Survivor: Cagayan (Spoilers ahead!)

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Really? I have watched every season, I don't ever remember something so blatently endorsing another candidate, but I have killed a lot of brain cells over the years.

Well, there was the famous "Rat vs. Snake" speech from season one...

[Autumn]

I wondered too how much Jeff's questions at the final vote swayed Woo. Jeff came out and basically painted Tony's vote the time before as a vote of loyalty. I thought that was a bit of a reach given Tony's game, but you could see on Woo's face the impact it had on him. Woo clearly is a guy easily impressionable, and I wonder if that changed his mind at all to have it put in those terms.

[Kodos]

I think we all can be happy that Kass didn't win.

[Autumn]

What a crazy jury vote. I thought Trish had basically destroyed Tony's chances with her speech, I mean that was intense, especially coming on top of first Sarah asking him about the badge, LJ asking him about his wife and baby, then to close out with that. Tony looked destroyed emotionally (though I think he was right to finally own up to it and say 'yes' and maybe that's what saved him). But to follow that with Spencer's plea, it's interesting to wonder how much any of these things swayed voters or if they knew what they were going to do all along.

Tony certainly deserved the win, he showed on that last day how he could steer people, including Woo, who I think probably was seriously going to take Kass until Tony gave him that loyalty and integrity speech. Maybe it's just editing but I"d never heard Woo talk about that at all the whole game and suddenly it's his mantra? I think he just got played, he's just an impressionable guy, as we saw all game, who basically agrees with whoever gets to him last.

On the other hand, I feel like Woo probably feels good with his decision. Whereas I bet Kass is going to be eating herself up for years about how close she came. Spencer at least knows the reason he didn't get to the end is the others knew he would win.

[Autumn]

The real loser is Tony's friend, who got totally dissed for not being Tony's wife, lol.

[Autumn]

Props to Kass for those huge comebacks in the immunity challenges. That was amazing and played right into the brains vs. brawn thing they were going for this season.

[Lathum]

Looks like another Blood Vs Water for next year? We had storms that night and my Direct TV got dodgy wneh they were making the announcment.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Looks like another Blood Vs Water for next year? We had storms that night and my Direct TV got dodgy wneh they were making the announcment.

Yep and it will be all newbies.

[Autumn]

I didn't watch the last blood and water, but it doesn't sound like an encouraging idea to me. Was that season any good?

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Autumn

I didn't watch the last blood and water, but it doesn't sound like an encouraging idea to me. Was that season any good?

I thought it was one of the better ones in recent history

[Ironhead]

Watched all of the Ponderosa videos. The jury hated Kass so much. I have never seen someone so blatantly ignored by every single person upon their arrival to Ponderosa.

[Kodos]

She said so many nasty things about others this season.

[Autumn]

Yeah, tony was able to scheme and blindside yet still come across as likeable. Kass didn't seem to get that. giving Trish the finger after voting her out is not how you win a jury over. Surprising that she's the lawyer out of the bunch.

[Draft Dodger]

just got to watch the finale tonight. I thought Wu's decision to take Tony was okay, but he did a terrible job selling himself at the final tribal. I think he could have pulled it off if he had talked his game up a little bit.

[Mota]

Everybody plays the game for their own reason. Some people are playing to win. I do not believe that Woo was one of these people.
I think Tony definitely deserved to win so was happy with the result. It definitely points out one of the flaws in the game that by taking the best player to the finals with you is a mistake. Most people would choose to bring the goat and that's why we've had so many bad finales.

[kingfc22]

Tony clearly deserved the victory; however, I would have loved to see Tony and Spencer as the final two. I can't remember a season where the two best players made it to the final or let alone the final 4.

[Umbrella]

The goat situation is a big problem for survivor right now, and I'm not sure how to fix it. The problem is that finishing second is still worth 100K, and I feel like a lot of people are going in the game to finish second. Just be as unlikeable as possible, and let everyone drag you to the end for a near unanimous vote.

Here's an idea, which is probably terrible. Have a rule where if the final vote is unanimous, the loser is the winner. That way, you want to take someone you can beat, but not necessarily crush. Also, it could open up the possibility of people throwing a mercy vote to the loser so that the best player could win. If enough players do that, we could see a reversal, like Roy Jones in Korea. However, you would have to isolate the jury members from each other so there is no collusion.

I spend way too much time analyzing this stupid show.

[Kodos]

Change it so that you have to win your way into the final. Final challenge is live or die. Four men enter, two leave. No votes.

[Umbrella]

Originally Posted by Kodos

Change it so that you have to win your way into the final. Final challenge is live or die. Four men enter, two leave. No votes.

That's not a bad idea, but it does eliminate the social aspect of the game, which IMO is a big one. Sandra never won an individual challenge, yet she's a two time winner because she could always get people to vote for her at the end.

I'm sure smarter people than me have tried to fix this problem. The final three was a solution that worked initially, but not any more, as now people are trying to drag two goats to the end.

Maybe another solution is to get rid of the tribe shakeups. If you are dragging along goats, your tribe is going to be decimated. Players are now dumping threats at the beginning, knowing that a tribe switch will save them if things go bad. The problem with that is viewers don't like watching the same tribe lose week after week.

[Draft Dodger]

another problem is that too many goats don't realize they are goats.

[larrymcg421]

From Woo's interviews and interviews of other players, I believe Woo was trying to win and thought the honor and integrity schtick would buy him votes with a bitter jury.

Change it so that you have to win your way into the final. Final challenge is live or die. Four men enter, two leave. No votes.

This is way worse. You'd have MORE goats. The alliance leader would drag a bunch of weaklings to the end. Plus it overemphasizes the physical game.

[Umbrella]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

another problem is that too many goats don't realize they are goats.

That is even sadder if it's true.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

From Woo's interviews and interviews of other players, I believe Woo was trying to win and thought the honor and integrity schtick would buy him votes with a bitter jury.



This is way worse. You'd have MORE goats. The alliance leader would drag a bunch of weaklings to the end. Plus it overemphasizes the physical game.

Players might adapt to it, but the first time through, it might work out well. Might have given us Spencer vs. Tony this season.

[larrymcg421]

I'm amazed that people would want to make changes after what was such a terrific season. Not only that, but this is the 4th season in a row that was really strong.

I mean, each time the Brains went to tribal it was very exciting and compelling. Why do we want to change it just so the weakest physical person gets voted out each time? Zzzzzzzz.

Yes, the two best players aren't going to be in the final two in Survivor. That's inherent in the way the game works, but I see that as something that makes Survivor fascinating. It's also why the finale usually has two eliminations, because that first one often is the deciding elimination. And even with that, there are surprises like Natalie beating Russell or Sandra pretending to be a goat and beating Parvati and Russell.

[saldana]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Plus it overemphasizes the physical game.

i thought a big problem with this season (which makes tony's ability to win even greater, imo) is that the physical game got completely removed...there were some stamina challenges, but it seemed like EVERY immunity challenge had some kind of a puzzle at the end...there was a distinct advantage for the smarter players...i think with the exception of the Woo win at the end, every individual immunity was won by a Brain member.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Kodos

Players might adapt to it, but the first time through, it might work out well. Might have given us Spencer vs. Tony this season.

Even if we assume they don't adapt to this rule and the season plays out the same, Kass won the F4 challenge, so it would've been her and whoever would've finished 2nd in this challenge.

[Umbrella]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

I'm amazed that people would want to make changes after what was such a terrific season. Not only that, but this is the 4th season in a row that was really strong.

I mean, each time the Brains went to tribal it was very exciting and compelling. Why do we want to change it just so the weakest physical person gets voted out each time? Zzzzzzzz.

Yes, the two best players aren't going to be in the final two in Survivor. That's inherent in the way the game works, but I see that as something that makes Survivor fascinating. It's also why the finale usually has two eliminations, because that first one often is the deciding elimination. And even with that, there are surprises like Natalie beating Russell or Sandra pretending to be a goat and beating Parvati and Russell.

I think in general the seasons lately have been pretty good, but the finals have been anti-climatic. In the last five seasons, the second place finisher has averaged one vote. You have to go all the way back to the Fabio win to find a season where the final outcome was still in doubt.

And both of your examples use Russell, who was the perfect goat. A goat isn't always someone who sucks, it's someone who won't get any votes. His gameplay is perfect to finish second. He received a grand total of two votes in two final tribal councils.

The fact that the producers brought in Redemption Island shows that they are also concerned about this. Redemption Island isn't the answer IMO, but I haven't been able to come up with a better solution.

Who knows, maybe they should go back to the old days and see how everyone reacts. No idols, no tribal switching, no twists. I could see players overthinking this too much.

[Umbrella]

Originally Posted by saldana

i thought a big problem with this season (which makes tony's ability to win even greater, imo) is that the physical game got completely removed...there were some stamina challenges, but it seemed like EVERY immunity challenge had some kind of a puzzle at the end...there was a distinct advantage for the smarter players...i think with the exception of the Woo win at the end, every individual immunity was won by a Brain member.

This. I understand they don't want the physically weak players to have no shot, but I think they should mix things up. Have strength challenges. Have endurance challenges. Have puzzle challenges. Mix it up and give everyone a chance to showcase their strengths. As it stands now, if you suck at puzzles, you will never win.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

just got to watch the finale tonight. I thought Wu's decision to take Tony was okay, but he did a terrible job selling himself at the final tribal. I think he could have pulled it off if he had talked his game up a little bit.

Interesting. Am I the only one who went in to the final tribal assuming Tony had it wrapped up, then thought "Man, Woo is actually going to pull this off" during the questions?

I realize that's mostly editing, but they really had me thinking that Tony was going to lose.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Umbrella

The goat situation is a big problem for survivor right now, and I'm not sure how to fix it. The problem is that finishing second is still worth 100K, and I feel like a lot of people are going in the game to finish second.

But doesn't it go something like $1M / 100K / 50K/ and then a fairly gradual drop down to like $5K?

It would seem that under that sort of system, playing a strategy that gives you a good shot at second (but no chance of winning) seems insanely dumb.

[Autumn]

I was also struck by the preponderance of puzzles this season. That really sucked for Tony (not that it mattered) becuase he was pretty good at challenges, but couldn't solve a puzzle for anything. It also was striking how much untying there was this season. If you can't undo knots you were screwed.

I don't think there is anything I'd want to change about the setup -- the point of the show is the entire season, not just the last episode. The more clear the eventual winner is, the more people should be trying to get rid of them. If Tony was a shoo-in at the end (which he nearly was not) it's because he played well, and people failed to get rid of him when he could. That's what's entertaining about the show is it's all in the contestants' hands, yet they surprise you by not doing what they should.