Utah state lawmakers discuss eliminating the 12th grade

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Yep, and in my school some people wore parachute pants back in the day

Sorry, couldn't resist.

What you're describing does still exist, especially in some subjects (although it varies from system to system). The aforementioned Wellesley HS, which I looked up after it was mentioned in the thread, actually still does that style completely best I could tell from trying to skim through their 120ish page curriculum guide.

edit to add: One of the new metrics for measuring school performance, new at least in that I've only started seeing it used in the mainstream media in the past couple of years, is the percentage of the enrollment taking AP classes. Meaning that we'll see even more students pushed into those regardless of what would serve them best.

lol - you could have just asked me. i went there...as did all my siblings...and my brother is a freshman there right now

[Young Drachma]

Well maybe we could just do this everyplace:

Detroit High Schools Teach How To Work at Walmart - Equalize This - GOOD

Four Detroit public high schools have decided classroom time should be used to train 60 students to work at Walmart. A new partnership gives participants 11 weeks of job-readiness training during the day and a Walmart job after school. Students earn 10 credits toward graduation…

Advocates say with Detroit’s unofficial unemployment rate nearing 50%, jobs at Walmart are a golden opportunity. Sean Vann, principal of the Frederick Douglass Academy for Young Men, has 30 students in the program. He told the Detroit Free Press he’s enthusiastic because along with earning money, since the schools are in the suburbs, the students will be around people from different cultures.

Donna Stern, a representative of the Coalition to Defend Affirmative Action, Integration & Immigrant Rights And Fight for Equality By Any Means Necessary (BAMN) is outraged. “They’re going to train students to be subservient workers. This is not why parents send them to school.”

Unclear is whether Walmart will pay the minimum wage of $7.25 or the $4.25 per hour the Department of Labor allows for the first 90 days of employment of a minor. Paying the latter wage could be perceived as a money saver for Walmart, already viewed by many as the epitome of capitalism-gone-wild and dead-end employment.

I don't know who that representative is, but her organization has a name straight out of The Onion.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by rowech

It's because most of the other countries don't waste their resources on students who are not college bound type students. They make those decisions on kids very early and don't waste the time/money if they don't fit that mold.

Doesn't Germany route you after some many grades to certain schools?

Also, do other countries have year-round schooling and better parental involvement?

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Well maybe we could just do this everyplace:

Detroit High Schools Teach How To Work at Walmart - Equalize This - GOOD



I don't know who that representative is, but her organization has a name straight out of The Onion.

BAMN was legendary around the U of M campus. We got a lot of kicks out of making fun of them when I went there.

[Wolfpack]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Well maybe we could just do this everyplace:

Detroit High Schools Teach How To Work at Walmart - Equalize This - GOOD

I don't know who that representative is, but her organization has a name straight out of The Onion.

Ah, BAMN. Good ol' BAMN. Trust me, it's not made up and it is as loopy as it sounds. Pretty much a standard university semi-militant ultra-left organization that most liberals of good character run screaming from because they don't want to be tarred by association. If anything was ever controversial at the University of Michigan, nine times out of ten, they were involved in it, either in causing it or in protesting it.

Edit to add: the name was actually shorter a few years ago. It was just defending Affirmative Action at one point, mainly as an outgrowth of the statewide ballot initiative that removed considerations of race in admissions policies for undergraduates at Michigan.

[Marc Vaughan]

I've travelled around a fair bit of the globe and to be honest there are huge variances in the education systems - the age kids start at and when they wrap up, but by and large as far as I can tell humans are humans and so long as the system itself isn't amazingly substandard they all come out much of a muchness ....

In fact I'd argue that the biggest effect on a childs education isn't their school - its their home environment and whether learning is encouraged there or not.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

I've travelled around a fair bit of the globe and to be honest there are huge variances in the education systems - the age kids start at and when they wrap up, but by and large as far as I can tell humans are humans and so long as the system itself isn't amazingly substandard they all come out much of a muchness ....

In fact I'd argue that the biggest effect on a childs education isn't their school - its their home environment and whether learning is encouraged there or not.

I agree wholeheartedly. I love you, Marc.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Wolfpack

Ah, BAMN. Good ol' BAMN. Trust me, it's not made up and it is as loopy as it sounds. Pretty much a standard university semi-militant ultra-left organization that most liberals of good character run screaming from because they don't want to be tarred by association. If anything was ever controversial at the University of Michigan, nine times out of ten, they were involved in it, either in causing it or in protesting it.

Edit to add: the name was actually shorter a few years ago. It was just defending Affirmative Action at one point, mainly as an outgrowth of the statewide ballot initiative that removed considerations of race in admissions policies for undergraduates at Michigan.

Aah, this makes sense now.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

in your opinion

DT, what do you call college level courses being given for free to high school students?

I'm not necessarily against the program(s) myself, but its pretty much precisely what Jon said, its college level classwork given for free to students in high school.

Those students aren't paying the tuition/books/fees for those classes that they would be at a college, your state is and by proxy every taxpayer is. Is it fair to those taxpayers to be flipping the bill for your kid to take college level classes? Without any promise or guarentee that said child will ever set foot in a college? Let alone graduate?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by RendeR

DT, what do you call college level courses being given for free to high school students?

I'm not necessarily against the program(s) myself, but its pretty much precisely what Jon said, its college level classwork given for free to students in high school.

Those students aren't paying the tuition/books/fees for those classes that they would be at a college, your state is and by proxy every taxpayer is. Is it fair to those taxpayers to be flipping the bill for your kid to take college level classes? Without any promise or guarentee that said child will ever set foot in a college? Let alone graduate?

again - in my school system (for example) there were 3 levels

1 - Honors/AP
2 - Standard
3 - Remedial

So you're promoting getting rid of the top-level (which honestly didn't require any new textbooks or anything like that...just extra coursework), thus penalizing the smarter kids.

I see...penalize those who are intelligent...dumb down the US population...great fucking plan!

Wouldn't a better plan be to have the schools set stricter restrictions on who can take AP classes - IF AND ONLY IF those AP classes cost the school district extra money. Or have the AP students hold bake sales/car washes/etc. to pay for them?

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Community colleges do a great job of providing an educational resource to non-traditional students in a lot of communities. While more and more are focusing on trying to recruit traditional age students for various reasons, their main audience is still largely the non-traditional age student who without it's programs would never realistically have an opportunity to pursue a post-secondary education.

So I don't think phasing those programs out ought to be part of any solution.

They may well be part of the solution. My ire is focused on Florida's system, or at least the way it was in the late 80s / early 90s, where it was a remedial program for kids who wanted to go to college but screwed up in high school, and this directly led to people not being allowed to take classes in their major until they were a junior in college so the juco kids weren't too far behind when they finally caught up.

They need to provide a REPLACEMENT for college, not a PREP for college.

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by RendeR

I'm not necessarily against the program(s) myself, but its pretty much precisely what Jon said, its college level classwork given for free to students in high school.

If I asked my AP students why they took it, every single one of them would say because it looks good to colleges. This is a school where from day one they are grilled from their parents and fellow students: "Berkeley or Bust". I think the AP is used by so many colleges precisely because it is offered to most students.

[Young Drachma]

If the worst thing we can do is give high achieving students of limited means a chance to take high school classes that -- depending on their AP score -- can be used for college credit, then I'm all for it.

AP classes are not college classes. They're high school classes. If a kid passes the AP test, they get AP credit for it. For most schools, that's a 4 or a 5 and most states don't subsidize the test, though a few do.

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by rowech

I've constantly said that 11th and 12th grade need to be reformed. Mandatory education up through 10th grade I am fine with. At that point, we should evaluate students for wehther they really need to continue in that kind of academic track. Instead 11th and 12th should be purely for college bound students.

Wasting resources is a hard way to say it but in many cases, it's true. There are too many students, not going to college, who are wasting time in a traditional college prep setting for two years. We would much better served getting them to trade schools or into the workforce.

Comprehensive high school is already more or less mandatory until 10th grade. Once you are 16 you can take the GED, go to continuation school, or any number of other "alternative education" programs. My district (san jose) alone has 11 alternatives for 11th and 12th graders.

I think all students can benefit from the 11th and 12th grade. If not, the curriculum needs to change. It can and should be both college and adult prep. For example, i teach my students about credit cards, checking accounts etc. That's good info for all. In fact sending out ignorant 16 year olds will cost communities more.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And yet somehow the average for a "four year degree" is now somewhere in the 5 to 5.5 year range, go figure.

I would imagine this number is skewed by the millions of "standard" students who go to underfunded state institutions and simply can't take classes fast enough to graduate in 4 years.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

again - in my school system (for example) there were 3 levels

1 - Honors/AP
2 - Standard
3 - Remedial

Interesting.

I say that because in the best high schools (okay, granted, there aren't that many of those around Georgia but still) there isn't much remedial left. AP is the norm, Honors is the elite end & what my age group (and yours I guess) would call normal is the bottom end. And that;s true in both the best private & best public schools.

[DaddyTorgo]

Well "remedial" is probably a harsh word...i'm not sure what they technically call it...but that was what us Level 1 kids who took all Level 1's referred to it as.

I don't think AP should be the "norm" in every school district, don't get me wrong. Now given, if you have a school full of smart smart kids then AP may end up being the norm (as it somewhat is in Wellesley for example), but I don't think AP or Honors needs to be the norm. Just saying that it should be an option.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Well "remedial" is probably a harsh word...i'm not sure what they technically call it...but that was what us Level 1 kids who took all Level 1's referred to it as.

I knew what you meant, even though trying to label them otherwise has been a bit of an art in itself (my son's 6th grade math groups next year are labeled something like AC, A, and AB but that's in descending order from highest to lowest)

[Young Drachma]

Charter School May Replace Trades at Alfred E. Smith High - NYTimes.com

[ISiddiqui]

::shrug::

Allow me to take DT's side. When I was in high school (94-98), NO ONE in my AP classes was taking those classes for college credit. They were either taking them because they were more challenging and interesting courses, or because it would look better on their transcripts to get into higher level colleges.

This was at a public high school in NJ, FWIW.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

::shrug::

Allow me to take DT's side. When I was in high school (94-98), NO ONE in my AP classes was taking those classes for college credit. They were either taking them because they were more challenging and interesting courses, or because it would look better on their transcripts to get into higher level colleges.

This was at a public high school in NJ, FWIW.

Exactly.

[wade moore]

Those saying you weren't taking AP classes for college credit are naive imo. At least in SOME part, that's exactly what you were doing.

I'm not sure how anyone can argue with Jon here. AP Classes are the state paying for college credit.

Now, you can argue about whether they SHOULD. That makes a ton of sense. But to argue that that's not what it is just looks unintelligent imo.

[rowech]

There are a couple of kids who might take an AP class if college credit was not involved. We have around 60-70 kids take AP Calculus (out of 300 seniors usually) That number would be half without the college credit.

I'll go so far to say we wouldn't even get enough kids to sign up for pre-calc if we didn't weight the GPAs to encourage students to take it.

[PurdueBrad]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Those saying you weren't taking AP classes for college credit are naive imo. At least in SOME part, that's exactly what you were doing.

I'm not sure how anyone can argue with Jon here. AP Classes are the state paying for college credit.

Now, you can argue about whether they SHOULD. That makes a ton of sense. But to argue that that's not what it is just looks unintelligent imo.

This isn't true where I teach. Students have to pay to take the AP test for their chosen course in order to earn college credit. If they choose not to take the test (and a decent number do), there is no college credit for the class, just a harder but more enriching classroom experience for high school credit. And to be clear, at least here, students have to pay for the test themselves.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by PurdueBrad

This isn't true where I teach. Students have to pay to take the AP test for their chosen course in order to earn college credit. If they choose not to take the test (and a decent number do), there is no college credit for the class, just a harder but more enriching classroom experience for high school credit. And to be clear, at least here, students have to pay for the test themselves.

The test is like... $150ish?

Big whoop...

How many take the class without taking the test? We had the same thing in High School - EVERYONE took the test.

[Logan]

Yeah the high school I went to (Marlboro HS in Jersey) is a pretty solid public school, pretty much everyone goes on to a 4-year college, we put a decent amount in the Ivys each year and then a big pack go to the larger local schools: Rutgers, Penn State, Maryland, Syracuse, etc.

If I could estimate, I'd say about 4 out of 5 in my school took it solely for the college credit.

[cuervo72]

When I was in HS, they gave weight to Honors classes, and further weight to AP classes. So for those looking to climb the GPA ladder, there was plenty of incentive to take them.

And students paid for the tests themselves. So I don't really get what the big expenditure is for schools; those students have to be taking something right, with or without an AP label?

Re: test pricing, from Wiki:

The College Board, a non-profit organization[4] based in New York City, has run the AP program since 1955.[5] From 1965 to 1989, Harlan Hanson was the director of the Advanced Placement Program.[6] It develops and maintains guidelines for the teaching of higher level courses in various subject areas. In addition, it supports teachers of AP courses, and supports universities.[7] These activities are funded through fees charged to students taking AP Exams.

In 2006, over one million students took over two million Advanced Placement examinations.[8] Many high schools in the United States offer AP courses[9], though the College Board allows any student to take any examination, regardless of participation in its respective course.[10] Therefore, home-schooled students and students from schools that do not offer AP courses have an equal opportunity to take the examination.

As of the 2009 testing season, exams cost $86 each,[11] though the cost may be subsidized by local or state programs. Financial aid is available for students who qualify for it; the exam reduction is $22 per exam from College Board plus an additional $8 rebate per fee-reduced exam from the school. There may be further reductions depending on the state. Out of the $86, $8 goes directly to the school to pay for the administration of the test, which some schools will reduce to lower the cost to the student.

On April 3, 2008, the College Board announced that four AP courses - French Literature, Latin Literature, Computer Science AB, and Italian Language and Culture - will be discontinued after the 2008-2009 school year due to lack of funding

I had thought that was the case too - you could take the test even if you didn't take the AP class.

I also don't think it's guaranteed that the AP credit will always be granted. When I was accepted to JHU, they didn't accept credit for AP American History (or at least not as a substitute for general humanities credits I needed for Engineering). I decided not to take the test (caused a bit of a rift between my teacher and I).

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

When I was in HS, they gave weight to Honors classes, and further weight to AP classes. So for those looking to climb the GPA ladder, there was plenty of incentive to take them.

And students paid for the tests themselves. So I don't really get what the big expenditure is for schools; those students have to be taking something right, with or without an AP label?

Re: test pricing, from Wiki:



I had thought that was the case too - you could take the test even if you didn't take the AP class.

I also don't think it's guaranteed that the AP credit will always be granted. When I was accepted to JHU, they didn't accept credit for AP American History (or at least not as a substitute for general humanities credits I needed for Engineering). I decided not to take the test (caused a bit of a rift between my teacher and I).

True on both counts. I took European History, and English AP tests, without taking the class. Also, different colleges give different amounts of credit based on what score you get.

[chesapeake]

Originally Posted by wade moore

AP Classes are the state paying for college credit.

Hmm...just like any state college or university? I'll bet you that a state gets a better deal on AP courses per credit than it does at Georgia or GA Tech, even if the cost of the latter is often split with the student. Something of an apples to oranges comparison, I understand, but it seems a little silly to me to be critical of the state paying for kids to get college credit in high school when it does the same wherever college credit is granted. Even private colleges get a big subsidy from federal student aid programs and similar state-level programs.

[SportsDino]

Ya, of course AP classes are the state subsidizing some form of college credit (if applicable for your school)... but if you can't see how that is a good thing and fiscally responsible in the era of overpriced colleges... you need to remove your head from your ass.

If someone doesn't take an AP test they probably knew it wouldn't apply to their particular college plan they wanted, or they knew they would fail the test (with some fraction having other circumstances in the way like sickness/etc.).

You only get the AP credit if you actually score on the test anyway, so isn't that 'results-based' education the conservatives are actually looking for? AP applies to public and private schools as well... if i was paying for a private school for my kid I'd insist it help them pass several tests that could skip a year of college. The only reason someone would object state dollars going to AP instead of 'normal 12th grade' is because they have an agenda against the public schools in general and want to see them fail.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by PurdueBrad

This isn't true where I teach. Students have to pay to take the AP test for their chosen course in order to earn college credit. If they choose not to take the test (and a decent number do), there is no college credit for the class, just a harder but more enriching classroom experience for high school credit. And to be clear, at least here, students have to pay for the test themselves.

exactly. that's the case here as well. and there's no special additional textbooks that the school has to buy or anything either. just more rigerous coursework.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by wade moore

The test is like... $150ish?

Big whoop...

How many take the class without taking the test? We had the same thing in High School - EVERYONE took the test.

that's not the point though - the point is that the state isn't paying for you to get college credit...you are paying for that opportunity yourself when you take the test (which frankly you can do with or without taking the class). the class is simply there for the teachers to teach (and if it wasn't AP-whatever they were teaching they'd be teaching something else to those kids anyways)

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

that's not the point though - the point is that the state isn't paying for you to get college credit...you are paying for that opportunity yourself when you take the test (which frankly you can do with or without taking the class). the class is simply there for the teachers to teach (and if it wasn't AP-whatever they were teaching they'd be teaching something else to those kids anyways)

Really? You think there's no extra cost to having AP classes?

You think that whomever administers AP tests (don't feel like looking up the company) doesn't charge for the test prep materials the schools get? You don't think there's special training for the teachers? You don't think there are any additional text books (when I was in school, many AP classes used a separate text book from the regular classes).

There are plenty of additional costs.

Now - to be clear - I think it's an appropriate cost for the state to take on. But, it is the state paying for college credit - there's really no way around it.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Really? You think there's no extra cost to having AP classes?

You think that whomever administers AP tests (don't feel like looking up the company) doesn't charge for the test prep materials the schools get? You don't think there's special training for the teachers? You don't think there are any additional text books (when I was in school, many AP classes used a separate text book from the regular classes).

There are plenty of additional costs.

Now - to be clear - I think it's an appropriate cost for the state to take on. But, it is the state paying for college credit - there's really no way around it.

First off, it didn't add much to the cost of the class when I took them in high school (admittedly 25 years ago). Training for the teachers was provided by the AP folks who make money off the tests, and one way or another a textbook was getting purchased, even if it was different.

Second, how is this any different that a subsidized public university? The state is paying for college credit at SOME level, and I'll bet (but can't confirm) that it's cheaper at the high school level than the college level.

[PurdueBrad]

Originally Posted by wade moore

The test is like... $150ish?

Big whoop...

How many take the class without taking the test? We had the same thing in High School - EVERYONE took the test.

Honestly, about 35-40% of our kids do not choose to take the test. In fact, in English last year, we had 88% 4's or 5's but 26 of 56 didn't take the test I believe.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Really? You think there's no extra cost to having AP classes?

You think that whomever administers AP tests (don't feel like looking up the company) doesn't charge for the test prep materials the schools get? You don't think there's special training for the teachers? You don't think there are any additional text books (when I was in school, many AP classes used a separate text book from the regular classes).

There are plenty of additional costs.

Now - to be clear - I think it's an appropriate cost for the state to take on. But, it is the state paying for college credit - there's really no way around it.

Actually...we didn't have any test prep materials (aside from stuff our teacher bought and xeroxed that was a couple years old). We didn't have any additional text books (additional photocopied readings maybe, and covering more of the standard textbook yes).

So yes...at least in my particular instance I think you're wrong.

But then again there's no "one size fits all" answer to how these things are handled, and i think that's the lesson here.