(9/11) Two years gone.. and have we really changed?

[SirFozzie]

For the second year running, I attended a September 11th rememberance at the local high school. Last year, there was 250 folks there.

This year there was 14. Out of a town of 12,000.

Has the raw, jagged edges of that horrible day been rubbed smooth? Or have we buried the memories of that day under a feeling that since we've knocked around the Taliban and Sadamm Hussein, that it can't happen again?

I still think about that day often. I still think of the lives lost. But I also think about the courage shown of the NYPD and FDNY. About how many more lives would have been lost.

There's a saying. “There is no greater love than this, that a man lay down his life for another.”

I thank God for those brave souls who journeyed into a Hell on Earth, because that was their job.

I'm sorry to explode in a rant, but it was just SAD to see how much it's seemingly forgotten. How it's been relegated to "Famous Event: X Years Later" status.

(sighs)

[sabotai]

"Two years gone.. and have we really changed?"

No.

[Philliesfan980]

Nope. And I don't think it will *EVER* (thats right, ever as in no possibility at all) change. In general, America is as rude as ever, nobody really cares about anyone at all. Its all about "me". Its terrible. I'm not going to say that I'm going to join the Peace Corps or anything, but I try and help out everyone else when I can.

(Note: Can you tell I had a long drive home tonight!)

[Qwikshot]

Here's the problem:

We haven't changed because we haven't eradicated the enemy, we haven't eradicated the enemy because we cannot find the enemy, we cannot find the enemy because the enemy is all over, the enemy is all over because we supplied the enemy, prior to the enemy being the enemy, because of the cold war.

We are losing soldiers in Iraq because we are not ruthless enough, the coalition forces are by no means soft, they just follow standards that the enemy doesn't (i.e. targeting civilians, ambushing in civilian clothing), all the similarities of Vietnam.

So how can we win against that?

How can we win in Afghanistan, if Pakistan won't let us follow al-Quaeda when they do sneak attacks and then run to the border, it'll take years to ferret them out, meanwhile they can sneak in an subvert any rebuilding process at any time, because their leadership is still active.

How can we even start rebuilding in Iraq when the Iraqis resent us, are against any support for us, and Saddam is still around, as well as Baath leadership, plus al-Quadea elements?

How can we start the process if we cannot even police Iraq? How can we get world support when it was that same world that we snubbed to attack Iraq in the first place?

How can regions of Asia and the Philipines go pretty much unchecked in al-Quaeda operations?

How can regions of Africa go unchecked?

How can we continue to allow the bloodshed to go on between Israel and Palestine? Isn't this the undying source of hostility between the Muslim fundamentalists and the U.S. anyway? (It is a big excuse)

What tactic can you do that will be consider condonable in the world's eyes, that can actually get the point across to our enemies...

Plus this all ignores the problems of China and North Korea, plus the questionable stability of Russia with its own Muslim issues.

The problem is once you've allowed a terrorist organization the leeway or the right to justify its actions, you open the floodgates...we've stopped that, but it is too late.

You can go and blame U.S. policy for arming these wackos but at the time, Russia (U.S.S.R) was the bigger problem to world stability, once they became a paper tiger, Europe suddenly didn't need the shield of America to protect us (thus the German and French resentment), those nations are trying to strengthen their own influence on a now free market.

So is the only way to make nations like Afghanistan and Iraq docile is by the same means of bruality that kept them dormant under the brutal despots that once ruled them?!?

Should we ship all able bodied Muslim males into camps for re-education?

Should we raze large tracts of Iraqi cities whenever an attack is made on coalition forces?

Should we pull out, let the war vacuum take hold and simply starve the new terror regime (probably bits of the old regime) out with embargos again?!

Should we invest in energies that don't rely on oil products, thus taking away the Middle East's major power source (isn't it amazing that the Middle East the hotbed of fundamentalism, that only when Iraq attacked Kuwait over oil sources, and the whole Israeli issue, Iran/Iraq, that most of the other nations are dormant against each other...Iraq was pretty secular during the Iran/Iraq war...only after its ending did Saddam play the fundamentalism card).?

None of these things are quick, and to try to educate a nation of terrorstriken survivors, fed on fear, and many whom may be ignorant thanks to lack of education other than what they've been told, is going to be a slow and thankless process.

It is times like these that you wish for leaders of yore? I wonder what Washington would do? Would Franklin or Adams be sent as an emissary? What would've Jefferson done?

In reality, most of America's presidents never had to deal with global policity save at the beginning and after we become a big power during the 2nd war (the first was how we became so important)...we've been hidden from these problems, but they are the one's we have made....

But I've rambled enough...statements are not meant to be concrete ideas which I support, they are simply meanderings of a tired mind, concerned of the mess we are in...

[rexallllsc]

Originally posted by Qwikshot
We are losing soldiers in Iraq because we are not ruthless enough, the coalition forces are by no means soft, they just follow standards that the enemy doesn't (i.e. targeting civilians, ambushing in civilian clothing), all the similarities of Vietnam.

So how can we win against that?
[/b]

I've thought the same many times...

[Qwikshot]

And if we were to become ruthless, to take no concern of global comment, are we not becoming what we so earnestly sought to protect ourselves from?

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes

[Philliesfan980]

Um, I think this thread is more of a "How have citizens changed" because of this. You know the "Be nicer to everyone" type thing that everyone was feeling for about 2 weeks after the incident, and after that 80% of the population mutated back into assholes that they were before 9/11.

[EagleFan]

It's a real shame how it has happened. The time after 9/11 made everyone proud to be an American, I know I was. The country suddenly had a heart and people's differences didn;t matter.

Unfortunately we're all too self-absorbed (we meaning the country as a whole) and once the bulk of the nation relized that it really didn't effect them much (by their perception) everything went back to how it was.

I know it's not good to dwell on problems, but it is important to remember them. They should play footage from that day just to remind people of just how bad it really was and to remind them of that feeling.

I saw a very touching documentary from that day shot by many different people from that area and it goes through that day and the days to follow. You get to see each individual perspective and also get to see how similar the response was, regardless of where they were at in the entire scheme of that day.

[korme]

I felt like I kept having to remind myself that today was 9/11. I have felt fairly patriotic today, and decided to do something I never do: I would come home from school and find out what programs were on later, specials about the memories of 9/11 or something, sit down and watch them. Not be on the internet like always and watch TV, but go away from my computer and focus in on the programs about the tragic event.

What'd I find? Nothing, only CNN was talking about 9/11. WTF man... it's only 2 years ago and people are already over it... such a shame, people don't really understand or I guess seem to remember how shocking that was. Something I know I will never, ever forget.

[Abe Sargent]

I hadn't changed the day later. I certainly haven't changed now.

-Anxiety

[Easy Mac]

Isn't the whole point that we haven't changed positive? The whole point of the attacks was to change how we lived, the mere fact they failed should account for something.

Oh, and I think the patriotism ended around the time the politicians started blaming eachother for who failed to stop the attacks.

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
Isn't the whole point that we haven't changed positive? The whole point of the attacks was to change how we lived, the mere fact they failed should account for something.

Agreed.

On another note:
I became an uncle this morning, and the first thing that struck me was that's a birthday that noone will forget.

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
Isn't the whole point that we haven't changed positive? The whole point of the attacks was to change how we lived, the mere fact they failed should account for something.

That's exactly my thought. The more things stay "business as usual," the less incentive they have to put so much time and effort into the next event. As long as we keep absorbing the hits - paying due respect to those who have been lost - but thereafter chugging along like always, the better chance we have of proving to the next generation of would-be terrorists that terrorism never really achieves its ultimate goals.

[Easy Mac]

Originally posted by lynchjm24
I became an uncle this morning, and the first thing that struck me was that's a birthday that noone will forget.

My nephew was born last Sept. 12. He was due on Sept. 11, but my sister somehow prolonged it until like 12:30 am so he wouldn't be born on the 1 year anniversary.

[EagleFan]

So the point is for everyone to keep being jerks to everyone and forget the actual sense of unity right after the attacks. It can still be business as usual without being selfish and self-absorbed.

We became a better country for a brief period following the attacks. Woudln't that be an even better solution than this whole 'business as usual' fall-back?

[IMetTrentGreen]

i changed for awhile. i just find it really hard to back this administration's efforts overseas, like using 9/11 for their own political gain

[Easy Mac]

Originally posted by EagleFan
So the point is for everyone to keep being jerks to everyone and forget the actual sense of unity right after the attacks. It can still be business as usual without being selfish and self-absorbed.

We became a better country for a brief period following the attacks. Woudln't that be an even better solution than this whole 'business as usual' fall-back?

I'm not sure what world you live in, but most people I know are actually nice to eachother. I know this is hard to believe, but 90% of the people I interact with are nice and polite. No offense, but if the world was as bad as people say it was prior to 9/11, shouldn't we be praising the terrorists for trying to evoke some change in a horrid world? I'm sorry people don't constantly join in group hugs and sing god bless america while in the checkout line, but actaully having to interact with numerous people in various jobs the past 2 years, I'd say the majority of the people are courteous and nice. Just like you don't remember that all day you didn't stub your toe, you sure as hell remember the 5 seconds in which you did.

[sterlingice]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
I'm not sure what world you live in, but most people I know are actually nice to eachother.

Well, he is named EaglesFan and they're not known for their caring nature

(Hell, I'd chuck batteries at JD Drew, given the chance, tho)

SI

[cuervo72]

Olde Glory as read by Dude Walker


A 3MB mp3, but a good listen.

[cthomer5000]

Originally posted by sabotai
"Two years gone.. and have we really changed?"

No.

I think New York (city) has changed more than the entire U.S.

[RendeR]

Have *I* changed? yes. I've become less trustful of people I do not know, be they american orn otherwise. I see this as a problem, but how am I to overcome that and feel secure in protecting myself and my family?

Am I more Patriotic? Yes. But I'm also really saddened by this administrations tactics. I love this country and I served this country during the first Gulf war. I understand what it means to a person to put their life on the line for others. It gives you an amazing sence of self worth. *I* made a difference. I will always be proud of my country and what it is supposed to stand for, no matter how far off course any given administration tries to take it.

have I changed how I live my life in general? Not really. and because of that I am glad we as a nation can show terrorists everywhere that they can never defeat us, they can only use themselves up trying to hurt us.

As for how people act daily...good god..I wish they'd be able to see themselves just one day....

I was talking to a friend about the drivers and their idiocy here in Massachusettes....He says "yeah but man there are assholes everywhere" to which I replied, "sure, but are their MASSholes everywhere?"

[heybrad]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
I'm sorry people don't constantly join in group hugs and sing god bless america while in the checkout line

So you're saying I should stop singing God Bless America in the checkout line at the top my lungs hoping that others will join in?

[revrew]

I didn't "change" on 9/11. I grieved, yes. But it didn't "change" me. I KNOW it changed the lives of those who lost loved ones or served at Ground Zero. For those people, life is forever changed and will never get back to how it was before.

But what "change" for the rest of us? Isn't that just the newsmedia's way of sounding self-important? They pushed that "we're all changed" crap down our throats so bad in 2001 that a person could almost believe something happened to the rest of us. But two months after the attack, I went to Ground Zero, interviewed people for our magazine...and even New Yorkers were left asking, "What really changed about me? How am I so different? I don't see it." Now...profoundly grieved, yes. Shocked, yes. Saddened every time we look at south Manhatten, yes. Angered, yes. More cautious, perhaps. But what, Dan Rather, actually CHANGED? Americans are still the same people they were before--largely materialistic, individualistic, spiritually confused, who still get misty whenever we think patriotic or hear of a great story of heroism or compassion. That's who we were before the attack. That's what we are after the attack.

No big event, I predict, will ever "change" America. No matter how cataclysmic (granted, something could destory the USA...but that's another meaning). American society will "change" only person by person, as individuals have individual experiences that affect their material, emotional, and spiritual selves. It's the grassroots that will effect change, be it for better, or for worse.

[Leonidas]

I wouldn't be so worried about low turnouts at these ceremonies. I was profoundly affected by 9/11 in ways that still occassionally reveal themselves to me. The wounds I feel from that day have grown scabs on my soul I simply do not want to pick at. Going to these ceremonies would only pick the scabs and bring a greater sorrow, and dare I say hatred out in me.

While it is critical we never forget 9/11, there also has to be a certain reconciliation within ourselves that allows us to press on without allowing these events to consume us from within. Maybe shrinks would say this is unhealthy, but frankly I have to supress much of this or it would eat me up and change who I am.

No, I have not completely shielded myself from my own feelings either. I did a lot of soul searching or whatever it was after 9/11 and reconciled myself to certain things I was willing to do in the aftermath of that day in my service to my nation. I have already participated somewhat in this and hope there's not much more for me to do. But should the call come I am willing.

I made peace with both myself and my God over my responsibilities in that day's aftermath and am quite comfortable with it. I personally feel neither the need nor obligation to live it over and over again.