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View Poll Results: Which team would come out of that deal better? | |||
The Steelers |
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32 | 42.67% |
The Rams |
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28 | 37.33% |
The Trout that Ben was planning to molest this coming offseason |
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15 | 20.00% |
Voters: 75. You may not vote on this poll |
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#51 | ||
College Starter
Join Date: Dec 2006
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What metric are you holding him to? QB Rating #5 in 2009, #2 in 2007, #3 in 2005, #5 in 2004 2-time SB Champion QB |
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#52 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Massachusetts
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QB rating is the world's biggest black-box stat that isn't relevant. it's like judging hitters solely based on batting average.
try something like football outsiders' DYAR rating (This gives the value of the quarterback's performance compared to replacement level, adjusted for situation and opponent and then translated into yardage.) his highest was 8th this past year.
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Get bent whoever hacked my pw and changed my signature. Last edited by DaddyTorgo : 04-14-2010 at 10:46 PM. |
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#53 | |
College Starter
Join Date: Dec 2006
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Quote:
ok... |
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#54 | |
Retired
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Fantasyland
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Quote:
Talk about cherry picking... I don't think anyone would argue that QB rating is perfect, but made up stats don't count. How about we stick to something simple, like winning. Who had more wins than Big Ben in their first 5 years in the league? Oh, that's right...no one in history. Sorry, I'll take the guy who wins games and has two Super Bowl rings over some very obscure stat any day. It's interesting that a stat like that would have also been very unkind to another all-time great - John Elway. All he did was win games too. By the way, if you like made up stats, you could always go with KWP, which has Big Ben as the 17th best QB in history. |
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#55 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Massachusetts
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Quote:
Winning is affected by the whole team...not just the QB. The offense and the defense. While in a team sport like football it's probably very difficult to remove the effect of all other plays and isolate a player's true value, winning goes in the extreme opposite direction. Hint: Big Ben is not the best QB in NFL history.
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Get bent whoever hacked my pw and changed my signature. |
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#56 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Hometown of Canada
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You can argue that Big Ben is a jackass of a person or whatever, I won't argue there. But I don't see how you can argue he isn't one of the better QBs in the league right now, and a potential top 5 year-in year-out. Especially considering the state of the OLine. He does what they need him to do, and does it pretty damn good. And he wins.
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#57 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Hometown of Canada
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#58 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: the yo'
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#59 | |
Retired
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Fantasyland
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Quote:
The metric of "I hate Ben Roethlisberger". Heard the same kind of claptrap from Elway, Bradshaw and Tarkington haters too. Those guys are all in the HoF now. |
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#60 |
Pro Rookie
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Bahston Mass
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I like Ben as a player, but calling DYAR a "made-up stat" seems a little small minded.
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There's no I in Teamocil, at least not where you'd think |
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#61 |
College Starter
Join Date: Dec 2006
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DT...out of curiosity...what 5 QBs would you rather have as your QB than Ben? I'm talking about YOU are the owner of the Steelers and EVERY team has offered their QB for him? Who would you take? I'd take: Peyton Drew Brees Tom Brady ???? ???? Rivers? Palmer? Rogers? Eli? I wouldnt take any of them over Ben. |
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#62 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Massachusetts
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Quote:
Fair question: Peyton/Brady/Brees/Schaub/Rivers/Flacco for starters. Probably Aaron Rodgers and Matt Ryan betting on their upside too, depending on the rest of the team I had.
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Get bent whoever hacked my pw and changed my signature. |
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#63 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Hometown of Canada
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#64 |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Stuck in Yinzerville, PA
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#65 | |
Retired
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Fantasyland
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Quote:
Yea, well..how did the Steelers go from 6-10 to 15-1 when Ben took over the helm as a rookie with few other changes to the lineup? You really want to try to argue that the guy with the most wins in NFL history in his first 5 years (I think it's 6 now) is somehow mediocre? You want to argue that a guy who regularly finishes in the top 5 in the statistic that the NFL goes by is somehow an average QB? Good luck with that uphill battle. Personally, I think your opinion is absurdly incorrect. You might as well be arguing that Roger Staubach sucked ass. Hint: I never said he was. But when you look at the statistic that counts - wins - he tops everyone else and I think he's 2nd in winning percentage all-time. |
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#66 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Massachusetts
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I had my 5th spot as a tie between Flacco/Rodgers/Matt Ryan/the corpse of Kurt Warner FYI. Maybe I didn't express that quite clearly enough.
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Get bent whoever hacked my pw and changed my signature. |
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#67 |
College Starter
Join Date: Dec 2006
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#68 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Massachusetts
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Quote:
they ran the fucking ball 900 times a game that year and had a strong defense. He had what...10-14 pass attempts per game that year? he's a good GAME MANAGER, but that doesn't make him a good QUARTERBACK
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Get bent whoever hacked my pw and changed my signature. Last edited by DaddyTorgo : 04-15-2010 at 02:45 PM. |
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#69 |
Retired
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Fantasyland
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#70 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Hometown of Canada
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You just hate Big Ben, no use arguing with you anymore. I respect other opinions and I'll leave it at that. I just don't think you can convince me Flacco, Schaub, and apparently a retired Warner are better QB options in a one-for-one trade.
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#71 | |
Retired
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Fantasyland
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Quote:
No, he's a great Quarterback. That's why the Steelers consistently can come back in the 4th quarter - 22 4th quarter comebacks in 6 years isn't a fluke. Game managers don't do that. Find me another "game manager" in NFL history that has that many comebacks, that many wins, Super Bowl titles and the statistics. I'll be waiting. |
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#72 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: the yo'
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DT is a hater.
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#73 |
Retired
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Fantasyland
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#74 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: North Carolina
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I almost didn't post this topic. I'm glad that I did. You never know what will get people's dander up.
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#75 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: NYC
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I'm not going to destroy DT's list since it's already being done, but the only one who is even comparable, and would be considered to round out the top 5 with Ben and the 3 initially mentioned, is Rivers. And he has only had moderate success in the playoffs (some crap, some middle, some great performances).
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#76 |
Retired
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Fantasyland
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#77 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Puyallup, WA
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Quote:
You've made it quite clear on this board that you hate any statistic created after the 1970s so I know heading into this post that this is useless to even attempt. QB rating is a terrible stat. I ask you to post the components of that stat and explain to me exactly how it's better than a stat that rates a player on a per-play basis adjusted for opponent. As for where Ben stands among other QBs, Manning, Brees, Rivers, and Brady are on another level. Ben isn't in the ballpark of those 4. After that, if we're talking about one season you could make an arguement that Ben is that 5th QB, but you can easily make a case for Rodgers and Eli Manning. If you want to stretch that into who I'd want running a team for the next 5 years I'd put Flacco and Matt Ryan over Big Ben. Those that are singing Ben's praises are conveniently forgetting to mention that he didn't attempt 300 passes his first 2 years in the league, in '06 he had 18tds, 23ints, and was sacked 47 times. In '08 he had 17tds, 15ints, and was sacked 46 times. Ben has not consistently been a good QB. I have very hard time accepting him as a great QB. Roethlisberger has played in nearly ideal conditions for a QB. He's part of one of the 2-3 best organizations in the NFL. He's consistently played on a team with defenses that have ranged from very good to great. He's had a good running game every year except for '08. He's also played with a very good receiver (2 last season) and a very good pass catching tight end. 4th quarter comebacks are all nice and everything, but Drew Bledsoe had 32 in his career. Are you going to tell me that having a good coach, good running game, good receivers, and a great defense don't play just as large of a role in 4th quarter comebacks as the QB? |
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#78 | |||||
Retired
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Fantasyland
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Quote:
I provided another alternate stat that showed Ben as the 17th best QB of all time. What, you didn't like that? If you like alternate number crunching, feel free to go out there and browse. Personally, I prefer to use the stats the NFL does...wins being one of the main ones. Quote:
When someone comes up with another "game manager" that has accomplished what Ben has, perhaps I'll be more motivated to do so. Until then, I have no interest in breaking down alternate QB rating methods. Or maybe if I find the motivation, I'll break down the one I mentioned earlier. Quote:
First, let's start with Rivers. You're right, he's on another level. One below Ben. San Diego has been known for having some of the best talent, if not THE best talent, in the league for some years now. And their stats are quite similar in terms of completion percentage, QB rating, etc. The major differences? Ben is 8-2 in the playoffs and Rivers is 3-3. Ben has a significantly better QB rating, even with that 22.6 rating in his first Super Bowl. Ben has 50% more 4th quarter comebacks. Ben has won far more games and they started in the league in the same year. Finally, Ben has two rings. Rivers? None. In a nutshell, Rivers can't hold Ben's jock. (Though if he does, he might want to spray a little disinfectant on his hands once he's done) And if you want Flacco and Ryan, then that's fine. Both are good QBs (personally, I'd rather have Flacco). But that's like asking for Mark Bulger over Troy Aikman. Personally, I'll take the winner. I'll break down those guys below. Rogers and Eli? You're off your fucking rocker and those aren't even worth responding to. Quote:
Damn skippy he grew into the role. Ben was one of the few rookie QBs ever to be successful. He was not projected to be NFL ready when he came out (small school syndrome) and suddenly is thrust into the starting lineup and did splendidly. Now this is a problem? Even guys like Peyton Manning had growing problems (look it up). He's been consistently good by virtually any standard. Until the last couple of years, he hasn't consistently been great. Now, he's fantastic. From an offensive standpoint, he's carried that team the last two years. Watch the final drive in that last Super Bowl...there's not another QB in the league who could have pulled that off. No one has that kind of play making, scrambling and improvisation in the league. No one. As for his team conditions, they've been very good, but you're overstating the matter. He's played for two coaches and over the last couple of years has an offensive line that requires him to run for his life and a very poor/inconsistent running game. Yet he's had his best statistical seasons when he's had to carry the team. His conditions are certainly no better than Rivers, yet he's succeeded and Rivers hasn't. Why is that? I can't judge Ryan or Flacco since they're still young, but both are also in optimal situations. Both are damn fine players. Yet Ryan regressed last season and Flacco, in an optimal situation with the Ravens, only won 9 games. Never mind Flacco's playoff performances (QB rating: 46.5) have been downright awful. Why is that? You'd want a guy who has 1td and 6ints in the playoffs more than Ben? I guess you like losing? Quote:
What does it say when your best comparison on 4th quarter comebacks is Bledsoe (Pro Football Reference says he has 31), who played for 14 years while Ben has 22 in just 6 years? It's funny, I heard the same exact type of complaints about another gunslinger who scrambled a lot and just found ways to win. He has a 79.9 career passer rating, yet had more wins than any other QB when he retired, had 50 comebacks and is now acknowledged as one of the all time greats. You might have heard of him because he's in the HoF now - John Elway. |
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#79 |
Retired
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Fantasyland
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Oh, in all the guys mentioned above, I like to do the trade test. If teams wanted to swap players even up (money being equal), do they pull the trigger?
Last edited by Blackadar : 04-15-2010 at 06:21 PM. |
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#80 | |
Head Coach
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Michigan
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Quote:
San Diego would tell Pittsburgh to get the fuck out in a Rivers/Ben swap. Get the fuck outta here. |
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#81 |
College Starter
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Bay Area
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Not a chance Ben + first round pick wouldn't be enough to convince SD to take that deal Last edited by Masked : 04-15-2010 at 07:00 PM. |
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#82 |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: PDX
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Purely for the record, Chilly would never trade away his ol' buddy Brett.
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#83 | |||||||||
Coordinator
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Puyallup, WA
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Quote:
Yes, winning. It's 100% on the shoulders of a QB. A great way to measure and separate quality QBs. Quote:
Rivers and Ben have quite similar meaningless stats. That's impressive. How did Ben do in the playoffs last season, btw? Prove to me that 4th quarter comebacks are on the QB over the defense, head coach, running game, ect and I'll listen. When it comes to team accomplishments I agree. Quote:
Do you seriously think winning is an individual skill? Quote:
Your bias is showing. Statistically they've been better than Ben, playing on worse teams, and Eli even has that super bowl win that automatically makes him one of the best QBs of all time. Quote:
We obviously are going to disagree on the definition of consistency. Bad in '06 and '08 while good in '07 and '09 is not consistent in any way. The final drive? Not another QB in the league that could pull it off? Let me introduce you to sample size and hyperbole. Quote:
2 coaches over the last couple of years? Wow, life has been hard on Big Ben. I don't know how he's been able to overcome such a disadvantage. He runs for his life and is in the top 3 in sacks every year because he holds onto the ball too long. Quote:
Flacco is in his 2nd year. I stated I'd take him over Roethlisberger over the next 5 years. Playoff stats? Sample size, sample size, sample size, sample size. Like losing? No, just as I'd take ARod over Jeter in clutch situation, I'll take the better player over the perception that winning is an individual skill, clutch a skill at all, and all sorts of other ideas people form to make players fit what they want them to be. Quote:
Absolutely nothing. Which is what 4th quarter comebacks as a statistic tell me. Quote:
I heard Elway wasn't a winner and couldn't win a big game until he got a coach, a defense, a running game, and receivers. Then all I heard was how Elway had suddenly become a winner. Winning = an individual skill that magically develops when everyone around you gets better. |
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#84 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA
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Okay, time to put down the crack pipe. Quote:
Fixed that one for you.
__________________
"I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis |
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#85 |
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Jan 2008
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this thread is madness
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#86 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Nov 2003
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hahaha we'd take Roethlisberger for Rivers in a heartbeat... wait you were serious?
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#87 | |
Retired
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Fantasyland
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Quote:
It's statements like these that show me it's useless to argue because you're not even attempting to argue honestly. Now all accepted NFL stats are meaningless? Wins don't matter? And then in your next paragraph, you make the claim Eli has better stats? Not only is this absolutely false but you've offered nothing to back up any of your other claims. Thanks for making it easy for me to chalk your posts up as trolling and subsequently dismiss them. |
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#88 |
Bounty Hunter
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
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One half: Sky is blue
Other half: Blackhawks
__________________
No, I am not Batman, and I will not repair your food processor. |
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#89 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Never was Blackadar's location more appropriate for his posts than in this thread.
__________________
2006 Golden Scribe Nominee 2006 Golden Scribe Winner Best Non-Sport Dynasty: May Our Reign Be Green and Golden (CK Dynasty) Rookie Writer of the Year Dynasty of the Year: May Our Reign Be Green and Golden (CK Dynasty) |
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#90 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Jul 2001
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#91 | |
Head Coach
Join Date: Jul 2001
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Ok after reading this a bit more... there's no possible way you can just discuss on the field performance when talking about who would trade for Roethlisberger. You can be a fan of his and love him on your team but if you think that the motorcycle incident, two sexual assault scandals(even though he was never charged, yes I realize that), and four concussions by the age of 27 don't destroy his trade value you just aren't being rational. There is zero doubt in my mind that Manning/Brady/Brees/Rivers/Rodgers would never be traded straight up for Roethlisberger. There is no way that Atlanta would trade for him as often as he's been in the news so often and so soon after the Vick debacle. I think the Jets and Ravens would rather keep their young promising QB's than take the chance on Big Ben.
I could just quote Cuervo really: Quote:
I'm not saying that all of those QB's are better than Big Ben, but that his value is nowhere near as high as some of ya'll are making it between his growing history of concussions and consistent mention in the news off the field. |
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#92 |
Pro Rookie
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Chicago, Ill
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Blackadar has gone insane.
__________________
Our Deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, 'Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous?' Actually, who are you not to be? |
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#93 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA
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On the bright side, at least it was a short trip for him.
__________________
"I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis |
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#94 |
Retired
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Fantasyland
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#95 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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Quote:
And the probability that there won't be football in 2011.
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To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
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#96 | |
Retired
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Fantasyland
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Quote:
Maybe I wasn't clear, but I've been talking about solely on-the-field performances. But you're right that none of those teams would touch him right now, even though the DA has said there's no reasonable belief that Ben committed a crime. There's just too much baggage. (Yes, he did say that when he said there was no probable cause, because that's what probable cause means) Last edited by Blackadar : 04-15-2010 at 09:37 PM. |
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#97 |
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Jan 2008
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as much as i dislike him for looking and acting like a waterhead, he is good at what he does. which is play qb like the big brother in a backyard football game.
you'd never hear anyone say, 'he'd be good for our system' because his system is wait until someone gets open. |
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#98 | |
Retired
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Fantasyland
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Quote:
And run for his life since his OL can't block worth a damn. ![]() |
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#99 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicagoland
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Pittsburgh's OL clearly had some issues, but Ben has admitted that he creates a good number of the sacks he takes by holding onto the ball longer than he should.
To me, Roethlisberger is a freelancer in the Favre mold. He wants to win more than he wants stats, and he'll risk a lot to gain yards, wait for a receiver to get open, or force a ball into a tough slot. There's both good and bad to this. On the good side he clearly can pull out some wins where wins should not happen. The 4th-quarter comebacks spring to mind as good examples. He's also clearly a problem for opposing defenses. Whereas someone like Rivers or Eli might just go through a progression and then toss the ball away, Roethlisberger will use his size & strength to prolong the play. It has to wear a defense out, mentally and physically. But it's also a con. He gets nailed a lot, despite his size. Sometimes a string of risky choices will not go his way and he's just dug a deeper hole. How many of those 4th-quarter comebacks, for instance, were necessary because he got his team in a position to lose? Because he's won two Super Bowls, however, we, like with Favre, tend to remember the risks that went well. This is not to say he isn't a good, or even great QB. It's just to say that he's a QB whose true value to his team is harder than normal to determine, and I would suggest, based on what I've seen, that he is, in fact, somewhat overrated. |
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