1st and Ten Football - Tabletop game - Has anyone played it?

[Crim]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

(I have their football and roller derby games)

I threw up in my mouth a little bit at this. Am i just uninformed and closed-minded, or does anyone else find this amusing?

[SirFozzie]

You're uninformed and closed-minded.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Crim

I threw up in my mouth a little bit at this. Am i just uninformed and closed-minded, or does anyone else find this amusing?

Probably a bit close-minded. It's actually one of the best game designs & game play experiences I've seen in a long time. Much like some of the pro wrestling designs, it works from the premise that roller derby wasn't fixed/rigged/scripted, but was instead a legitimate sport. And yet somehow it manages to feel as though you're watching roller derby. It's uncanny at times how well it manages to capture the essence of the (kayfabe) experience.

If that blows your mind, I probably shouldn't mention another of the best tabletop games I've seen over the past decade or so. It's based on the game seen in the movie Rollerball.

[SirFozzie]

Let me expand: Roller Derby IS a niche sport now, agreed, but it's something a LOT of people grew up watching from generation to generation, (from the 50's San Francisco Bay Bombers, through the 80 and 90's LA T-Birds, remember ROLLERGAMES?)

So it's a natural target for a historical game.

[Crim]

hmmm, I do remember watching (and enjoying) it when i was very young, but I'd honestly never heard of or considered a board game based on it until reading this thread.

[JonInMiddleGA]

And after too long away, nearly five years, developer Keith Avallone has brought PLAAY Games back. I don't believe he'll mind me reposting his official comments from a couple of the tabletop forums here.

I've brought back four of the original titles; ROLLER RUMBLE Roller Derby Game, FACE TO THE MAT Pro Wrestling Game, CRASH and SCRAMBLE Pro Indoor Lacrosse Game, and BOWL-O-RAMA Championship Bowling Game.

I've also added a brand NEW game, DEMO DERBY SMASH-DOWN Demolition Derby Game! It's a game I was working on just before taking a sabbatical almost five years ago. Check out the details, Welcome to PLAAY.com!! And, I'm hoping to introduce at least one more new PLAAY game later this year.

SECOND SEASON Pro Football Game will continue to be offered by Pete Ventura at REPLAY Games. I am hoping to work with Pete to bring back some of the "lost" seasons that REPLAY hasn't been able to carry. Most people are aware of my fondness for "alterna-leagues," so I'll be looking forward to making available once again the 1974 WFL and 2001 XFL seasons, as well as perhaps offering the fictional "Football America" individual card sets. I don't have a timetable for this yet, but I'll post the latest on the website.

The PLAAY Games forum is also active again. All the originally-posted material dating back to 2001 is still archived, and it's good to see new posting going on again! Delphiforums.com/plaaygames.

Finally, if you visit PLAAY.com, please let me know of any broken or dead links you might run accross. I'm afraid my GAME design skills are a lot better than my WEB design skills!

Many thanks!

Keith Avallone
PLAAY.com

For my own two cents worth, Keith always came across to me as one of the good guys in the tabletop world. He's got an almost uncanny knack of capturing the feel of whatever niche he tries to emulate on the tabletop while keeping things fairly simple & user friendly. The return marks the first chance for some folks to get a copy of most of his games since they were basically out of print while he was away (with the exception of the football game). Since making his return plans known 2-3 weeks ago he's mentioned working on updating the card sets for wrestling and I see that the new MLL set is already done. And I can speak from experience when I say that, at least in the case of Roller Rumble & Face to the Mat, that making your own sets is a relatively easy & fun thing to do.

[CraigSca]

Just thought I'd chime in with a plug for Inside Sports Games - insidesportsgames.org.

Their libraries of past seasons aren't as large as some of the other companies because they're relatively new, but since their games are new and don't rely on algorithms from 20+ years ago, I find them to be more realistic in their play. For instance, their baseball game embraces FIPS and is not a 50/50 engine. Therefore, you get to see guys like Mariano Rivera dominate as they do in real life (rather than 50% of the time - ha)

He has football, baseball, hockey, basketball and tennis (believe it or not). Also, the basketball and hockey games have computer versions that play as they do on the tabletop (so it's not a typical "automated" game like most computer versions - you still "play" the game as you do on the table, the PC version just takes care of a lot of the look-ups and statistical housekeeping).

Anyway - if you're interested in an accurate replay sim with a different engine, give it a shot.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And after too long away, nearly five years, developer Keith Avallone has brought PLAAY Games back. I don't believe he'll mind me reposting his official comments from a couple of the tabletop forums here.


For my own two cents worth, Keith always came across to me as one of the good guys in the tabletop world. He's got an almost uncanny knack of capturing the feel of whatever niche he tries to emulate on the tabletop while keeping things fairly simple & user friendly. The return marks the first chance for some folks to get a copy of most of his games since they were basically out of print while he was away (with the exception of the football game). Since making his return plans known 2-3 weeks ago he's mentioned working on updating the card sets for wrestling and I see that the new MLL set is already done. And I can speak from experience when I say that, at least in the case of Roller Rumble & Face to the Mat, that making your own sets is a relatively easy & fun thing to do.

And I would give a plug for Season Season Football. It is alot of fun and very realistic. Plus, there are a bunch of free seasons and you can make you own very easily. I know someone did the entire 120 team 2008 NCAA teams for freee and 5-6 free seasons. The game and more seasons can be bought at Replaysports.com. IB is also good but I prefer Second Season.

[Calis]

What's the best option for basketball? I'm getting the itch for a historical basketball tabletop. I've never played anything apart from Strat baseball.

I see Above the Rim mentioned earlier? I've bee browsing at Replay Basketball and that looks nice if a little pricey. The 85-86 and 92-93 seasons are luring me in though.

What's a good one?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Calis

What's the best option for basketball? I'm getting the itch for a historical basketball tabletop. I've never played anything apart from Strat baseball.

I see Above the Rim mentioned earlier? I've bee browsing at Replay Basketball and that looks nice if a little pricey. The 85-86 and 92-93 seasons are luring me in though.

What's a good one?

AtR is great stuff and the price is obviously right. Replay's games are very well thought of as well (albeit not cheap) and you probably couldn't go wrong with either.

I'd suggest giving the Excel version of AtR a try to see if it scratches your itch in the basketball niche. If it does, then you're happy on the cheap. If it doesn't then Replay would be a good choice IMO.

[WVUFAN]

Is Face to the Mat worthwhile? Is it a booking game, or a sim-style game?

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Calis

What's the best option for basketball? I'm getting the itch for a historical basketball tabletop. I've never played anything apart from Strat baseball.

I see Above the Rim mentioned earlier? I've bee browsing at Replay Basketball and that looks nice if a little pricey. The 85-86 and 92-93 seasons are luring me in though.

What's a good one?

Alot of people swear by Replay Basketball but I tried it and found it somewhat complicated at least for me. I have been playing TMG by tom Mink which has players cards and a software program that shows the stats and tracks time and flips FACS on the screen and you just have to click certain inputs from the cards. It is great combination of speed 1 hour games and user interactiveness which most pc games lack.Plus he has ALL NBA and even ABA seasons from the last 60 years available.

check it out here:
Home

check it out

[Calis]

Thanks for the info on the basketball games. I think I will give Above the Rim a shot tonight because there is nothing to lose, and if it is well polished and playable I might as well. It looks like the newest Ultimate version of it is completely played on PC? I'd read some comments that you'd need to print out the cards and use a combo. My printer is junk and that doesn't interest me, so hopefully it can be completely Excel-based.

That game you mentioned looks great Galaril. I might like having the computer doing some legwork and still maintaining a tabletop feel. Looks cheaper than Replay at least initially as well, unless I'm missing a base package you'd have to purchase. That's pretty nice having every season as well, do you find it to be pretty good on a realism front?

Something where I could be free to do some what ifs with moving players to different teams and such would interest me as well, but I'm not sure if most of these games have team ratings based off the specific structure. It looks like Replay does.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Calis

Thanks for the info on the basketball games. I think I will give Above the Rim a shot tonight because there is nothing to lose, and if it is well polished and playable I might as well. It looks like the newest Ultimate version of it is completely played on PC? I'd read some comments that you'd need to print out the cards and use a combo. My printer is junk and that doesn't interest me, so hopefully it can be completely Excel-based.

Unless something has changed dramatically in the months that I've pretty much been away from the tabletop/tabletop forums, yes, you can play it strictly Excel. I've played a ton of Wayne's college games (only real option out their for women's hoops afaik) and have never printed a single card.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

Is Face to the Mat worthwhile? Is it a booking game, or a sim-style game?

Sim Style with elements of Booking.. (in that you run a fed)

Here's an example of play:

http://plaay.com/PLAAY%20PDFs/playsampleFTTM.pdf

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by Galaril

Alot of people swear by Replay Basketball but I tried it and found it somewhat complicated at least for me. I have been playing TMG by tom Mink which has players cards and a software program that shows the stats and tracks time and flips FACS on the screen and you just have to click certain inputs from the cards. It is great combination of speed 1 hour games and user interactiveness which most pc games lack.Plus he has ALL NBA and even ABA seasons from the last 60 years available.

check it out here:
Home

check it out

I have the Inside Sports "Inside the Paint" basketball game. As I said before it's played just like on the tabletop, but it keeps track of the stats and the substitutions for you. One of the interesting things about Inside the Paint is how it replicates momentum in basketball. You can see particular teams start to accrue momentum points that can really shift the results of the game - teams will start to go on mini-runs. However, just like in real basketball, the opposing coach can call a time out and reset the momentum factor. Just a little extra bit of strategy.

Oh, and Inside the Paint has college teams, too - I have the full NCAA set from last year.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Calis

Thanks for the info on the basketball games. I think I will give Above the Rim a shot tonight because there is nothing to lose, and if it is well polished and playable I might as well. It looks like the newest Ultimate version of it is completely played on PC? I'd read some comments that you'd need to print out the cards and use a combo. My printer is junk and that doesn't interest me, so hopefully it can be completely Excel-based.

That game you mentioned looks great Galaril. I might like having the computer doing some legwork and still maintaining a tabletop feel. Looks cheaper than Replay at least initially as well, unless I'm missing a base package you'd have to purchase. That's pretty nice having every season as well, do you find it to be pretty good on a realism front?

Something where I could be free to do some what ifs with moving players to different teams and such would interest me as well, but I'm not sure if most of these games have team ratings based off the specific structure. It looks like Replay does.

TMG has a bunch of draft leagues that people run I have not joined one ye but they look fun so you definitely can move players around. On realism, TMG is real spot on with players stats and thus overall team stats. that said there still is alot of unpredictability from game to game just as in the NBA. So, in a best of seven series the Thunder aren't going to beat the Celtics but in one night at home Oklahoma City could surprise the Celts.

I am playing a full season replay of the 2007-2008 Celtics and Rockets and the results are very realistic for the most part. The Celtics are 11-2 and the Rockets 3-8 with a bunch of tough losses on a real tough early season schedule. Here is the link to my replay and the posted box scores which are real nice. Also, this forum is a TMG exclusive and the member are real helpful to give more info. The last selling point I found with TMG is different eras do play and feel differently so the early 1970s will be high scoring but the post 96 eras are much more defense oriented.
http://forums.delphiforums.com/TMSpo...es/?listmode=1

[cubboyroy1826]

Okay has anyone tired out the Inside Sports Tennis?

[Calis]

I spent last evening trying out Above the Rim and TMG both. I went with AtR first and was initially overwhelmed so I downloaded the demo for TMG. Demo comes with 2008 Cavs and Lakers so I played through a game of that and just kept PDF of player cards up on my 2nd monitor.

Took a few minutes to come to grips with the system, but I was really impressed once I did. It moves at a quick clip, makes it really difficult for you to screw up, and I like how the little added strategy of picking who recieves a pass with a set number of how many times you can pick them in a game. Nice way to maintain realism and add some strategy.

I ended up buying the '98 season because I enjoyed the game so much. I can see playing a lengthy replay with this one. It is pretty slick looking, keeps good stats and the cards look nice(assuming they're printed on quality stock). Gets major bonus points for ease of use and quickness. If I wasn't having to scroll through a PDF to find results I'd have flown through the game. Fatigue was a little finicky to keep guys rested and seems to do massive penalties, so I'm not sure how I feel on that but everything else seemed solid.

Cavs wound up winning pretty easily. Kobe and Lebron did what you'd expect, but the Lakers had serious foul issues with Bynum and Gasol and the Cavs had a nice mix of scorers. I did some weird test stuff so can't say much on realism. I will begin a real series this weekend. Hopefully he ships out cards quickly, I'd like to get them to play in between Xmas and New Year's.

I then went back and gave AtR a more serious look. It is definitely more complicated and easy to accidentally mess something up, but for a free game it is pretty outstanding. Huge roster selections and the ones I looked at seemed right on.

It was slow to play, but probably due to my newness to the game. It is actually relatively simple to play once you get over the initial shock of the amount of info present. I did accidentally click several times on something that didn't do what I expected so could lead to some real funky stats. I didn't even think to see if an Undo from Excel would work to go back, I forgot I was even using Excel while playing.

Definitely a game I will keep playing until TMG gets here and after because of the roster selection. It isn't pretty, but the engine seemed solid and you can't beat the scope.

Thanks for the suggestions, I'm loving both of them. I found what I read on the AtR needing cards also, he says that he has an old version you can request that uses cards, but it was never a requirement to use them.

I will try out the demo for that Inside the Paint game also.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Calis

I spent last evening trying out Above the Rim and TMG both. I went with AtR first and was initially overwhelmed so I downloaded the demo for TMG. Demo comes with 2008 Cavs and Lakers so I played through a game of that and just kept PDF of player cards up on my 2nd monitor.

Took a few minutes to come to grips with the system, but I was really impressed once I did. It moves at a quick clip, makes it really difficult for you to screw up, and I like how the little added strategy of picking who receives a pass with a set number of how many times you can pick them in a game. Nice way to maintain realism and add some strategy.

I ended up buying the '98 season because I enjoyed the game so much. I can see playing a lengthy replay with this one. It is pretty slick looking, keeps good stats and the cards look nice(assuming they're printed on quality stock). Gets major bonus points for ease of use and quickness. If I wasn't having to scroll through a PDF to find results I'd have flown through the game. Fatigue was a little finicky to keep guys rested and seems to do massive penalties, so I'm not sure how I feel on that but everything else seemed solid.

Cavs wound up winning pretty easily. Kobe and Lebron did what you'd expect, but the Lakers had serious foul issues with Bynum and Gasol and the Cavs had a nice mix of scorers. I did some weird test stuff so can't say much on realism. I will begin a real series this weekend. Hopefully he ships out cards quickly, I'd like to get them to play in between Xmas and New Year's.

I then went back and gave AtR a more serious look. It is definitely more complicated and easy to accidentally mess something up, but for a free game it is pretty outstanding. Huge roster selections and the ones I looked at seemed right on.

It was slow to play, but probably due to my newness to the game. It is actually relatively simple to play once you get over the initial shock of the amount of info present. I did accidentally click several times on something that didn't do what I expected so could lead to some real funky stats. I didn't even think to see if an Undo from Excel would work to go back, I forgot I was even using Excel while playing.

Definitely a game I will keep playing until TMG gets here and after because of the roster selection. It isn't pretty, but the engine seemed solid and you can't beat the scope.

Thanks for the suggestions, I'm loving both of them. I found what I read on the AtR needing cards also, he says that he has an old version you can request that uses cards, but it was never a requirement to use them.

I will try out the demo for that Inside the Paint game also.

Calis,

glad you like TMG. Tom Mink is a good guy and he ships the cards very fast I not be surprised depending where you live to Tom in Indiana that you don't get the Cards by Monday. The cards are real nice and easy to read with a nice touch of color and have the teams accurate logos based on the years of the season. On Fatigue I too played a few games with the fatigue and single click but after a few games did not use it any more. So I would recommend not using the fatigue penalty and check the no penalty for fatigue in the options menu. It will still show you when a player in the half is over his standard rest minutes based on that players MPG and needs to get some rest. So I try to play "as played rosters" lineups and use real injuries and transactions. Check out this site for getting the injury,trade demotions info for teams and seasons:http://www.prosportstransactions.com/basketball/
I also recommend not using the single click option since if you hit the wrong button.

[PadresFan104]

Hey guys, speaking of tabletop games, I have been having a great time with a newer football "quick-play" game from Jeff Downey called Momentum Football. It resolves each game on a drive-by-drive basis, so this is not a game for people who want control over each play. What's great though, is that the engine identifies the players involved in key plays, and has enough possible events to keep each game interesting. The momentum feature is well implemented as well.

I don't think there are many people like me who like these "20 minute" games, but if you do, I'd encourage you to check it out. More info is here: http://downeygames.tabletop-sports.com/

[Calis]

Originally Posted by Galaril

Calis,

glad you like TMG. Tom Mink is a good guy and he ships the cards very fast I not be surprised depending where you live to Tom in Indiana that you don't get the Cards by Monday. The cards are real nice and easy to read with a nice touch of color and have the teams accurate logos based on the years of the season. On Fatigue I too played a few games with the fatigue and single click but after a few games did not use it any more. So I would recommend not using the fatigue penalty and check the no penalty for fatigue in the options menu. It will still show you when a player in the half is over his standard rest minutes based on that players MPG and needs to get some rest. So I try to play "as played rosters" lineups and use real injuries and transactions. Check out this site for getting the injury,trade demotions info for teams and seasons:Professional Basketball Transactions Archive
I also recommend not using the single click option since if you hit the wrong button.

Thanks for the link. I think I will turn off the fatigue also and just manually monitor it. I can see situations where I'd need some bend in the minutes and the penalty seems to severe.

I'm not sure what one-click mode is, but I will check that when I play again. I assume I'm in it, because I did mess up a couple times and was unable to undo it which is supposedly an option.

I actually got a response from Tom on Twitter and he is printing my cards up now so looks like the turnaround is quick.

[Calis]

Well to bring this back around from my basketball derailment for a second, I actually spent way too damn long yesterday playing 2nd and 10. I was really impressed. I started with a quick sim of 2008, and towards the end of the season I'd jump into important games, see if they were close and finish them out, and then in the playoffs I controlled both offenses.

Really was a blast, and I think the results were pretty good. I like the abstracted way of calling plays, and the system limiting overuse of players.

It helped that I had a bunch of great games in the playoffs, I think all but one of the games leading to Super Bowl was decided by 5 points or less and a couple went to OT.

I will more than likely end up buying it. I threw some mods on there to spice up sounds and pictures. Makes a big difference.

I think I will end up buying it, the price doesn't seem too bad to me because of the sheer number of teams you get. I can see myself going back through the years and doing a "quick" year-sim like I did yesterday and seeing how things play out.

Back to basketball though, anyone have experience with Action PC Basketball? I took a look yesterday and it seems like their games add a lot more choices for the player, going so far as to sorta blur the lines between being a coach and player. Is it a good sim? Software good? I see they have a 2009 projection set and I'd consider getting that for my current NBA needs.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Calis

Well to bring this back around from my basketball derailment for a second, I actually spent way too damn long yesterday playing 2nd and 10. I was really impressed. I started with a quick sim of 2008, and towards the end of the season I'd jump into important games, see if they were close and finish them out, and then in the playoffs I controlled both offenses.

Really was a blast, and I think the results were pretty good. I like the abstracted way of calling plays, and the system limiting overuse of players.

It helped that I had a bunch of great games in the playoffs, I think all but one of the games leading to Super Bowl was decided by 5 points or less and a couple went to OT.

I will more than likely end up buying it. I threw some mods on there to spice up sounds and pictures. Makes a big difference.

I think I will end up buying it, the price doesn't seem too bad to me because of the sheer number of teams you get. I can see myself going back through the years and doing a "quick" year-sim like I did yesterday and seeing how things play out.

Back to basketball though, anyone have experience with Action PC Basketball? I took a look yesterday and it seems like their games add a lot more choices for the player, going so far as to sorta blur the lines between being a coach and player. Is it a good sim? Software good? I see they have a 2009 projection set and I'd consider getting that for my current NBA needs.

Action I tried out and way too much options for play calling actually. I like amny others are skeptical of the games accuracy. On SAT Second and Ten football. I am also not sure of the accuracy of that one. When I play out games the results are mixed I guess it just means I am a crappy play caller. One thing that is awesome is the price is very reasonable.

[CraigSca]

I just picked up Inside the Crease this weekend with the 1984-85 NHL teams. It's been a lot of fun thus far, especially playing teams like the Nordiques (with the Stastny brothers and Michel Goulet) vs. teams like the Flyers who just have an awesome defense. The game itself really captures the flow of hockey.

[Glengoyne]

I have a quick question about the basketball games. Are the players represented on individual cards that can move from team to team without trouble? A group of my friends and I dedicated a few years to completing full 162 game baseball seasons on Earl Weaver baseball where we drafted individual players from through out baseball history.and assembled "dream teams". We did something similar, although on a smaller scale with XOR basketball.

I'm just wondering if this kind of thing would be possible with these tabletop or even excel based games.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

I have a quick question about the basketball games. Are the players represented on individual cards that can move from team to team without trouble? A group of my friends and I dedicated a few years to completing full 162 game baseball seasons on Earl Weaver baseball where we drafted individual players from through out baseball history.and assembled "dream teams". We did something similar, although on a smaller scale with XOR basketball.

I'm just wondering if this kind of thing would be possible with these tabletop or even excel based games.

Which basketball game ? TMG yes and i ebliev you print out the cards for ITP they are individual also.

[Calis]

Originally Posted by Galaril

Action I tried out and way too much options for play calling actually. I like amny others are skeptical of the games accuracy. On SAT Second and Ten football. I am also not sure of the accuracy of that one. When I play out games the results are mixed I guess it just means I am a crappy play caller. One thing that is awesome is the price is very reasonable.

That's my fear on Action. I actually think I want a more hands-off approach like I'm watching the game rather than playing the game, with some minor strings to pull. That's what I liked about the 2nd and 10 playcalling system. It gives you general control without bogging down, which in turn can hide issues. I think it does a good job really making the superstars stand out also. A top-tier WR is a treasure there and you have to really plan out when to utilize that and how to ration it.

Heh, I noticed the same thing with my called games. The games I playcalled were generally off-base with stats, but the quick sims seem pretty believable stat-wise. I didn't delve too deep, but I'm not too picky on this, just needs to be believable. I don't know if it is my calling or the system that leads to this.

[rowech]

I've tried Action PC games from time to time. Everytime I get lured back in, I play for a while, and then realize why I don't like them. The results are always a bit too convenient. I feel like the game gives you the massive illusion that all of these decisions really come into play and it's as detailed as you can possibly imagine. Yet, there are plenty of posts on their message board if you look far enough back, where people make changes to ratings to see if there is a difference and unfortunately, there aren't.

Too often with action, the results seem too convenient for me to trust them.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Galaril

Which basketball game ? TMG yes and i ebliev you print out the cards for ITP they are individual also.

I was looking at TMG, based on the high level overview info here. I'm going to dig into both.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

I was looking at TMG, based on the high level overview info here. I'm going to dig into both.

Oh ok then yes individual cards and real good quality with colored team logos pretty nice. I can not speak for ITP it looks good to but season are fairly few since it is a new game. I personally found the cards way to busy for my liking and so settled on TMG.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by Galaril

Oh ok then yes individual cards and real good quality with colored team logos pretty nice. I can not speak for ITP it looks good to but season are fairly few since it is a new game. I personally found the cards way to busy for my liking and so settled on TMG.

I admit, the cards are a little busy, but that's only because they have different sections for different states of the game (regular offense, fastbreak offense, etc.). What I like about ITP is that the PC version takes care of the statistical minutiae and drives the game - but you're still playing it like on the table top. Also, every time the ball is passed or a shot is attempted the defensive matchup has an opportunity to prevent the transaction - and it's seamless - it's not another dice roll or anything, you're just asked to check the defender's rating. Oh, and the one other thing - ITP is for both pro and college. I'm a big college fan (pro not so much) and I've asked Tom Mink for years to make a college season, but he's been devoted to pro and doesn't seem to want to make a change.

Oh also - regarding the busy cards - when playing the PC version if ITP, it highlights in green exactly what you should be comparing or clicking. For instance, if a rebound card comes up saying to compare the rebound rating of the offensive SG and the defensive SF, it will highlight their ratings in green, making the game eminently playable and fast-moving.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

I was looking at TMG, based on the high level overview info here. I'm going to dig into both.

Did you take the plunge and get TMG?

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Calis

I spent last evening trying out Above the Rim and TMG both. I went with AtR first and was initially overwhelmed so I downloaded the demo for TMG. Demo comes with 2008 Cavs and Lakers so I played through a game of that and just kept PDF of player cards up on my 2nd monitor.

Took a few minutes to come to grips with the system, but I was really impressed once I did. It moves at a quick clip, makes it really difficult for you to screw up, and I like how the little added strategy of picking who recieves a pass with a set number of how many times you can pick them in a game. Nice way to maintain realism and add some strategy.

I ended up buying the '98 season because I enjoyed the game so much. I can see playing a lengthy replay with this one. It is pretty slick looking, keeps good stats and the cards look nice(assuming they're printed on quality stock). Gets major bonus points for ease of use and quickness. If I wasn't having to scroll through a PDF to find results I'd have flown through the game. Fatigue was a little finicky to keep guys rested and seems to do massive penalties, so I'm not sure how I feel on that but everything else seemed solid.

Cavs wound up winning pretty easily. Kobe and Lebron did what you'd expect, but the Lakers had serious foul issues with Bynum and Gasol and the Cavs had a nice mix of scorers. I did some weird test stuff so can't say much on realism. I will begin a real series this weekend. Hopefully he ships out cards quickly, I'd like to get them to play in between Xmas and New Year's.

I then went back and gave AtR a more serious look. It is definitely more complicated and easy to accidentally mess something up, but for a free game it is pretty outstanding. Huge roster selections and the ones I looked at seemed right on.

It was slow to play, but probably due to my newness to the game. It is actually relatively simple to play once you get over the initial shock of the amount of info present. I did accidentally click several times on something that didn't do what I expected so could lead to some real funky stats. I didn't even think to see if an Undo from Excel would work to go back, I forgot I was even using Excel while playing.

Definitely a game I will keep playing until TMG gets here and after because of the roster selection. It isn't pretty, but the engine seemed solid and you can't beat the scope.

Thanks for the suggestions, I'm loving both of them. I found what I read on the AtR needing cards also, he says that he has an old version you can request that uses cards, but it was never a requirement to use them.

I will try out the demo for that Inside the Paint game also.

Are you still having fun with TMG. I am playing out the Celtics 2007-2008 Season and then the full playoffs before moving on to the 1985-1986 Rockets season.

[PadresFan104]

Thought I'd share my most recent tabletop football project with you guys. I just finished a "pre-play" of the 2009-2010 NFL playoffs with Momentum Football. As a Chargers fan, it sucked, but Jets fans should enjoy the read. If interested, head over to my blog for the details: RANdom Gamer