NFL Coordinators/Coaches

[JS19]

So, my friend and I were discussing earlier, "because a guy is a great offense/defense coordinator, why does that translate to him being a good head coach?". I didn't have an answer for him. Lets use Spagnuolo as an example. For arguments sake, let's just agree that he was a great defensive coordinator. Now, because he knows how to handle a defense extremely well and game plan, why does that equate to him being a competent head coach? I should add, I don't know the in's and out's of football, so maybe I'm wrong, but if he does a great job at coordinating a defense, shouldn't he stay there? My only answer for him was that being a coordinator isn't considered a glorified position, and they aren't gonna get paid top dollar. Honestly, and I can be totally off base with my interpretation of exactly what their responsibilities are due to my lack of knowledge with football, but it seems like a flawed system.

[MikeVic]

Yeah, but who else do you try out as a coach then?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

Yeah, but who else do you try out as a coach then?

Exactly, and it seems to me most coaches were a coordinator at some point. Plus I think teams are going away from hiring a college guy after some high profile flops, Saban, Petrino, Carroll, etc...

[jbergey22]

One key for a good head coach is learning to delegate authority. If you are known as a defensive mind the good ones will stick to that and make sure they have a capable offensive mind running the offense.

The bad head coaches are the ones that seem to want to be involved in everything.

Gernerally the head coach is only as good as his assistants.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by JS19

So, my friend and I were discussing earlier, "because a guy is a great offense/defense coordinator, why does that translate to him being a good head coach?". I didn't have an answer for him. Lets use Spagnuolo as an example. For arguments sake, let's just agree that he was a great defensive coordinator. Now, because he knows how to handle a defense extremely well and game plan, why does that equate to him being a competent head coach? I should add, I don't know the in's and out's of football, so maybe I'm wrong, but if he does a great job at coordinating a defense, shouldn't he stay there? My only answer for him was that being a coordinator isn't considered a glorified position, and they aren't gonna get paid top dollar. Honestly, and I can be totally off base with my interpretation of exactly what their responsibilities are due to my lack of knowledge with football, but it seems like a flawed system.

I have never coached football at any level but from watching my buddy coach high school football I think the different position coaches and coordinators are steps on the ladder just like any job. All the coordinators are is next in line to be the head coach. College and NFL seem to both follow the same line of reasoning. (Position coach-->Assistant--->Coordinator-->Head of small school--->Head of big school--->Head of BCS contender school)

Why do Obama and Bush become president?
Why do judges move to the supreme court?
Why do attorney's become state wide politicians?

Its all the same game. The 32 head coaching jobs are held by (supposedly) the 32 best coaches.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by Lathum

teams are going away from hiring a college guy after some high profile flops, Saban, Petrino, Carroll, etc...

Huh?

Neither Saban or Petrino flopped in the pros, they just decided they'd rather be in college (although I would agree they ended up being disastrous hires because of it). Carroll was not a college hire - he was a 'hot NFL coordinator' hire who later went to coach in college.

[Eaglesfan27]

Also, people forget that Carroll had some good years coaching in the NFL before it went down hill.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by Samdari

Huh?

Neither Saban or Petrino flopped in the pros, they just decided they'd rather be in college (although I would agree they ended up being disastrous hires because of it). Carroll was not a college hire - he was a 'hot NFL coordinator' hire who later went to coach in college.

I'll agree with Carroll b/c he doesn't really quite qualify (as you state why above).

However, Saban and Petrino have to be considered flops. How bad were the Dolphins when Saban left? It's taken Bill Parcells longer to turn around Miami than it did for him to turn around New York or Dallas. And Mike Smith took Petrino's team (which really struggled in that single season before Bobby took off for Arkansas) to the playoffs the following season.

Of course they'd rather be in college, they were way more successful there. That's why they were NFL flops.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

I'll agree with Carroll b/c he doesn't really quite qualify (as you state why above).

However, Saban and Petrino have to be considered flops. How bad were the Dolphins when Saban left? It's taken Bill Parcells longer to turn around Miami than it did for him to turn around New York or Dallas. And Mike Smith took Petrino's team (which really struggled in that single season before Bobby took off for Arkansas) to the playoffs the following season.

Of course they'd rather be in college, they were way more successful there. That's why they were NFL flops.

Its taken Parcells longer to turn around Miami than if did for him to turn around NY or Dallas?

Miami was 1-15 with Cam Cameron as HC and Randy Mueller as GM in 2007, 11-5 division winners in 2008 with Parcells in charge. That is the biggest single season turnaround in his career.

I realize that neither Saban nor Petrino set the NFL on fire, both were wanted back by their teams the season they left, although Petrino's status was less solid. I am pretty sure he would have been brought back, as he is largely regarded as having inherited one of the worst situations ever: the Falcons right after Vick's fall from grace. Smith did improve them, but methinks having Matt Ryan and Michael Turner helped over Chris Redman/Joey Harrington and Warrick Dunn.

[Lathum]

My bad on Carroll. As for the other 2 not sure how you can't say they weren't flops. You have to factor in how they left into things.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by Lathum

My bad on Carroll. As for the other 2 not sure how you can't say they weren't flops. You have to factor in how they left into things.

But, you're not factoring in how they found things. Neither inherited a very good team, and Petrino inherited a disaster. I am not convinced he left things worse than he found them. He found them with Harrington/Redman/Leftwich as QBs

Can you really blame the state of the Falcons in 2007 on Petrino?

I agree that the way they left things made both disastrous hiring decisions. But, Saban did not totally flop as a coach, and Petrino's grade was incomplete.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

That Jimmy Johnson guy was a terrible hire by Dallas.

[Antmeister]

Yep and I guess Bobby Ross was a bad hire for the Chargers (former college coach turned pro).

[Lathum]

So your best examples are from 20-30 years ago?

[Noop]

A good coordinators who has shown the ability to motivate and organize typically can be good head coaches. If you're the head coach of an NFL team you must have some say in who is brought into your team. As a head coach you are more in tuned with the needs of the team then a general manager; who might under orders from the owner, go out and sign a player who is a bit fit chemistry wise.

The main thing with being success as a Head Coach is being able to motivate, relate and organize a repeatable process of success.

[MrBug708]

Carroll wasnt a flop, his teams just got progressively worse. Just like Chan Gailey wasn't a flop at Dallas, but his teams never got better

[Swaggs]

Tom Coughlin has been pretty successful, in my opinion.

[jbergey22]

I can think of many more college head coaches that failed in their initial bump up to NFL head coaching than ones that have succeeded.

Which would seem logical as they are basically two different games. You need to have some NFL background to be familiar with the game.

I think Lathum nailed it.

[aran]

Originally Posted by Samdari

Its taken Parcells longer to turn around Miami than if did for him to turn around NY or Dallas?

Miami was 1-15 with Cam Cameron as HC and Randy Mueller as GM in 2007, 11-5 division winners in 2008 with Parcells in charge. That is the biggest single season turnaround in his career.

I imagine Parcells in the NFL as being like Skydog playing FOF with house rules and slightly better AI.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

I can think of many more college head coaches that failed in their initial bump up to NFL head coaching than ones that have succeeded.

The same "more have failed than succeeded" statement applies to coordinators too.

That's why so many previously successful coaches get recycled - the hit rate for new ones is pretty low.

Bill Parcells went 3-12-1 in his first season with the Giants, and there were loud calls for his head from the fans.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Samdari

The same "more have failed than succeeded" statement applies to coordinators too.

That's why so many previously successful coaches get recycled - the hit rate for new ones is pretty low.

Bill Parcells went 3-12-1 in his first season with the Giants, and there were loud calls for his head from the fans.

I wouldnt argue that.

Being in the right place at the right time is such an important part of the success for an NFL coach.

Since winning is the only thing that really matters, 3-7 head coaches every year will get canned whether they are good coaches or not.

I think with the state of the Raiders right now Bill Parcells would struggle to keep his job if he were a coach there.

I had to jump in because I thought a couple of comments were pretty unfair to Lathums point which seemed pretty accurate to me.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Samdari

I agree that the way they left things made both disastrous hiring decisions. But, Saban did not totally flop as a coach, and Petrino's grade was incomplete.

IMO when you hire a guy to turn your team around and they don't that is a flop. Factor in the way they both left and it certainly makes things worse.

I think NFL teams as well as high profile college coaches realize there is a difficult transition. There is a reason why guys like Stoops. Meyer, Peterson, Miles, etc... are still college coaches.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by Lathum

IMO when you hire a guy to turn your team around and they don't that is a flop. Factor in the way they both left and it certainly makes things worse.

My point is nearly every hire is made by teams in sorry states. Most don't get turned around right away. 'Hot' coordinators have flopped lots of times - even guys who later turned out to be pretty good coaches.

My point is that most NFL head coaches flop. To say that college coaches don't succeed in the NFL because you can name many more failures than successes is silly- you can do that with any category of hire. Most college coaches flop. No SB winning coach has left and won the Super Bowl with a second team.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Samdari

My point is nearly every hire is made by teams in sorry states. Most don't get turned around right away. 'Hot' coordinators have flopped lots of times - even guys who later turned out to be pretty good coaches.

My point is that most NFL head coaches flop. To say that college coaches don't succeed in the NFL because you can name many more failures than successes is silly- you can do that with any category of hire. Most college coaches flop. No SB winning coach has left and won the Super Bowl with a second team.

Then why have NFL teams all but abandoned hiring college coaches and likewise why don't uber successful college coaches lobby for NFL jobs?