After-market for FF miles and Rewards Points

[QuikSand]

I am intrigued by this marketplace, but know fairly little about it.

My introduction - I have some AmEx points that I wanted to convert to cash if possible. Using gift cards is a way to get "full value" for them (100 points = $1.00) and I was looking to get close to this if possible. One way is to sell the gift cards, which looks like it can fetch you 85% value, or thereabouts (last I checked).

I then stumbled onto a few websites that offer to buy your points/miles. Sounded interesting. So, I inquired... hoping they might be able to beat the 85% rate. I contacted this outfit:

Flip My Miles | Get Cash for Point or Miles

...and after a little interaction, they made an offer. They would pay me substantially more than 100% value... I don't recall the details, but it was maybe 120%. My spider sense was activated, and when they said they would need "access to the account" of some sort to make the transfers, I backed out.

However, I remain interested in this, on both sides.

-are companies purporting to guy/flip your miles/points doing something terrible or illegal or scam-like?

-what are good options for people who have enough miles/points to care about, but don't like their direct and obvious options?

[QuikSand]

And yes, there is chatter about this on the internet already, of course:
Mileage brokers - Are they legit? - FlyerTalk Forums

One flippant exchange there:

Are they legit?

No.

/thread

[QuikSand]

More chatter at a site I actually like, SlickDeals:

Anyone used Rewards2Cash.com? 05-22-2012 - Slickdeals.net

[Logan]

I was always under the impression that you couldn't transfer points/miles to people other than family members.

[cartman]

You'd have to check the fine print of the points program, but most of them spell out that it is against the T&Cs to sell your points. It is probably one of those things that is ok unless they decide to do a random audit on one of your transfers.

[stevew]

Quiksand probably busted out some shady gambling sporting goods store owner and now has a bunch of plane tickets to get rid of.

[cartman]

From the FAQ, they walk a fine line.

Q: Is this legal?

While airlines prefer that customers use the miles they earn, there is no law restricting the sale

They are correct in stating there is no law restricting the sale. But on the flip side there are T&Cs for the programs that do not allow it. There are no legal protections either if the program freezes or cancels your account for violating T&Cs.

[MacroGuru]

For me, with the traveling I do, I keep all my airline miles and hotel points, they cover the MAJOR expenses for a family vacation...I then have to worry about food and fun only.

I understand CC reward points, but it's why I have one that gives me air miles.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by cartman

From the FAQ, they walk a fine line.



They are correct in stating there is no law restricting the sale. But on the flip side there are T&Cs for the programs that do not allow it. There are no legal protections either if the program freezes or cancels your account for violating T&Cs.

A frequent traveling acquaintance I know has taken steps to insure the value of his frequent flyer miles, FWIW.

[bhlloy]

How does 120% work if it's not a scam? Amex points are at best dollar for dollar if you book travel through them and on most affiliate sites it's less than that, no?

[cartman]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

How does 120% work if it's not a scam? Amex points are at best dollar for dollar if you book travel through them and on most affiliate sites it's less than that, no?

They are making money off of the difference in price from what the program will charge you.

So say a program will buy back your points at $.010 per point, and sell you extra points at $.015 per point.

These guys come in and offer you $.012 per point, you are getting more than the program will give you. If you need to purchase points, they will sell at $.0135, giving you a better deal than the program will.

Multiply that by millions and millions of points, and that's how they make their money. You are correct that the best value for the points it to use them for their intended purposes (booking travel, hotel rooms, etc). But if you want to convert them to cold hard cash, the programs intentionally devalue the points based on their buyback/conversion rates.

[DaddyTorgo]

Why not just convert them to AMEX gift cards and skip the questionable legality/possibility of having your account frozen.

Is that extra 20% really worth the hassle considering you're getting something "free?" Don't be greedy.

[digamma]

I think the reason is because the AmEx gift cards, while somewhat close to cash aren't fitting the bill for what is needed here. QS isn't looking to make money, just convert to cash with as little haircut as possible.

The way you used to be able to do this was a two step process to buy dollar coins from the US Mint with your credit or gift card and then deposit those into your bank account. The Mint has cracked down a bit (for a number of reasons, most notably abuse by people trying to rack up more miles and points) on this by upcharging for shipping and the coin packs.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by stevew

Quiksand probably busted out some shady gambling sporting goods store owner and now has a bunch of plane tickets to get rid of.

I laughed at this way harder than I should have

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by digamma

I think the reason is because the AmEx gift cards, while somewhat close to cash aren't fitting the bill for what is needed here. QS isn't looking to make money, just convert to cash with as little haircut as possible.

The way you used to be able to do this was a two step process to buy dollar coins from the US Mint with your credit or gift card and then deposit those into your bank account. The Mint has cracked down a bit (for a number of reasons, most notably abuse by people trying to rack up more miles and points) on this by upcharging for shipping and the coin packs.

You can use AmEx gift cards like a credit card anywhere AmEx is accepted though right?

So at that point it's just a shell-game of reallocating your own finances in your head.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

You can use AmEx gift cards like a credit card anywhere AmEx is accepted though right?

So at that point it's just a shell-game of reallocating your own finances in your head.

Let me clarify on that: the dollar for dollar angle with gift cards is not for actual AmEx cards (you can get these, but at a horrible 1:2 exchange) - but for their retail partners. So, you can get full value as a GC for several places like Home Depot, Barnes & Noble, Pottery Barn, Crate & Barrel, Williams Sonoma, The Gap & their allies, and a decent variety of chain restaurants. (...and the sleeper Land's End, which has tremendous hidden versatility)

So, if I need $1000 worth of stuff from Home Depot or the like, I'm fine and I'm getting full value. If I don't... then I'm looking for my best alternative options. I am not wild about just letting this money sit in their bank, as their list of retail partners seems to be shrinking (Kohl's and Talbot's both dropped within the last few years) and I don't want to strand meaningful money letting this situation get worse.

[DaddyTorgo]

Aaaah - gotcha.

[henry296]

Could you find friends who want some of those retailers and do an exchange for cash?

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by henry296

Could you find friends who want some of those retailers and do an exchange for cash?

My guess is the internet after market is my best bet. Hard to track down someone who loveloveloveloves Pottery Barn enough to buy $5000 in gift cards there.