Worst. Promotion. Ever.

[Desnudo]

That is one of the dumbest things on any level - marketing, sensitivity. Smiling ping pong balls, the lottery, and 9/11, together at last.

The fact that people are playing devil's advocate amazes me.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

You could also stay out of this thread.

How the hell was I to know what I'd run into? Last time I looked there was a conversation about a pretty bizarre marketing scheme going on, not some disgusting lunatic rambling about their perverse attitude. Even my normally cynical nature didn't see that shift coming.

Silly me I guess.

[Sun Tzu]

Word.

At least now I know that only people who are A.) disgusting, B.) lunatics and C.) perverse, would ever agree with me.

[Chief Rum]

All right, I am making a stand right here: I will refuse to ever buy one of Sun Tzu's albums.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Word.

At least now I know that only people who are A.) disgusting, B.) lunatics and C.) perverse, would ever agree with me.

I don't think I get your point of view in the thread personally. Not trying to attack anyone here, but I personally do feel bad when I see stories such as the Earthquakes in Haiti, Chile New Zealand, etc where there are deaths or injuries. I felt bad about Tsunamis, Hurricanes or whatever that have taken lifes or caused harm. I also feel bad for people who have innocently died, caught up in whatever warfare (random gang violence, bombings, or whatnot).

I feel bad in all of those cases I guess out of sympathy or humanity reasons, or who knows why, but I do. It is completely different for me than 9/11. With 9/11, I lost a co-worker, a friend who was on a flight out of Boston. Someone who's family had just met mine 3 weeks prior. It wasn't just some nameless face, but someone personal and because of that I felt a sense of loss. So of course 9/11 is going to feel differently to me than some other tragedy a thousand miles away. Likewise it feels differently to me than say Pearl Harbor or WW2. I don't feel that I am a hypocrite at all either. It is just how I feel and why I am still sensitive to remembering 9/11 over other things you keep bringing up.

[molson]

It's impossible to keep tabs on every tragedy/loss of life in the world. So unless a human shows zero emotion towards any tragic event they come in contact with, they're being inconsistent in some way. But its the nature of humans to be moved by things.

I mean, I wonder what Sun Tzu does personally, to allievate the harm caused by any tragedy in the world - he can't possibly help everyone equally. So is he morally obligated to help nobody?

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by molson

It's impossible to keep tabs on every tragedy/loss of life in the world. So unless a human shows zero emotion towards any tragic event they come in contact with, they're being inconsistent in some way. But its the nature of humans to be moved by things.

I mean, I wonder what Sun Tzu does personally, to allievate the harm caused by any tragedy in the world - he can't possibly help everyone equally. So is he morally obligated to help nobody?

I think you're taking what I said overboard, no offense. To say that I'm claiming that it's important to not only keep tabs on every tragedy in the world, but to also feel remorse for each of them, isn't much better than JimGA's personal attack.

Alan T is actually very closely in line with my point of view, despite his claiming to not understand it. He lost someone close to him, and thus feels the loss a bit more than others. Still, he feels badly when he hears of anyone dying unnecessarily, whether they're in Iraq, Israel or Idaho. People are people, and what bugs me is that such a large number of Americans feel that we are somehow special, superior even, to the extent that one American life is more valuable than a few dozen (or more) lives in Iraq or Germany. If you tell your typical hoo-ra American patriot that an American died in battle, he would salute them as being a hero, meanwhile if they heard that 50 Iraqi's died in a stray missile/bomb, it would be "war is hell." I also partly blame films that romanticize the uber American image, like Blackhawk Down for example. I swear I see 500 Somalian militia/civilians die in that movie, but nobody cares, it's all about feeling bad for the half dozen Americans who fall victim to the evil dark skinned foreign man's violent ways. I remember talking about that movie to a buddy just last year, telling him that it's a perfect example of why you'd have to be crazy to join the military, and his response was classic USA: "Are you kidding? That movie made me want to enlist!" Of course this is just one example, and of course I know the death toll numbers were roughly double that IRL, but I think you get the picture.

A person is a person is a person. If someone dies unnecessarily, then it's a tragedy. If I knew the person, especially if I was close to them, it's probably going to affect me more than reading about some stranger online, but nonetheless I will be affected in both instances.

*edit* as a side note, I'd like to state that I'm not one to sit through a violent movie like BHD, and point out all of the things wrong with today's society. I own the movie, and I can appreciate action flicks for what they are: mindless entertainment.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

I think you're taking what I said overboard, no offense. To say that I'm claiming that it's important to not only keep tabs on every tragedy in the world, but to also feel remorse for each of them, isn't much better than JimGA's personal attack.

Alan T is actually very closely in line with my point of view, despite his claiming to not understand it. He lost someone close to him, and thus feels the loss a bit more than others. Still, he feels badly when he hears of anyone dying unnecessarily, whether they're in Iraq, Israel or Idaho. People are people, and what bugs me is that such a large number of Americans feel that we are somehow special, superior even, to the extent that one American life is more valuable than a few dozen (or more) lives in Iraq or Germany. If you tell your typical hoo-ra American patriot that an American died in battle, he would salute them as being a hero, meanwhile if they heard that 50 Iraqi's died in a stray missile/bomb, it would be "war is hell." I also partly blame films that romanticize the uber American image, like Blackhawk Down for example. I swear I see 500 Somalian militia/civilians die in that movie, but nobody cares, it's all about feeling bad for the half dozen Americans who fall victim to the evil dark skinned foreign man's violent ways. I remember talking about that movie to a buddy just last year, telling him that it's a perfect example of why you'd have to be crazy to join the military, and his response was classic USA: "Are you kidding? That movie made me want to enlist!" Of course this is just one example, and of course I know the death toll numbers were roughly double that IRL, but I think you get the picture.

A person is a person is a person. If someone dies unnecessarily, then it's a tragedy. If I knew the person, especially if I was close to them, it's probably going to affect me more than reading about some stranger online, but nonetheless I will be affected in both instances.

Are you doing anything to help the Somalis? Maybe some people are misguided when they go overboard in support of what they perceive as the "good side", (I would hardly call is a majority, more like a small minority) but at least they're trying to do good. Many others do what they can to help situations in Haiti, Rwanda, etc. I think you can drive yourself crazy being bitter about what you perceive other people's attitudes to be. That doesn't make anything better, or cure any injustices.

Different things move us. We all have our pet causes. Usually, the pet cause is something that has some connection to our lives, we just wouldn't be as moved by it if didn't. What I hear from you is criticism of other people's pet causes, what moves them, but a lot of silence on who or what you actually help, or what moves you, if anything.

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by molson

Are you doing anything to help the Somalis? Maybe some people are misguided when they go overboard in support of what they perceive as the "good side", (I would hardly call is a majority, more like a small minority) but at least they're trying to do good. Many others do what they can to help situations in Haiti, Rwanda, etc.

I don't do much to help people on that level. I make it a rule of thumb to donate at least $1 every time I go grocery shopping to some charity, but that's all. I do more along the lines of trying to keep our world healthier. Beach cleanups, re-using furniture, composting, driving zero emission vehicles, not using electricity when it's not necessary, etc...

[CAsterling]

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

"Did we give up when Germans bombed Pearl Harbor!"

Classic.......really, when did this happen....

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by CAsterling

Classic.......really, when did this happen....

It's a line form a commercial or movie or something...

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by CAsterling

Classic.......really, when did this happen....

Originally Posted by Lathum

It's a line form a commercial or movie or something...

This is the most ridiculous part of this entire thread.

[CAsterling]

Darn, I leave the country for a few years and I'm out of date with current references of this type....my bad, thanks for letting me know.

[Sun Tzu]

Forget it, he's rolling.

[JediKooter]

We should put him on double secret probation.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Forget it, he's rolling.

Awesome. Now that's teamwork.

[CAsterling]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Forget it, he's rolling.

Nope, definitely lost with that phrase, it probably doesn't mean what I think it means, that would be inconceivable.

Back on the actual subject, I can't see what the big deal is with this promotion - it's been 9 years, how long is the subject off limits?

If people don't try this type of promotion then how do you find out when it is acceptable to use the subject for advertising.

[Pumpy Tudors]

IT WAS A LINE FROM "THE KARATE KID" OK??? CAN WE MOVE ON NOW????

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by CAsterling

Nope, definitely lost with that phrase, it probably doesn't mean what I think it means, that would be inconceivable.

Not remotely. Because iocane comes from Australia, as everyone knows, and Australia is entirely peopled with criminals...

[TroyF]

Sun Tzu,

What bothers me with the last post is two fold:

1) Americans do feel bad for people in other countries. We do. Not to the same level we feel in our own country, but we damned well aren't thrilled when something horrific happens somewhere else.

2) You take a major real life military initiative which you clearly know little about and use some Hollywood movie as your guide for that initiative?

Seriously?

Do you even know what the conflict was about? Do you know why we were even there? You do realize the regime we were trying to wipe out had killed over 500,000 people and made over 1.5 million others refugees, right?

We screwed up. We thought we had the general captured and ended up killing 60 people, many civilians. We had another mission to capture two leading members of the cabinet and it backfired and became the basis for the book and movie Black Hawk Down.

The goal was to save hundreds of thousands of lives. It got twisted around and the mission failed. The sad part? Because of our failure there and because we couldn't curb things, the violence hasn't stopped. Over the last few years, another 20,000 civilians have been killed. (many by the Ethiopian army.)

The worst part? The failure directly impacted how we dealt with the genocides of Rwanda and Bosnia. (two conflicts where over 1 million civilians were slaughtered)

Clinton himself said that if he had put 5,000 peacekeeping troops, he could have saved 500,000 lives. (Note: I don't blame Clinton here, there was severe pressure from the country to stay out of it. I don't think he knew what was happening until it was too late)

Also in Somalia, you may want to look at this quote:

The parallel with Mogadishu is that gunmen in that battle hid behind walls of civilians and were aware of the restraint of the (Army) Rangers. These gunmen literally shot over the heads of civilians, or between their legs. They used women and children for this. It's mind-boggling. When a ten-year-old is running at your vehicle with an AK-47, do you shoot the kid? Yes, you shoot the kid. You have to survive.

Battles like The Battle of Mogadishu are not something you can put into a little data bank and make simplistic judgments. They are difficult, hard decisions where action or inaction can cause civilian deaths. I know of nobody who watched the movie and cheered at civilian Somalians getting killed. The movie was dark and showed a portrait of a life any of us here could never fathom.

I guess this is where I leave and stop posting in the thread. Your thoughts and your simplistic ideals sicken me.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

We should put him on double secret probation.

lol, I just remembered what it;s from...

[Sun Tzu]

Oh ok, so the killing is justified then.

My bad.

Did it sound like this in your head when you were reading my post?

"blah blah blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah Blackhawk Down, blah blah blah blah blah blah, Somalia..OH NO YOU DI'INT!"

If that's the case, then I know what the whooshing sound I just heard was.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Oh ok, so the killing is justified then.

My bad.

You live in a total dream world if you don't think some killings are justified.

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by Lathum

You live in a total dream world if you don't think some killings are justified.

Please point out to me where I said "there are no killings that are justified"

thx

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Oh ok, so the killing is justified then.

My bad.

I'll bite one last time troll. . . where exactly did I say it was justified? I said the decisions were not cookie cutter and easy. I said that action or inaction could cause civilian deaths.

My guess is before I posted, you didn't even know what the damned battle was called and your only knowledge of it consisted of a Hollywood film. Am I off? Quick, without looking back at my post, tell me the name of the Somalian warlord we were trying to kill.

You know you can't. You try to use simplistic bumper sticker ideals and can't comprehend the world isn't that simple. You can't even respond to my posts with any type of serious response. You took what I wrote in the post above and moved it to that level? Seriously?

By the way, if you read accurately, I posted how horrible it was that we failed. The cost went higher than the 500 or so civilians that were killed in that conflict. The cost of the failure of that one mission was directly related to over 1 million civilians dying. Good reading comprehension.

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by TroyF

...

Thanks for the personal attacks. You know, you could have just posted this and gone on your merry way.

Do I know the name of the warlord we were trying to kill? Nope. Did you completely take my post out of context? In-Deed. Here, I'll quote myself to assist you.

"People are people, and what bugs me is that such a large number of Americans feel that we are somehow special, superior even, to the extent that one American life is more valuable than a few dozen (or more) lives in Iraq or Germany. If you tell your typical hoo-ra American patriot that an American died in battle, he would salute them as being a hero, meanwhile if they heard that 50 Iraqi's died in a stray missile/bomb, it would be "war is hell." I also partly blame films that romanticize the uber American image, like Blackhawk Down for example. I swear I see 500 Somalian militia/civilians die in that movie, but nobody cares, it's all about feeling bad for the half dozen Americans who fall victim to the evil dark skinned foreign man's violent ways. I remember talking about that movie to a buddy just last year, telling him that it's a perfect example of why you'd have to be crazy to join the military, and his response was classic USA: "Are you kidding? That movie made me want to enlist!" Of course this is just one example, and of course I know the death toll numbers were roughly double that IRL, but I think you get the picture."

Yeesh.

[molson]

Originally Posted by CAsterling

Back on the actual subject, I can't see what the big deal is with this promotion - it's been 9 years, how long is the subject off limits?

The subject isn't "off limits", but what other massive tragedies are subject of lottery promotions? Is there a Pearl Harbor scratch game out there I haven't seen?

[molson]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Please point out to me where I said "there are no killings that are justified"

thx

You don't think WWII was justified, correct?

[molson]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

There should be a modifier in there. "we damned well aren't thrilled, as long as the people in charge haven't told us they're a bad and evil people we should be scared of. We've got plenty of sympathy for other people, as long as they don't disagree with us.

Again, who's this "we"? There's plenty of American charities and individuals dedicated to improving the lives of people in other countries, in far away places. (The way you lecture everyone about their values, I'm sure you're a massive contributor and volunteer for all of them.)

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by molson

You don't think WWII was justified, correct?

Do I think the 48 million people that died in WWII, died justifiably?

Hell no.

Were there a handful of people (especially compared to the 48M) that did some terrible stuff, that, IMO, shouldn't be allowed to continue to live? Yes.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Do I think the 48 million people that died in WWII, died justifiably?

Hell no.

Were there a handful of people (especially compared to the 48M) that did some terrible stuff, that, IMO, shouldn't be allowed to continue to live? Yes.

That doesn't really answer the question I was looking for, perhaps I didn't ask it right.

Was the U.S. justified in entering WWII?

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by molson

That doesn't really answer the question I was looking for, perhaps I didn't ask it right.

Was the U.S. justified in entering WWII?

Here are some follow ups to molson's question-- Do you think the Nazi regime could have been removed in some way that did not involve war? Do you think there were avenues that the Allies should have considered that they ignored in favor of war to stop Hitler? Do you believe it would it have been better to let Hitler's regime go on unchallenged, for sake of avoiding war?

Oh, and if your answer to that last is yes, is your real name Neville Chamberlain the IV?

[molson]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

I swear I see 500 Somalian militia/civilians die in that movie, but nobody cares, it's all about feeling bad for the half dozen Americans who fall victim to the evil dark skinned foreign man's violent ways. .

People cared deeply about the warlord/famine situation in Somalia prior to the military engagement there. I have no idea what the government's "real" motive was in going in, but regular people definitely cared deeply about the massive loss of life there. When Americans started getting killed there, most Americans wanted out. Which seems pretty reasonable. But that's a real-life, tough kind of choice, where there's people getting killed either way.

1. Kill more militants, civilians, and lose more Americans so that more Somalis MIGHT have more access to food.

2. Leave, to ensure the safety of Americans, and to guarantee that American aggression doesn't make the entire situation worse.

Your cop-out is "war is bad/death is bad", but that's not a choice here. You have death and suffering either way. WWII, and most other international conflicts have similar questions. It's not just "kill or don't kill".

Are you an isolationist? Do you think the U.S. military should just never be utilized? That's a reasonable opinion, but it certainly would lead to more death and suffering in certain, limited situations (and you're never sure how exactly that equation will shake out before you make the decision either way).. And obviously there was places where we didn't intervene militarily, where lives could have been saved it we did (Sudan, Rwanda). Were we right not to break out the guns there too?

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by molson

That doesn't really answer the question I was looking for, perhaps I didn't ask it right.

Was the U.S. justified in entering WWII?

Your question isn't a matter of yes and no. It's like asking me if I would rather rape girl A or girl B. No country will ever have justification for death on a large scale.

[Sun Tzu]

I have to say, I never expected to get so much opposition from the stance of "unnecessary killing is bad, and I feel for anyone who dies unnecessarily regardless of race or creed."

[molson]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

It's like asking me if I would rather rape girl A or girl B.

And that's exactly the kind of question real governments actually face, and exactly the kind of question real people face in determining whether they support the particular military action (or whatever) at issue.

You don't want to answer the question, but then criticize everyone else's answer.

It's fine to be a pacifist and sit it out and not have an opinion either way, but I don't think it's fair to then assign insincere motives to people who are simply chosing to consider the difficult questions, where no matter the answer - girls are getting raped. The only "right" answer is the one that involves the least amount of rapes as possible, and there's plenty of room for disagreement on that on a case-by-case basis.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

I have to say, I never expected to get so much opposition from the stance of "unnecessary killing is bad, and I feel for anyone who dies unnecessarily regardless of race or creed."

I think the issue you're running up against is that you have a severely optimistic definition of "unnecessary".

[molson]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I think the issue you're running up against is that you have a severely optimistic definition of "unnecessary".

And that the "majority" of people who don't share that optimistic definition are mindless, blind patriots.

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by molson

You don't want to answer the question, but then criticize everyone else's answer.

It's fine to be a pacifist and sit it out and not have an opinion either way, but I don't think it's fair to then assign insincere motives to people who are simply chosing to consider the difficult questions.

No, I'm just choosing the option that many others are too brainwashed to consider a possibility, and that includes Americans and non-Americans. Unfortunately, Violent act A and Violent act B are the choices pounded into the minds of too many. *waves at TroyF*

[Sun Tzu]

I will very gladly take the label of over the top optimist, especially here. Thank you!

[molson]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

No, I'm just choosing the option that many others are too brainwashed to consider a possibility, and that includes Americans and non-Americans. Unfortunately, Violent act A and Violent act B are the choices pounded into the minds of too many. *waves at TroyF*

But you're not identfying any "choice C"s, where nobody gets raped.

What's the peaceful solution to WWII, Somalia, Sudan, Rwanda, ect?

You're calling people brainwashed for deciding between A and B, and not considering this mysterious "Choice C" that you refuse to articulate.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

No, I'm just choosing the option that many others are too brainwashed to consider a possibility, and that includes Americans and non-Americans. Unfortunately, Violent act A and Violent act B are the choices pounded into the minds of too many. *waves at TroyF*

But, you see, that kinda of over-generalization of your "opposition" is one of the primary reasons you're getting such staunch opposition. You see things too much in black and white. And those who disagree with you, you demonize them or declare them to be intellectually diminished or "blind patriots". You talk about Troy's personal attacks, but your entire attitude is pretty much a more subtly written insult to any who disagree with you.

This sanctimonious approach does not endear you to those who disagree with you.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

I will very gladly take the label of over the top optimist, especially here. Thank you!

My use of "optimism" isn't situation based but actually a reflection on the disparity betwen your view and the view of reality. I don't think it's a stance you should promote.

[Chief Rum]

Well, that was fun. I'm off to work (second work). Good luck, the rest o'y'all.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Lathum

lol, I just remembered what it;s from...

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

No, I'm just choosing the option that many others are too brainwashed to consider a possibility, and that includes Americans and non-Americans. Unfortunately, Violent act A and Violent act B are the choices pounded into the minds of too many. *waves at TroyF*

The problem is you see war as an unnecessary evil, when in fact as long as there are people like Hitler etc... war is very necessary. If you think there is a peaceful solution to every problem you are just sorely mistaken.

[Sun Tzu]

Far too much reading between the lines going on in here.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

isn't much better than JimGA's personal attack.

That was a kiss on the cheek, three dozen roses, and a fucking sonnet that would make Shakespeare weep with envy compared to what I really think.

[Sun Tzu]

k

[MacroGuru]

Honestly...this thread got everyones