POTUS 2024 - Biden vs Trump - General Election Discussion

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Jas_lov

There's clips on Twitter of Joe's rally in NC today. He's much more passionate and clear. Why didn't that guy show up last night? Is it just the Teleprompter? It's just too late to change candidates now so have to hope that Joe has it in him to show up for the 2nd debate.

Just let Joe go on the attack and he'll be fine. If he's this guy over and ver between now and November nobody will remember the debate. He's not Obama or Gore or Clinton in terms of talking about policy. He's good as n honest guy that gets pissed about injustice. Just let him go and keep talking about how Trump is a one-man crime wave.

[CrimsonFox]

As predicted...

No one tears down Democrats like Democrats...

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Interesting. Did you move principally for political reasons, or it just happened to coincide with an opportunity or a "fuck it, let's try something different" type of decision?

Job opportunity for my wife plus the desire to do something different post COVID and illness.

Honestly I love about 60%-70% of being in Europe but the language and cultural barrier just is what it is. Bear in mind I didn’t live in the US until I was in my mid 20s, for my wife who outside of a couple of years in the UK lived in SoCal her entire life and hasn’t been able to really make inroads into the language at all it’s been even worse.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

I actually talked about this recently in one of these threads. Both parties allow their respective National Committees to select new candidates with little variations. Democrats require the party chair to consult Democratic governors and congressional leadership first. The RNC can either select themselves or try to form an emergency nominating convention.

Of course there are legal questions. I do wonder if this would free up electors once the electoral college met, but by the party bylaws this what supposed to happen.

Cool.

And simply ftr, definitely don't take it personally that I miss anything anybody posts in this thread. I try to limit my exposure to it for my mental health. So I do only short bursts on occasion.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

If I had a chance to move to England or Canada, I would jump in a heart beat. Australia or New Zealand as well. A non-English speaking country would give me pause, but I would probably do something like the Netherlands or Sweden.

My wifes sister and her family live in England. They have been there about 10-12 years and are never coming back because of the mess this country is.

We had an opportunity about 4 years ago to move there with my wifes company and actually live in the same town as her sister but we had just moved back to Jersey so we declined.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I don't support Trump and will not be voting for him. I would prefer he lose which is why I am upset people like you insisted on Joe Biden.

There you go again knowing what I think. Is it ok if I just appoint you as my conservator? You do know me better than me.
This woe is me bullshit has got to stop. I can't believe that trump went on national TV with lies, lies and more lies. He wouldn't even say he would accept the results of the election without a caveat. He lied so much I don't even need to review what he said. It's all just lies. Why would you vote for someone that can't tell the truth at all? Anyone remember Nixon? Americans are a sick, sad and pathetic bunch....just like trump. Perfect union.

[thesloppy]

You seem stuck on the idea that anybody criticizing Biden is voting for Trump. Literally nobody in this thread has a vote that is up for grabs. Everybody is speaking in terms of persuadable votes/voters.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

You seem stuck on the idea that anybody criticizing Biden is voting for Trump. Literally nobody in this thread has a vote that is up for grabs. Everybody is speaking in terms of persuadable votes/voters.

If you're talking to me, you are wrong. That's the thing about assumptions.... Discussing politics in a generalized matter with how it pertains to the nearest election.

[thesloppy]

Mia culpa. Sorry for making you put your generalized discussion into multiple replies to a single individual whom you addressed singularly.

[Edward64]

Good response to last night, Joe.

Biden acknowledges weak debate performance asÂ*Democratic questionsÂ*swirl over whether he’ll stay in the presidential race | CNN Politics

Biden acknowledged the weak performance while giving a much more animated speech in North Carolina on Friday, saying, “I know I’m not a young man. I don’t walk as easily as I used to. I don’t talk as smoothly as I used to. I don’t debate as well as I used to, but i know what I do know: I know how to tell the truth. I know right from wrong. And I know how to do this job, I know how to get things done. And I know what millions of Americans know: When you get knocked down, you get back up.”

[CrimsonFox]

I love that people that never post on this site are coming out of the woodwork to reply to this thread

[Danny]

I despise Trump and what he has and will do with another four years. But like many of you, its not likely to have a large direct effect on me and my family and we are comfortable. We're middle class with our owm home with a great interest rate and reasonable mortgage. We both have good careers (though im a stay at home dad for at least another year until my oldest is in Kindergarten). We live in location we really like with nice weather and people mostly in the range of us politically (and those not are not as overt about it since they are still heavily in the minority here. My kids are part asian but are not those that would be targeted by increased hate and racism.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Danny

I despise Trump and what he has and will do with another four years. But like many of you, its not likely to have a large direct effect on me and my family and we are comfortable. We're middle class with our owm home with a great interest rate and reasonable mortgage. We both have good careers (though im a stay at home dad for at least another year until my oldest is in Kindergarten). We live in location we really like with nice weather and people mostly in the range of us politically (and those not are not as overt about it since they are still heavily in the minority here. My kids are part asian but are not those that would be targeted by increased hate and racism.

Trump sucks but we did live through 4 years of him already. Most of our lives haven't changed much under Biden.

The Dems seem to be polling incredibly well in Senate races which will be important toward blocking judges. No doubt the Republicans will kill the filibuster if they control the Senate. And I think the Dems will take the House since they should have if New York didn't royally fuck up last time. The hope has to be that Biden doesn't drag down others in those races since he is polling so far behind other Democrats.

If you're looking for a silver lining, Trump likely gets us out of the Ukraine boondoggle. There is a semi anti-war faction on the right. And liberals can go back to pretending they are anti-war/anti-genocide which provides some resistance.

Despite all the sky is falling rhetoric, we're still an oligarchy and very little will change policy wise whether Biden or Trump is in power. Courts are going to be running roughshod over the country for decades and Democrats weren't exactly itching to stop it. So I think it's just 4 more years on a sinking ship.

[HerRealName]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Trump sucks but we did live through 4 years of him already. Most of our lives haven't changed much under Biden.

For those of us in red states, we aren't so lucky. My daughter is looking to move out after a friend of hers had a horrible pregnancy issue. We can't follow until we retire. It sucks.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by HerRealName

For those of us in red states, we aren't so lucky. My daughter is looking to move out after a friend of hers had a horrible pregnancy issue. We can't follow until we retire. It sucks.

That happened while Biden was President. He had no way of stopping it and doesn't seem to really care to help those in red states anyway on the issue. Unless 3 conservative judges step down AND Biden was able to get new justices confirmed, it won't change in the next 4 years.

The courts were a 40+ year plan by the right and it'll take a similar strategy by the left to restore any of those rights. Especially with how un-democratic the Senate is and how little most Democratic politicians care.

[HerRealName]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

That happened while Biden was President. He had no way of stopping it and doesn't seem to really care to help those in red states anyway on the issue. Unless 3 conservative judges step down AND Biden was able to get new justices confirmed, it won't change in the next 4 years.

The courts were a 40+ year plan by the right and it'll take a similar strategy by the left to restore any of those rights. Especially with how un-democratic the Senate is and how little most Democratic politicians care.

I would hope they've learned a lesson but, yeah, the Democratic party continues to live in West Wing world instead of trying to do anything of substance. I'm just giving an example where Trump beating Clintion had a negative impact on our lives. Trump winning again just extends that 40 year estimate as Alito and Thomas would definitely retire given the opportunity.

[thesloppy]

If your Biden or his team, how do you even get the toothpaste back in the tube at this point, once you've got multiple pundits/papers that are ostensibly on his side, telling him to step down? Just sweep it under the rug and hope he doesn't make even the slightest misstep again, for 5 entire months?

[JPhillips]

The NYTimes is a fucking embarrassment. They are calling on Biden to drop out, but haven't said a word about Trump dropping out.

[Edward64]

538 with post-debate polling.

Who Won The First Biden-Trump Presidential Debate? | FiveThirtyEight

1. Who performed best? Trump 60.1%, Biden 20.8%
2. Who gained/lost support? Surprisingly, Biden lost only 1.5%. RFK got 1.1% of that. Trump got .4%.
3. On favorability. Joe lost .4%, Trump gained .5%

The impact to Joe is not as bad as I feared. TBH not sure I believe it.

[Brian Swartz]

Goes back to the debate about debates that we've had. They don't matter as much as they used to. The biggest danger from this, as others have mentioned, is not IMO the debate itself but the coverage of it and the narrative that can result.

Originally Posted by JPhillips

The NYTimes is a fucking embarrassment. They are calling on Biden to drop out, but haven't said a word about Trump dropping out.

Why would they be talking about the person who appears to have won (yes, by default, but still) the debate dropping out?

To thesloppy's point, I think Biden's team just tries to minimize the damage and hope that people decide any price is reasonable for keeping Trump away from the Presidency again. There's still quite a decent chance of that happening.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

he biggest danger from this, as others have mentioned, is not IMO the debate itself but the coverage of it and the narrative that can result.

Well, yeah. TBF when I said debates were important, I didn't just mean the 1-2 hours on TV. I also meant the ramifications of the debates (e.g. the Stockdale moment).

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

There's still quite a decent chance of that happening.

Let's hope so.

I'm okay with a declining Joe because I do believe he has better cabinet, supporting cast than Trump.

[Edward64]

FWIW the Chinese POV.

Unfortunately, don't think we can dispute it.

https://www.newsweek.com/biden-trum-...debate-1918688

Chinese commentators mocked the first presidential debate between President Joe Biden and Donald Trump, pointing out the president's repeated verbal stumbles and the questions over the truthfulness of his rival.

Biden was widely seen as the loser of the debate. With his voice sounding hoarse and sometimes appearing to go off track in his remarks, his performance was criticized by both Republicans and Democrats in America at a time that he had been fighting questions over his age.

"Personal attacks, hazy memory, mocking each other... this debate was very entertaining for many Chinese people," wrote high profile media commentator and former state media editor Hu Xijin on X, where he has more than 560,000 followers despite it being banned for most people in China.

"Objectively speaking, the low-quality performance of these two old men was a negative advertisement for Western democracy," he said, posting clips of the video with a jokey musical soundtrack.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

The NYTimes is a fucking embarrassment. They are calling on Biden to drop out, but haven't said a word about Trump dropping out.

Not their job to be his surrogate.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by HerRealName

I would hope they've learned a lesson but, yeah, the Democratic party continues to live in West Wing world instead of trying to do anything of substance. I'm just giving an example where Trump beating Clintion had a negative impact on our lives. Trump winning again just extends that 40 year estimate as Alito and Thomas would definitely retire given the opportunity.

Another big miss was RBG not stepping down when Obama could replace her. Liberals screamed about sexism and it ended up being a huge blunder. Then they ionized the selfish woman after her death.

I don't think they overturn Roe with a 5-4 vote since Roberts seems to avoid that stuff. But with an extra justice on the right, it was happening anyway and gave him the green light.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Not their job to be his surrogate.

The coup trying, sexual assault liable, felon has never been told to drop out by the NYT.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

The coup trying, sexual assault liable, felon has never been told to drop out by the NYT.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/31/o...mp-resign.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/07/o...peachment.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/25/o...can-party.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/08/o...peachment.html

[RainMaker]

Also, if anything, asking him to step down is an anti-Trump move. Biden is like the only person who can lose to Trump and having him steps down likely prevents a Trump Presidency.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Another big miss was RBG not stepping down when Obama could replace her. Liberals screamed about sexism and it ended up being a huge blunder. Then they ionized the selfish woman after her death.

I don't think they overturn Roe with a 5-4 vote since Roberts seems to avoid that stuff. But with an extra justice on the right, it was happening anyway and gave him the green light.

1000% agree on RBG, though I put that completely on her and not "liberals" in general. I'm just to the west of you in Oak Park, and there's still a lot of lawn signs for her here. I get mad every time I see them.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Edward64

538 with post-debate polling.

Who Won The First Biden-Trump Presidential Debate? | FiveThirtyEight


The impact to Joe is not as bad as I feared. TBH not sure I believe it.

I mean all the republicans since Bush sr had bad debates and it didn't matter. why should dems be any different....i mean aside from the fact that they hate themselves.

[CrimsonFox]

I'm not convinced Harris can win since...like....men hate women in power

[Danny]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Trump sucks but we did live through 4 years of him already. Most of our lives haven't changed much under Biden.

The Dems seem to be polling incredibly well in Senate races which will be important toward blocking judges. No doubt the Republicans will kill the filibuster if they control the Senate. And I think the Dems will take the House since they should have if New York didn't royally fuck up last time. The hope has to be that Biden doesn't drag down others in those races since he is polling so far behind other Democrats.

If you're looking for a silver lining, Trump likely gets us out of the Ukraine boondoggle. There is a semi anti-war faction on the right. And liberals can go back to pretending they are anti-war/anti-genocide which provides some resistance.

Despite all the sky is falling rhetoric, we're still an oligarchy and very little will change policy wise whether Biden or Trump is in power. Courts are going to be running roughshod over the country for decades and Democrats weren't exactly itching to stop it. So I think it's just 4 more years on a sinking ship.

It just hurts my heart and makes me sad and angry all the hate he spreads and enboldens others to express. Its hard for me to believe half the country is still living in 1924. Where we live my kids are not affected much by it currently but i want them to live in world better than what is currently happening.

[Ghost Econ]

Evidently Trump let loose a wet far during the debate

Trump Audibly Shits his pants during Debate: #DebateNight #Debate2024
������������������
Listen right after he says "He can't because it's too much money"

TRUMP'S MIC IS THE ONLY LIVE MIC pic.twitter.com/Eo2uDcje7s

— Hal Sparks (@HalSparks) June 28, 2024

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/31/o...mp-resign.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/07/o...peachment.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/25/o...can-party.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/08/o...peachment.html

That's a guest essay and three opinions regarding when he was the President. There's been nothing comparable to the piece written yesterday since Trump won the nomination for 2024.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

That's a guest essay and three opinions regarding when he was the President. There's been nothing comparable to the piece written yesterday since Trump won the nomination for 2024.

Who is it you think they are bias toward? Biden stepping down hurts Trump. They literally wrote an opinion piece pleading with the Democrats to win this so we don't get Trump for 4 more years.

[MJ4H]

Historically, debates don't change votes.

[MJ4H]

Originally Posted by Danny

I despise Trump and what he has and will do with another four years. But like many of you, its not likely to have a large direct effect on me and my family and we are comfortable. We're middle class with our owm home with a great interest rate and reasonable mortgage. We both have good careers (though im a stay at home dad for at least another year until my oldest is in Kindergarten). We live in location we really like with nice weather and people mostly in the range of us politically (and those not are not as overt about it since they are still heavily in the minority here. My kids are part asian but are not those that would be targeted by increased hate and racism.

Trump will do a lot of damage, but so will the supreme court. This Chevron case being overturned is a disaster. This is becoming a regular occurence.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by MJ4H

Historically, debates don't change votes.

If you base things on historical factors, then Trump never wins the nomination or the election in 2016. I don't think hanging hope "historically" is wise at this point.

[PilotMan]

Biden is a terrible candidate. He should have bowed out for the good of the country. Him leaving changes the entire tone and tenor of the current arguments. Him staying just proves he's like every other politician out for themselves and their legacy. Smerconish has really nailed it all along.



He goes, policies, trump and people come back into focus rather than it just being about two old, white guys.



Biden needs to go. It's lost if he stays. And if he loses there's no hope for the future of the US I thought I lived in. Instead we'll be living in the New United Southern States of America and the rest of you will never have your vote count again because we'll legally figure out a way to make sure that happens.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Biden is a terrible candidate. He should have bowed out for the good of the country. Him leaving changes the entire tone and tenor of the current arguments. Him staying just proves he's like every other politician out for themselves and their legacy. Smerconish has really nailed it all along.


s.

I listen to him daily, have even called in a few times. Lions +7.

He can get a bit tiresome with his self promotion but overall I enjoy 90% of the show.

[MJ4H]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

If you base things on historical factors, then Trump never wins the nomination or the election in 2016. I don't think hanging hope "historically" is wise at this point.

Not hanging hope, just pointing it out. So far, polls indicate very little change.

[CrimsonFox]

[Brian Swartz]

There's a lot of just assuming that if Biden drops out the replacement would do better that I don't think is justified. It's possible that would happen, but IMO it's more likely that the chaos which would result favors Trump. It's certainly something we have no frame of reference for, since it hasn't ever happened in presidential politics in America.

I still say this goes back to 2020. Choosing Biden then largely was choosing Biden now. They are one and the same decision.

Originally Posted by PilotMan

He should have bowed out for the good of the country. Him leaving changes the entire tone and tenor of the current arguments. Him staying just proves he's like every other politician out for themselves and their legacy.

I don't think this is necessarily the case. I think it's quite possible - only he knows for sure of course - that Biden chose to run again for the reason that he said; to stop Trump, and that he still thinks he's the best option for that. There are multiple reasons here:

- As noted above, there might not actually be a better alternative
- The very fact that people are increasingly concerned about Biden's mental state points to the idea that he could just be wrong about this. We can't say on the one hand 'Biden can no longer handle the job mentally' and also say 'He obviously knows he's not the best choice and should step down'. Either he is being affected by mental decline, or he isn't.

[JPhillips]

If Biden dropped out there's only one person who could get the nomination over Harris and be in a position to win in November, but Michelle Obama isn't interested. It's fantasy to think someone else is going to drop in and save everything.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by MJ4H

Historically, debates don't change votes.

The debate part isn't the issue, it's how he looked. If he had done this in front of 40 million during the SOTU or some interview, you'd have the same reaction.

[MJ4H]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The debate part isn't the issue, it's how he looked. If he had done this in front of 40 million during the SOTU or some interview, you'd have the same reaction.

I mean, he had a cold. He felt and looked better literally the next day.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

If Biden dropped out there's only one person who could get the nomination over Harris and be in a position to win in November, but Michelle Obama isn't interested. It's fantasy to think someone else is going to drop in and save everything.

I think Pritzker, Whitmer, and Shapiro would beat Trump. All 3 would have just dogwalked him at that debate the other night. They all are well spoken and can get their name and message out fairly easy. People seem terrified of Trump because of 2016, but he's a terrible candidate who is easily beatable. Swing states rejected him in 2020 and his candidate almost all got crushed as well in 2022.

And even if they didn't win, it's still better than running Biden. Biden is hurting the Democratic party so badly among important demographics that it will take a generation to recover. He's a cancer to the party like Trump and should be removed.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I think Pritzker, Whitmer, and Shapiro would beat Trump. All 3 would have just dogwalked him at that debate the other night. They all are well spoken and can get their name and message out fairly easy. People seem terrified of Trump because of 2016, but he's a terrible candidate who is easily beatable. Swing states rejected him in 2020 and his candidate almost all got crushed as well in 2022.

And even if they didn't win, it's still better than running Biden. Biden is hurting the Democratic party so badly among important demographics that it will take a generation to recover. He's a cancer to the party like Trump and should be removed.

The problem is this late in the game none of them have the name brand to get to independents and people that don't really follow politics that you need to turn out. RFK Jr. has been in this from the beginning and still has 20% of people that don't know enough of him to have an opinion.

Pritzker is a bad candidate on the national stage, Whitmer needs a full cycle to build her name, and Shaprio is less known than the other 2. Newsome has his issues, but would likely be the best candidate without the last name Obama to put forward this late.

[thesloppy]

I read a blurb that said Harris is the only one who could access the campaign's funds, since she is already part of it.

[larrymcg421]

x.com

This poll shows not much difference depending on the candidate.

Also, the two demographics there has been concern about Biden losing are minorities and pro-Palestinian youth voters. I fail to see how passing over Harris for three white Zionists (probably moreso than Biden) accomplishes anything in that area.

[nickelback]

This thread makes me weep for America.