here's a shocker - Marion Jones juiced

[dawgfan]

According to multiple reports, Marion Jones has admitted to juicing:
http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/tracka...ory?id=3049333

Real shocker right?

[Young Drachma]

Yeah, not even remotely. I mean, everyone around her was juicing. Damn shame, really.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

I knew something wasn't right about him.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by M GO BLUE!!!

I knew something wasn't right about him.

Well played sir.

[Maple Leafs]

As per the established traditions of steroid controversies:

Even though her teammates, her performance, her appearance, her doctors, all circumstantial evidence, and even she herself says she was juicing, as a fan of hers I refuse to believe it because she never failed a test, dammit and therefore there's reasonable doubt and we should stop talking about it.

Other than that one time she did fail, but that test didn't count.*

* (The Carl Lewis/Lance Armstrong ammendment)

[Toddzilla]

What sucks is that she knew she was taking steroids, everybody that saw her knew she was taking steroids, and yet she never tested positive despite being a "high-probability" target.

Seriously, if the drug-testing science is this far behind the drug-masking science, they might as well give up

[PilotMan]

You know what I can't stand more than anything? Being lied to. Whether it's my kids or politicians, or athletes. I believed Rose, was always on his side, and then he admitted that had lied all along. What a chump. Vick made a fool of himself. Jones did the same, so did Tour de France guy. I am sure Bonds has been lying his ass off. They should have to pay twice the penalty just for trying to avoid paying for the choices that they made and trying to avoid the consequences.

There was a kid here was convicted of murder. He fought it the whole way. The day he is convicted, before sentencing, he confesses. Fuck him for wasing my money. Same with Jones and all the other liars out there.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

As per the established traditions of steroid controversies:

Even though her teammates, her performance, her appearance, her doctors, all circumstantial evidence, and even she herself says she was juicing, as a fan of hers I refuse to believe it because she never failed a test, dammit and therefore there's reasonable doubt and we should stop talking about it.

Other than that one time she did fail, but that test didn't count.*

* (The Carl Lewis/Lance Armstrong ammendment)

Except that now she's admitting she did it.

[14ers]

What the hell are people doing with Flaxseed Oil? This is the 3rd time I have seen an athelte blame their positive steroid test on some kind of "Tainted" Flaxseed Oil.

Right now I take a Flaxseed Oil gelcaps 3 times a day. When I was training hard I was adding 1 tsp to my Protein shakes. I have bought a lot of Flaxseed Oil in my days, both in liguid form and softgels, but I have never seen it available in a transdermal application.

Why are people rubbing Flaxseed Oil all over their bodies?

[stevew]

Saw this earlier and it made me smile. Fucking lying bitch, i hope they put her cheat ass in prison.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Except that now she's admitting she did it.

Read his post again.

[Rizon]

In other surprising news: Lance Bass is gay.

[flere-imsaho]

I know flaxseed oil is good for your cholesterol levels, but does it supposedly have an athletic use?

[Lorena]

Oh crap, I guess the chick I saw at Walgreens a couple of weeks ago was her! I didn't know she had a home out here... crazy.

[MIJB#19]

Oh my god, what's next? QuikSand admitting he lied to us from the start and actually is a computer afterall?

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by 14ers

What the hell are people doing with Flaxseed Oil? This is the 3rd time I have seen an athelte blame their positive steroid test on some kind of "Tainted" Flaxseed Oil.

Right now I take a Flaxseed Oil gelcaps 3 times a day. When I was training hard I was adding 1 tsp to my Protein shakes. I have bought a lot of Flaxseed Oil in my days, both in liguid form and softgels, but I have never seen it available in a transdermal application.

Why are people rubbing Flaxseed Oil all over their bodies?

The flaxseed oil story comes from Victor Conte at Balco. One of the "supplements" he claimed to be giving athletes was Flaxseed Oil and they used that as a cover for The Clear so the athletes could had a story if asked about it.

[Passacaglia]

My vet gave me flaxseed oil to keep my cat's fur from clumping.

[gstelmack]

Of course it's a shocker. Not that she used, but that she finally got around to admitting it.

[molson]

It's easy to write her off as just a cheater, but this also has an effect on those who stood up for her and believed her story. What must they be thinking today? There were at least 2 in this thread that were pretty adamant about her innocence last year, despite the evidence:

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...ighlight=jones

[CraigSca]

Everyone who defended her is probably hepped up on that flaxseed oil, too.

[Atocep]

For those that haven't read it, I strongly recommend Game of Shadows. Its not about Barry Bonds. Its about Balco, its clients, and how steroid users manipulate the media and fans. Its a great book. It covered Marion Jones and her first positive test along with how her and Tim Montgomery used the media against the USADA.

[JeeberD]

Hopefully she didn't pass the juice to her (latest) husband, UTEP alum and Olympic bronze medalist, Obadele Thompson...

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Everyone who defended her is probably hepped up on that flaxseed oil, too.

I plead not guilty.

[MIJB#19]

All kiddding aside, when do we get to see a copy of that letter to family and friends (makes you wonder who thought he was enough of a friend to sell the story), why didn't they have a copy of the letter and only a qoute of a quote as the letter was read to someone?

Jones is suspicious? So is Washington Post's source.

[stevew]

Funny how she still words it like she inadvertantly used it.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Read his post again.

Yeah. I guess I find it somewhat offensive that his post implies that anyone here would still try to defend the innocence of an athlete that has admitted juicing.

It was one thing when, prior to "Game of Shadows" and it's meticulous research, someone could argue about Barry Bonds that, yes, it's likely he juiced, but there aren't any positive tests, he hasn't admitted it, and there are plausible explanations for his physical growth and his inflated power numbers.

But now, after that book and the leaked testimony where Bonds admitted he took the cream and the clear (though he doesn't admit to knowing those were steroids) it's clear that he did take steroids.

Maple Leaf's post was a clear jab at those who were cautioning that there was some level of reasonable doubt about Bonds' steroid use prior to that book and leaked testimony, but takes the offensive step of implying that even with the athlete admitting use, people here would still defend the athlete and claim they weren't juicing.

[molson]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Maple Leaf's post was a clear jab at those who were cautioning that there was some level of reasonable doubt about Bonds' steroid use prior to that book and leaked testimony, but takes the offensive step of implying that even with the athlete admitting use, people here would still defend the athlete and claim they weren't juicing.

He's obviously making a point, but even litterally, it's not THAT far off from reality. Many defended Bonds and Jones until their admissions, despite overwhelming evidence. But is an admission any more damming that the evidence we already had?

It's ridiculous that people will defend anything short of an admission or a positive test. Because admissions will only happen if they have something to gain (or a lot to lose), and athletes simply aren't tested effectively, because the science of cheating will ALWAYS be way ahead of the science of catching cheaters.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by molson

He's obviously making a point, but even litterally, it's not THAT far off from reality. Many defended Bonds and Jones until their admissions, despite overwhelming evidence. But is an admission any more damming that the evidence we already had?

Depending on where in the various timelines of these stories you're talking about, yes. Before "Game of Shadows" and the leaked Balco testimony of Bonds, there were plausible explanations for the various circumstantial evidence presented against him.

I personally never said I think he was clean - I always maintained I thought it was likely he used. I simply objected the idea that anyone who wasn't 100% convinced at that time that Bonds was a juicer was an idiot/naive/hopeless Bonds defender.

Once he admitted he used (via the leaked testimony) and that book came out with meticulous research detailing the case against Bonds, I was convinced. If others were 100% before this point, that's fine - just don't tell me I'm stupid for not being 100% convinced before this point, because there were plausible explanations for all of the circumstantial evidence presented against him. Yes, it was an awful lot of circumstantial evidence, and that's why I thought it was likely he had used, but I was willing to give him some benefit of the doubt until more damning evidence was presented.

It's ridiculous that people will defend anything short of an admission or a positive test. Because admissions will only happen if they have something to gain (or a lot to lose), and athletes simply aren't tested effectively, because the science of cheating will ALWAYS be way ahead of the science of catching cheaters.

Read this again and tell me how this makes sense? Are you implying that all athletes are users? Because that's how this paragraph reads. If not, what is the line where you feel it's reasonable to accuse someone with 100% certainty of cheating? How many rumors, and from whom? How much, and what kind of circumstantial evidence?

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Maple Leaf's post was a clear jab at those who were cautioning that there was some level of reasonable doubt about Bonds' steroid use prior to that book and leaked testimony, but takes the offensive step of implying that even with the athlete admitting use, people here would still defend the athlete and claim they weren't juicing.

Bonds has admitted his steroid use. Not in public yet, but under oath. He claims he didn't take it knowingly, but he admits he took it. And plenty of people still defend him. I'm not sure what I said was inaccurate, let along offensive.

[molson]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Read this again and tell me how this makes sense? Are you implying that all athletes are users? Because that's how this paragraph reads. If not, what is the line where you feel it's reasonable to accuse someone with 100% certainty of cheating? How many rumors, and from whom? How much, and what kind of circumstantial evidence?

There's other ways to tell - visual evidence, associations with known distributors, etc.

Bottom line - athletes don't deserve the benefit of the doubt. They've fought against drug testing in every sport, and even where it does exist, it's a total joke.

I certainly believe that the strong majority of track & field athletes are using some type of banned substance. It's hugely prevelent in other sports as well. If sports leagues and organizations aren't going to meaningfully police it, that doesn't require me to assume everyone's clean. I can assume the oppossitte, and be right most of the time.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Bonds has admitted his steroid use. Not in public yet, but under oath. He claims he didn't take it knowingly, but he admits he took it. And plenty of people still defend him. I'm not sure what I said was inaccurate, let along offensive.

Who has continued to claim that Bonds didn't juice after "Game of Shadows" came out and the Balco testimony was leaked?

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by molson

There's other ways to tell - visual evidence, associations with known distributors, etc.

Check the list of baseball players that have tested positive, and then tell me you could tell ahead of time based off of "visual evidence" that they were likely users.

Yeah, there are any number of bits of circumstantial evidence that can be applied to suspected juicers, but the question is, how much of that needs to be in place for you to feel, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that they are juicers?

Bottom line - athletes don't deserve the benefit of the doubt. They've fought against drug testing in every sport, and even where it does exist, it's a total joke.

I agree - again, look at the list of baseball players who've failed tests. But you understand that there is a major fundamental difference between saying no player is beyond suspicion of juicing and saying all players should be considered, beyond a shadow of a doubt, to be juicing - right?

I certainly believe that the strong majority of track & field athletes are using some type of banned substance. It's hugely prevelent in other sports as well. If sports leagues and organizations aren't going to meaningfully police it, that doesn't require me to assume everyone's clean. I can assume the oppossitte, and be right most of the time.

I agree for the most part - I think that we've reached a point where we can't assume everyone is clean. But it's a huge leap from there to assume, with 100% confidence, that nobody is clean.

[korme]

*many years too late*

nothing is pure in sports anymore

[larrymcg421]

"So what? I doubt it really had that much of an effect. Look at all those other people that cheated and didn't run nearly as fast as her."

"What about the athletes that have had eye surgery or wear glasses? Should we ban them, too?"

"I heard Jesse Owens took greenies."

"This is nothing but a witch hunt. Let me know when she actually fails a test."

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

"So what? I doubt it really had that much of an effect. Look at all those other people that cheated and didn't run nearly as fast as her."

"What about the athletes that have had eye surgery or wear glasses? Should we ban them, too?"

"I heard Jesse Owens took greenies."

"This is nothing but a witch hunt. Let me know when she actually fails a test."

And don't forget "it was a private letter to her family. Even if evidence is completely damning, we can choose to ignore it as long as it wasn't supposed to have been made public".

[molson]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Check the list of baseball players that have tested positive, and then tell me you could tell ahead of time based off of "visual evidence" that they were likely users.

Yeah, there are any number of bits of circumstantial evidence that can be applied to suspected juicers, but the question is, how much of that needs to be in place for you to feel, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that they are juicers?

I don't need to know "beyond a shadow of a doubt" to have an opinion. Of those suspended, I agree, I wouldn't have picked any of them out, but that kind of goes to my broader point. Only the fringe, under-the-radar guys are caught. I don't think that's because they're the only ones using, I think it's because they don't have the connections and resource of high-tech Balco-type outfits that can easily conceal detection

Originally Posted by dawgfan

I agree for the most part - I think that we've reached a point where we can't assume everyone is clean. But it's a huge leap from there to assume, with 100% confidence, that nobody is clean.

In track and field, I assume that 100% of the athletes are cheating at the elite level. I'm not sure beyond "a shadow of a doubt", that's just my opinion.

Basically, my only point was to express an annoyance with defenses people make of certain athletes on the grounds that "they've never tested dirty", "they're so talented they don't need to cheat", or worse of all "you can't prove that beyond a reasonable doubt". I think that overall, it's no longer our responsibility to "prove" anything - I put the burden of doubt purely on the players and the sports leagues. Otherwise, I'll have my own opinions. (And I don't think every baseball player is juicing).

[dawgfan]

As I've already mentioned, I have no problem if people assume athletes are juicing without those athletes having tested positive or admitting to such use.

I just don't want to be mocked if someone says "I think it's obvious that Roger Clemens [as an example] is a juicer" and I say "I suspect you're probably right, but I don't think there's enough evidence to say that with any certainty".

That's my only point.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Thread is 2 days old, and no parody thread using Marion Jones and shocker?

[MIJB#19]

I'm shocked this thread didn't get an 'update' post with news on Jones' "I'm guilty" , opposed to the hear-say we were discussing so far.

[stevew]

Irony?

Marion Jones joined the Tulsa Shock today, of the WNBA.

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

My vet gave me flaxseed oil to keep my cat's fur from clumping.

Does taking it motivate you to brush your cat regularly?