The McCardell fumble return

Maple Leafs · 10-07-2003, 10:47 AM

Forget the "leaping" penalty... is anyone else's fantasy league in turmoil over the McCardell fumble return TD? Some sites count it as a TB defensive score, some don't.

I can't see how it could really be considered a defensive TD, but according to some, it is. And of course, in cirtually every case this is the deciding factor in a matchup.

Any commishes out there, you have my sympathy.

EagleFan · 10-07-2003, 11:33 AM

It should by no means be a defensive touchdown. The only correct way to handle it would be to not handle it and ignore the score. Unless it is clearly stated that any of your players can get points for a fumble return for a touchdown.

Just my 2 cents.

Butter · 10-07-2003, 11:39 AM

But technically it IS a defensive touchdown. If you were a real NFL rules stickler, it should be credited as a TB defensive touchdown... because according to the rules, as soon as Indy gets the ball they're on offense.

I'll have to go see how Yahoo scored it.

Butter · 10-07-2003, 11:47 AM

Yahoo scored it a fumble recovery and defensive TD for the Tampa defense.

Maple Leafs · 10-07-2003, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Butter_of_69
But technically it IS a defensive touchdown. If you were a real NFL rules stickler, it should be credited as a TB defensive touchdown... because according to the rules, as soon as Indy gets the ball they're on offense.

Right... but as soon as TB gets the ball back, don't they then become the offense again? If you follow the rules to the letter (i.e. the team with possession is automatically "the offense") then there'd be no such thing as a defensive touchdown in fantasy scoring. They'd all be offensive.

Daimyo · 10-07-2003, 11:52 AM

If Tampa Bay was on offense, fumbled the ball, and a Bucs player recovered and ran it in for a TD than it officially counts as rushing yardage and a rushing TD right? So I'd think you either count it as rushing yards/TD or as a defensive TD.... I assume this has happened before so the NFL should have official scoring rules for it I'd imagine.

QuikSand · 10-07-2003, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Daimyo
If Tampa Bay was on offense, fumbled the ball, and a Bucs player recovered and ran it in for a TD than it officially counts as rushing yardage and a rushing TD right? So I'd think you either count it as rushing yards/TD or as a defensive TD.... I assume this has happened before so the NFL should have official scoring rules for it I'd imagine.

Rushing plays are, by definition, from scrimmage. I've never seen a fumble recovery be classified as anythuing but just that- a fumble recovery. Any yardage gained just goes into the nebulous category of any other return yardage - it's neither passing nor rushing, just "return" yardage that sometimes gets aggregated for convenience.

I think this is principally a fantasy football problem, and not a real football problem.

cthomer5000 · 10-07-2003, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by QuikSand
I think this is principally a fantasy football problem, and not a real football problem.

If Keenan comes up a few yards short of a contract incentive, his agent may disagree with you.

Celeval · 10-07-2003, 12:55 PM

My take is based on something completely irrelevant... so that's pretty normal.

If a defense (A) is playing against Kansas City, and completely shuts them down (0 points allowed from offense), but Dante Hall scores 12 times on returns (84 points); how does the defense score?

If the defense is counted against for 84 points, then you get credit for the defensive fumble return/TD. [Since defense is including non-from-scrimmage defense]

If the defense is counted against for 0 points, then no credit.

Maple Leafs · 10-07-2003, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Celeval
My take is based on something completely irrelevant... so that's pretty normal.

The problem is that most leagues these days count "Def/ST" as one unit.

Butter · 10-07-2003, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Maple Leafs
Right... but as soon as TB gets the ball back, don't they then become the offense again? If you follow the rules to the letter (i.e. the team with possession is automatically "the offense") then there'd be no such thing as a defensive touchdown in fantasy scoring. They'd all be offensive.

Well... no. If Doss had scored with the fumble it would have been a defensive TD. As it was, it is scored an INT and a fumble (which I don't believe are classified as offensive or defensive... just fumbles) on the same play. Not an offensive fumble, but a fumble. Since Indy had possession of the ball, and TB was on "defense" (sort of), if they get the ball back during the course of the play, it becomes yet another turnover and return yards, fumble recovery, etc. that counts for the defense. Since there are essentially 3 classifications of TD's (offense, defense, and special teams), this couldn't rightly be considered an offensive rushing TD, IMO, nor obviously is it a special teams TD. Which leaves you defense. Which is how it'll be recorded, officially.

EagleFan · 10-07-2003, 04:09 PM

For those saying it is a defensive touchdown, then why does the NFL not have it listed in the team defensive stats? He shows up in the miscellaneous stats with a fumble recovery, like any other offensive player that recovered a fumble, but not in the defensive stats as a fumble recovery.

Butter, you say it is not an offensive rushing touchdown. You're right, but that doesn't make it an offensive touchdown. If an offensive player fumbled the ball and another one picked it up and ran it for a touchdown it would still not be an offensive rushing touchdown so would you classify that as a defensive touchdown by your definition?

TargetPractice6 · 10-07-2003, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Butter, you say it is not an offensive rushing touchdown. You're right, but that doesn't make it an offensive touchdown. If an offensive player fumbled the ball and another one picked it up and ran it for a touchdown it would still not be an offensive rushing touchdown so would you classify that as a defensive touchdown by your definition?

But in that scenario the ball never changed possessions...

Pumpy Tudors · 10-08-2003, 12:14 AM

Tampa Bay directly converted a change of possession into points. In my experience with fantasy football, that should classify it as a defensive touchdown. The only thing that bothers me if that (if I understand what I read on my CBS Sportsline league site correctly) they did not credit McCardell with 6 points for returning that fumble. That makes much less sense than the Bucs defense getting credit for 6.

Sporkimata · 10-08-2003, 12:58 AM

We use a website called rts sports and here is what they had to say on the issue, in case anyone cares at all.

OK, we know we are going to e-mail about this no matter how the play is interpreted, but...

The AP originally ruled Kennan McCardell's fumble recovery a DEFENSIVE TD, but then correctly changed it to an OFFENSIVE TD. We actually consulted with the NFL office about this issue years ago. Unlike a special teams play -- where the special teams unit is either the offense or defense as soon as the ball passes the line of scrimmage -- during a normal play the offensive unit is still considered to be on offense throughout the life of the play, even if there is a change of possession.

Maple Leafs · 10-08-2003, 08:20 AM

From what I can tell, RTS may be the only major web site that's scoring it that way. Yahoo, Fanball and CBS are all calling it a defensive TD.

Personally, I agree with the RTS reasoning, but it looks like we're in the minority.

cthomer5000 · 10-08-2003, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Maple Leafs
From what I can tell, RTS may be the only major web site that's scoring it that way. Yahoo, Fanball and CBS are all calling it a defensive TD.

Personally, I agree with the RTS reasoning, but it looks like we're in the minority.

I agree. The offensive unit is on the field. No matter how the points are scored at the end of the play, you would HAVE to consider it an offensive TD.

I feel bad for anyone who lost (fantasy football) because of it being ruled a defensive touchdown, or those who lost by missing out on the touchdown for McCardell. Very luckily it was a complete non-factor in my league, McCardell wasn't started and the Tampa D was involved in a complete blow-out game. Still, I hope the playoff teams don't come down to a few points.

Samdari · 10-08-2003, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by QuikSand
Rushing plays are, by definition, from scrimmage. I've never seen a fumble recovery be classified as anythuing but just that- a fumble recovery. Any yardage gained just goes into the nebulous category of any other return yardage - it's neither passing nor rushing, just "return" yardage that sometimes gets aggregated for convenience.

I think this is principally a fantasy football problem, and not a real football problem.

Actually, when an offensive player recovers a fumble by his own team, he is credited with a rushing attempt.

cthomer5000 · 10-08-2003, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Samdari
Actually, when an offensive player recovers a fumble by his own team, he is credited with a rushing attempt.

It seems like they should. I know that's the case with a lateral, which is really just a controlled fumble.

But in this case McCardell will be credited with mysterious "return" yardage and a miscellaneous touchdown... right?

Samdari · 10-08-2003, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cthomer5000
But in this case McCardell will be credited with mysterious "return" yardage and a miscellaneous touchdown... right?

Yes, the distinction being that he recovered an opponents fumble, not one from his own team.

mckerney · 10-20-2003, 03:41 AM

More fantasy trouble this weekend? Do you count the lateral to Moe Williams as a TD pass for Culpepper? I could see a case either way for that.

VPI97 · 10-20-2003, 07:30 AM

Official NFL scoring says 44 receiving to Moss, 15 yd rushing TD to Williams, right? I had always thought that when a lateral occurs, the entire play went to the recipient...

Alan T · 10-20-2003, 07:57 AM

I had a play like this affect my fantasy team last year.. in that play, the person who finished with the ball got the reception yards and TD by the official scoring. I am no NFL stats expert though, so don't know the rules behind that, but if this play is scored the same way it affected me, then Moe Williams would end up with a 59 yard TD reception.

If it does not end that way, then I was screwed out of a win last year in my fantasy league by yahoo

Samdari · 10-20-2003, 08:09 AM

Moss got the yards to where he lateraled (44), Williams got the final 15, both as receiving. It went into the books as a 15 yard TD reception by Williams. Culpepper was credited with all 59 passing yards.

mckerney · 10-20-2003, 09:24 AM

Last night when I'd checked ESPN.com's boxscore Culpepper was listed as having 2 TD passes and Williams had a TD reception. Now it's updated and he only has 1, Moe Williams no longs is given a receiving TD, though he does have the same number of receiving yards at 50.

10-07-2003, 11:33 AM	#2
EagleFan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Mays Landing, NJ USA	It should by no means be a defensive touchdown. The only correct way to handle it would be to not handle it and ignore the score. Unless it is clearly stated that any of your players can get points for a fumble return for a touchdown. Just my 2 cents. __________________ The EagleFan YouTube Channel - Reactions Soarin' & Scratchin' YouTube Channel - We react to music, videos, TV, we talk, we are planning some field trips Soarin' & Soothin' - Meditation, Relaxation, and Sleep Aid; mental health is important

10-07-2003, 11:39 AM	#3
Butter Coordinator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Dayton, OH	But technically it IS a defensive touchdown. If you were a real NFL rules stickler, it should be credited as a TB defensive touchdown... because according to the rules, as soon as Indy gets the ball they're on offense. I'll have to go see how Yahoo scored it. __________________ My listening habits

10-07-2003, 11:47 AM	#4
Butter Coordinator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Dayton, OH	Yahoo scored it a fumble recovery and defensive TD for the Tampa defense. __________________ My listening habits

10-07-2003, 04:09 PM	#12
EagleFan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Mays Landing, NJ USA	For those saying it is a defensive touchdown, then why does the NFL not have it listed in the team defensive stats? He shows up in the miscellaneous stats with a fumble recovery, like any other offensive player that recovered a fumble, but not in the defensive stats as a fumble recovery. Butter, you say it is not an offensive rushing touchdown. You're right, but that doesn't make it an offensive touchdown. If an offensive player fumbled the ball and another one picked it up and ran it for a touchdown it would still not be an offensive rushing touchdown so would you classify that as a defensive touchdown by your definition? __________________ The EagleFan YouTube Channel - Reactions Soarin' & Scratchin' YouTube Channel - We react to music, videos, TV, we talk, we are planning some field trips Soarin' & Soothin' - Meditation, Relaxation, and Sleep Aid; mental health is important

10-08-2003, 12:14 AM	#14
Pumpy Tudors Bounty Hunter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Pittsburgh, PA	Tampa Bay directly converted a change of possession into points. In my experience with fantasy football, that should classify it as a defensive touchdown. The only thing that bothers me if that (if I understand what I read on my CBS Sportsline league site correctly) they did not credit McCardell with 6 points for returning that fumble. That makes much less sense than the Bucs defense getting credit for 6. __________________ No, I am not Batman, and I will not repair your food processor.

10-07-2003, 11:52 AM	#6
Daimyo College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Berkeley	If Tampa Bay was on offense, fumbled the ball, and a Bucs player recovered and ran it in for a TD than it officially counts as rushing yardage and a rushing TD right? So I'd think you either count it as rushing yards/TD or as a defensive TD.... I assume this has happened before so the NFL should have official scoring rules for it I'd imagine.

10-07-2003, 12:55 PM	#9
Celeval Pro Starter Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Cary, NC, USA	My take is based on something completely irrelevant... so that's pretty normal. If a defense (A) is playing against Kansas City, and completely shuts them down (0 points allowed from offense), but Dante Hall scores 12 times on returns (84 points); how does the defense score? If the defense is counted against for 84 points, then you get credit for the defensive fumble return/TD. [Since defense is including non-from-scrimmage defense] If the defense is counted against for 0 points, then no credit.

10-08-2003, 12:58 AM	#15
Sporkimata High School JV Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Kennewick WA	We use a website called rts sports and here is what they had to say on the issue, in case anyone cares at all. OK, we know we are going to e-mail about this no matter how the play is interpreted, but... The AP originally ruled Kennan McCardell's fumble recovery a DEFENSIVE TD, but then correctly changed it to an OFFENSIVE TD. We actually consulted with the NFL office about this issue years ago. Unlike a special teams play -- where the special teams unit is either the offense or defense as soon as the ball passes the line of scrimmage -- during a normal play the offensive unit is still considered to be on offense throughout the life of the play, even if there is a change of possession.

10-08-2003, 08:20 AM	#16
Maple Leafs Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2002	From what I can tell, RTS may be the only major web site that's scoring it that way. Yahoo, Fanball and CBS are all calling it a defensive TD. Personally, I agree with the RTS reasoning, but it looks like we're in the minority.

10-20-2003, 03:41 AM	#21
mckerney Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000	More fantasy trouble this weekend? Do you count the lateral to Moe Williams as a TD pass for Culpepper? I could see a case either way for that.

10-20-2003, 07:30 AM	#22
VPI97 Hokie, Hokie, Hokie, Hi Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Kennesaw, GA	Official NFL scoring says 44 receiving to Moss, 15 yd rushing TD to Williams, right? I had always thought that when a lateral occurs, the entire play went to the recipient... __________________ CT & Jivin - "Surprisingly Entertaining"

10-20-2003, 07:57 AM	#23
Alan T Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mass.	I had a play like this affect my fantasy team last year.. in that play, the person who finished with the ball got the reception yards and TD by the official scoring. I am no NFL stats expert though, so don't know the rules behind that, but if this play is scored the same way it affected me, then Moe Williams would end up with a 59 yard TD reception. If it does not end that way, then I was screwed out of a win last year in my fantasy league by yahoo __________________ Couch to ??k - From the couch to a Marathon in roughly 18 months.

10-20-2003, 08:09 AM	#24
Samdari Roster Filler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Cicero	Moss got the yards to where he lateraled (44), Williams got the final 15, both as receiving. It went into the books as a 15 yard TD reception by Williams. Culpepper was credited with all 59 passing yards. __________________ http://www.nateandellie.net Now featuring twice the babies for the same low price!

10-20-2003, 09:24 AM	#25
mckerney Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000	Last night when I'd checked ESPN.com's boxscore Culpepper was listed as having 2 TD passes and Williams had a TD reception. Now it's updated and he only has 1, Moe Williams no longs is given a receiving TD, though he does have the same number of receiving yards at 50.

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