heybrad. And I know about chess because its my number one hobby outside of music right now. And I am almost always on FICS these days (check it out at www.freechess.org) as "Gorgonian" (I use that handle most places). __________________ My YouTube channel My Twitch channel My Sharona

01-29-2003, 04:52 PM	#32
heybrad Norm!!! Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Manassas, VA	When I get home tonight I will set up a match. The one thing that sucks about the tournaments is how long they take. I've won both the November and December 1st rounds, but I'm still waiting for the next round to start. Dont be surprised if you kick the crap out of me.

01-30-2003, 02:33 PM	#34
HornedFrog Purple Hattrick Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Fort Worthless, Tx	FYI Game 3 is about to kickoff in minutes... www.x3dworld.com __________________ King of All FOFC Media!!! IHOF: Fort Worthless Fury- 2004 AOC Deep South Champions (not acknowledged via conspiracy)

01-30-2003, 02:43 PM	#35
Bonegavel Awaiting Further Instructions... Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Macungie, PA	Looks like the site is down. __________________

01-30-2003, 02:47 PM	#36
HornedFrog Purple Hattrick Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Fort Worthless, Tx	Yeah its getting hammered, I managed to get in though. Here is another one: http://www.worldchessrating.com click "online broadcasting" __________________ King of All FOFC Media!!! IHOF: Fort Worthless Fury- 2004 AOC Deep South Champions (not acknowledged via conspiracy)

01-30-2003, 06:52 PM	#37
HornedFrog Purple Hattrick Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Fort Worthless, Tx	Well its a whole new ballgame now. Junior beat Kasparov as black, the score is 1.5-1.5 With 3 games left, Junior is white twice. Without really studying the game it looks like Kasparov was going for the win and made a mistake and it cost him, he was also running low on time which may have forced him to hurry to move 40 (which never happened) to get the extra hour. These final 3 games should be fun. __________________ King of All FOFC Media!!! IHOF: Fort Worthless Fury- 2004 AOC Deep South Champions (not acknowledged via conspiracy)

01-30-2003, 11:08 PM	#38
CHEMICAL SOLDIER College Starter Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Henderson, Nevada	Good This proves we can defeat the robots once they uprise against us . __________________ Toujour Pret

01-31-2003, 12:11 AM	#40
wbonnell College Prospect Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Round Rock TX	I wrote a very simple chess engine as a computer science undergraduate project. It essentially used brute force by evaluating ALL possible moves. To be honest, I actually cribbed a minimax heuristic to score and ultimately select a move. I don't remember the details now (I still have to C code somewhere), but I believe that the algorithm broke down (ran endlessly) after 3 moves. However, I enjoyed watching it beat most of my classmates- most casual chess players are unable or unwilling to look more than 1 or 2 moves deep. I used to be a member of the USCF. In fact, I co-directed the largest tournament in Wyoming history! Seeing as how it was Wyoming, we only had about 50 contestants. Btw, what's up with the funky shades those people are wearing at the match? They make those geeks look even geekier!

01-31-2003, 10:51 AM	#41
Senator FOFC's Elected Representative Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The stars at night; are big and bright	DOWN GOES FRAZIER! Computer Beats Kasparov in Chess Game Thu Jan 30, 9:44 PM ET Add Technology - AP to My Yahoo! By MADISON J. GRAY, Associated Press Writer NEW YORK - A blunder cost chess legend Garry Kasparov the third in a series of championship games with supercomputer Deep Junior on Thursday. "I had a complete blackout," Kasparov said. "Despite Deep Junior having a great team and grandmaster trainers, I had great positions." Kasparov sacrificed a pawn, one his least-powerful pieces, hoping to further strengthen his position. But the sacrifice actually left him vulnerable, and Deep Junior capitalized on the mistake. Seeing few options, Kasparov conceded. The six-game series is tied at 1 1/2 games each. Kasparov won the first game Sunday; the second on Tuesday was a draw. The next game is Sunday. Kasparov, 39, said he becomes fatigued during the games, which can last for hours, while the computer doesn't. "I have to work on that," he said. The match is sanctioned by the World Chess Federation, which will pay Kasparov $500,000, and another $300,000 if he beats Deep Junior, which has not lost a match against a human in two years. The games can be followed live on the Web site of X3D Technologies, one of the match's sponsors. Kasparov lost to IBM supercomputer Deep Blue in 1997. He claimed the computer may have been given hints by humans. __________________ "i have seen chris simms play 4-5 times in the pros and he's very clearly got it. he won't make a pro bowl this year, but it'll come. if you don't like me saying that, so be it, but its true. we'll just have to wait until then" imettrentgreen "looking at only ten games, and oddly using a median only, leaves me unmoved generally" - Quiksand

01-31-2003, 11:00 AM	#42
Bee Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Fairfax, VA	Thanks to whoever recommended Chessmaster 9000. I borrowed a copy from a friend to try it out and plan on going out and buying it this weekend. I've never been a big chess player, but always wanted to learn the strategy and this looks like it can teach a lot to me. Thanks Bruce

01-31-2003, 11:03 AM	#43
rkmsuf Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2001	I watched a bit of the match yesterday and Kasparov was taking a long time between moves and time was definately a factor later on. I lasted until around move 11 and at that point it looked like Kasparvo had a pretty good atvantage/setup. __________________ "Don't you have homes?" -- Judge Smales

01-31-2003, 11:04 AM	#44
Senator FOFC's Elected Representative Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The stars at night; are big and bright	Bee, That is what I used to really learn as well. What is great is you can submit your scores and get rated, I like that. __________________ "i have seen chris simms play 4-5 times in the pros and he's very clearly got it. he won't make a pro bowl this year, but it'll come. if you don't like me saying that, so be it, but its true. we'll just have to wait until then" imettrentgreen "looking at only ten games, and oddly using a median only, leaves me unmoved generally" - Quiksand

01-31-2003, 11:36 AM	#45
Airhog Captain Obvious Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Norman, Oklahoma	How deep do the lessons in Chessmaster 9000 go? I consider myself a pretty advanced player. I know all about the basics of chess, forking, Sacrificing pieces. I am familiar with the basics of openings, and closed/open positions. I am also pretty good at determing the given imbalances in a given position, although I havent done it enough, and I dont usually play games with a long enough clock to really do well there. Im more interested in A program being able to teach me the finer points of tactics. I have a book on planning, but having a program help teach this would be even better. __________________ Thread Killer extraordinaire Yay! its football season once again!

01-31-2003, 02:43 PM	#46
HornedFrog Purple Hattrick Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Fort Worthless, Tx	CM 9000 has some serious advanced tutorials. There are 3 sets of lessons Beginner, Intermediate and Advanced. Each level has a series of Drills too, which are like problems. As you go through them, it checks the lessons off. There is also a section from Josh (I can never spell his last name right) who was the player that inspired the movie "Searching for Bobby Fischer" which deals with the psychology aspects. That part alone is worth the price of the game. The thing thats really cool is you can play a game then set the advisor to analyze it afterwards and it tells in plain english with notations of your choice what were strong moves and blunders. It also comes with 100 different personalities to play against. To me its the most complete user-friendly system out there. Fritz has serious engine power, but CM has a very good one itself and is more accessable to teaching. CM will also accept any Winboard engine you want to put in it. __________________ King of All FOFC Media!!! IHOF: Fort Worthless Fury- 2004 AOC Deep South Champions (not acknowledged via conspiracy)

01-31-2003, 03:01 PM	#48
HornedFrog Purple Hattrick Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Fort Worthless, Tx	In a nutshell, Winboard is an interface. People from all over the world design engines to play chess using this interface. The cool thing about it is Winboard and the engines for the most part are free. http://www.tim-mann.org/chess.html Here is a link that will help answer questions you might have. Somewhere in there is a step-by-step guide on how to import Winboard chess engines into Fritz, CM and other commercial products. http://www.geocities.com/lyapko/Engines/lgwbf.htm __________________ King of All FOFC Media!!! IHOF: Fort Worthless Fury- 2004 AOC Deep South Champions (not acknowledged via conspiracy)

01-31-2003, 04:47 PM	#50
BishopMVP Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Concord, MA/UMass	Anyone else ever play Gambit? It is a program I used on the 486, still have it installed on it in the basement. It is actually pretty good, and Garry Kasparov's little video advice is hilarious because it is old enough that his words and the video are always off as well as the AI being bad enough that he'll tell you he's not sure of a move where you put an opponent into mate. He'd also bob his head side to side whenever he talked. It was/is great.