One huge oversight - best villians

[Axxon]

Hi guys,

Just got back from an involuntary exile from the online universe. I'm only partially back as I'm cursed with dial up but it beats the alternative.

I have been reading some of the "movie think" threads and in particular the "top 100 heroes and villians" thread and I've noticed a major oversight on the list. It's also a major oversight on the top movies lists IMHO but I'd more defend the vileness and memorableness ( from the first second of his first scene ) of the very undernoticed but untopped villian Albert Spica from the classic film "the cook, the thief, his wife & her lover" which is strangely enough a seemingly vanilla titled but sublimely fittingly titled movie.

Has anybody here even seen this flick? If so, what did you think. My blood honestly still boils whenever I think about Albert Spica; he's that vile. The pure genius of his vileness is that he is extremely over the top but NEVER ONCE overachieves the conceivable limits of vileness. ALbert Spica's of the world exist, period.

While it's normally great relief to view the comeuppance of such characters, in most tales the heroic persons usually do so in a heroic fashion. Not so in this movie. Spica meets an end far more vile than any he has caused others yet no one in their right mind can pity him. You simpy cannot, but you cannot wrap your mind around accepting the goodness of the just end he meets but it is ectremely satisfyingly just. The very conflicting nature of the scenario and it's closure drives the very genius of the film. Evil doesn't win; good doesn't lose or does it??

In the immediate it seems that the more virtuous side win but in the severity of their actions can they even remotely be considered the good guys? Has the very virtue of goodness become meaningless when viewed from the prism of reality presented?

I can't say but if you haven't seen the movie I'd urge you to give it a rental. WARNING. This is NOT a date flick.

[WussGawd]

Great film. Yeah, he's a great villain.

[MIJB#19]

Ouch, 1½ months away!

[KWhit]

I didn't much care for this movie. I usually enjoy edgy, gritty, non-hollywood movies such as that one is, but I thought it tried too hard to be "bad". It's been years since I have seen it, but from what I remember, I was turned off because the script and the performances seemed forced.

But that's just me...

[cuervo72]

Hmm, the movie was...interesting. I loved their use of colors though (changed from room to room).

[Axxon]

Originally posted by MIJB#19
Ouch, 1½ months away!

It's felt more like a year Matthijs, trust me.

I wrote this post this morning and judging by the lack of replies I can see why he didn't make any lists.

I did get some serious food for thought from the exercise and I'm going to try to express my thoughts here but I know I'm not going to do the concepts justice. I'm pretty sure it's going to be a long post though.

I wholeheartedly believe what I wrote above in regards to how I view the world and later I googled the movie and read a review that basically said the opposite. The reviewer was simply overjoyed by the monsters fate and stated that barring the viewer being "grossed out" by it that they would be thrilled as well.

He's probably right. I'm reminded once again of the huge divide between how I view the world and how most others do. It fills me with deep sadness and is one of the main reasons I state that "I hate people. Not any individual, just the species." and why I chose to change my signature to the Timon ( a famous people hater ) quote.

I have two equally important threads to follow here and I can't really decide which one to go first with. I'll state them both then go with one.

1. I've begun to realize that I hate justice. It's a horrid thought that sounds good but in practice isn't. I've been struggling with this because it isn't an easy thing to come to grips with after all and it's mostly been a feeling rather than a cogent and clearly thought out position.

2. Good people aren't necessarily good but they are better than the alternative and in the long run thats the best that we can hope for. The war threads especially bring this home to me as I really find myself at odds with some people I otherwise respect and yet the depth of my own personal feelings on morality won't allow me to easily overlook these elements and chalk what I hear and feel up to "difference of opinion."

It's like talking to someone who is being civil and nice but you realize that a monster lurks right behind the facade and only the thinnest of morality and social pressure keeps it at bay.

I'll start with killing as it's the pinnacle of the pyramid of morality and it was capital punishment and my feelings on it that started this thought path many years ago.

I guess it started with the following realization - the difference between a good, moral person and a monster is at what point they are willing to commit a morally reprehensible act.

If you are supportive of killing "certain people" if the killing is "just" then simply put you are saying that you don't necessarily have any problem with killing someone if the circumstances warrant and that is pretty much exactly what the murderer has concluded as well. You are just more in control of your murderous impulses but you certainly haven't risen above them.

Tangent 1.

Most death row inmates support capital punishment. I assume, not for themselves as they are innocent but for society in general. Presumably, their thoughts are in line with everybody elses but at some point they felt justified in killing and did so.

There is a razor thin line between in control, sane thinking and horrible justifications for abhorrant actions so I realize that the majority of the people in my country ( who vastly support capital punishment ) are a mere chemical or emotional episode from deciding that killing me would be warranted and doing it.

When society sets the line so close to the immoral act then it's asking for trouble but that's NOT what I'm getting at here. People generally feel that killing or other morally reprehensible acts aren't absolutes; they depend on the situation at the time and while mores and laws certainly can help shape attitudes, the underlying reality is that people are still savages at heart. Not an earth shaking revelation certainly but it feels like one when you actually put quite a bit of effort into understanding something and this is the conclusion you reach.

Tangent 2.

I have stated many times that the biggest thing that bothers me the most in the world is hypocricy. Better the savage that you know than the one you don't. This is the overlying reason that the above sticks in my craw so much and why I find it so hard to accept what I see in people who talk peace and morality but support savagery and the lowest common denominator. Still, if I don't want to live in a cave what choice do I have really??

Not to pick on a particular poster but in the have we changed thread someone said something to the effect that "it's sad that the events of 9/11 haven't taught us to be nicer to each other" yet they clearly supports getting the b$%tards who don't like us!!!!! This to me is one of the sweetest examples of irony I've encountered in a while. I don't think it's hypocricy however because he clearly takes an us vs them view and is consistant.

Us vs them and the main criteria in the definition is where your mother squirted you out at. Madness. Not his surely, but people in general. Again, I hate the species...

Now, to get back to hating justice.

When I was younger ( much ) I read something in a Steven Donaldson ( sp?) book which made the absolute most sense to me of anything I've ever heard. I'm going to paraphrase it here ( god I wish I'd memorized it ). It was the code of living that these people followed.

Never hurt where stopping is enough.
Never destroy where hurting is enough.

In other words, use just the amount of reaction that is necessary to solve your problem. This IS taking the moral high ground. Don't lower yourself to the level of someone whose actions you're calling bad.

Justice states the opposite though, well, not exactly but it differs greatly anyway. Justice somehow tries to "even the scales" and it becomes not enough to ( for example ) incarcerate someone and keep them away from society, you must kill them. It's an eye for an eye and it's barbaric and savage and in my opinion perpetuates that level of society.

When I hear people remark that they can't understand how people can be so evil nowadays I have to laugh. Is it really that tough to figure out? Again, there's a fine line between clear rational thought and twisted justifications for abhorant actions and when the bar is set so close to the negative people are going to cross it.

So, back to the movie and Albert Spica ( I know, I know, finally ). When he meets his end, it is certainly justice but when I watched it I felt no satisifaction. I wasn't grossed out, I was actually in awe of the scene and it's power but what I felt most was a deep deep sadness for what this monster had reduced Georgina and the cook to because really he had won as they had both stepped far over the line and were definately at that point no better than Albert.

In effect they validated his excesses by achieving their goals by resorting to the very same excesses. I was sad for them in what they felt was a supremely victorious moment which of course shows how out of step I really am I guess.

Sorry for the length and chaos of the post. I'm writing this at work which is a madhouse right now and the thoughts weren't that clear to begin with.

[Axxon]

Originally posted by KWhit
I didn't much care for this movie. I usually enjoy edgy, gritty, non-hollywood movies such as that one is, but I thought it tried too hard to be "bad". It's been years since I have seen it, but from what I remember, I was turned off because the script and the performances seemed forced.

But that's just me...

It's been a long time since I've seen it too. I didn't exactly get that feeling but I do see where you're coming from. The movie certainly is on the edge of forced but I would attribute that to the cinematography which was very very pretty but I felt there was too much of a conscious effort to use it to make certain points and make the thing artsy so I loved the visuals and hated them at the same time.