Bears into the cave?

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

But almost all those teams had better QBs than the Bears. Unless you have a world class defense, you have to throw the ball to win in the Super Bowl.

I haven't argued with you at all on this. I agree that it is a passing league.

However...

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Having a great WR makes a mediocre QB look much better.

I disagree strongly here. WRs are very QB dependent.

The top WRs in the NFL this year:

Sidney Rice
Reggie Wayne
Vincent Jackson
Colston
Fitzgerald
Welker
Moss
Driver

What do they have in common? Favre, Manning, Rivers, Brees, Warner, Brady, Brady, Rodgers.

How much has Calvin Johnson helped those QBs he's played with in Detroit? Hell, the Lions entire strategy revolved around receivers and they still couldn't get a QB to look decent there. How was Roddy White before Matt Ryan arrived?

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I think that's the problem though. This mentality that we have to "play Chicago Bears football". That style of play has passed the NFL by. The rules are set to benefit the passing game. Sure the weather is tough at times, but it's also tough out in New England.

The Bears need to stop with the stereotype and hire a coach that will implement a scheme that will win games. Not make cute slogans for t-shirts.

Well you were playing Chicago Bear football(strong defense, strong running game) prior to this year and made it to a super bowl and won a majority of your games within the past 5 years. The Bengals changed their philosophy this year and are doing quite well. The Pats have been winning SB's because of strong defense and smart QB. Its not like they are playing home games in January putting up huge offensive numbers. In fact in 07 they ran into some bad whether in the later weeks and had their lowest scoring outputs of the season. Id agree that the NFL rules benefit the passing game however when the weather changes you win with defense and a run game unless you plan on getting to the Super Bowl on the road.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I disagree strongly here. WRs are very QB dependent.

The top WRs in the NFL this year:

Sidney Rice

True, Rice was just a talent until Favre got there. He was basically a non factor.

Terrell Owens is just crap this year because he has no QB.... The 2nd greatest WR in history(Moss) sucked balls with the crappy Raiders.

[Julio Riddols]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

Do you realize how hard it is to build the O and D lines with only 3rd rouneders and later? The big bodies go quickly, and it is hard to find good, reliable lineman after round 2. You can occasionally, but you wouldn;t want to rely on it.

Thats why I said it would take a few years to do this. The Bears are only going to get worse for a couple years more than likely, unless they stumble upon a ton of gold nuggets late in the next draft.

Cinci has made a pretty solid case for having a non-stud O and D-line and making it work.. Their O-line has 3 undrafted guys starting I believe, and defensively they have a bunch of mid-late rounders who play a lot- (Peko, Fanene, M.Johnson, Rucker, Geathers, and castoff Tank Johnson) So it can be done, but I doubt it happens in anything short of at least 3 years of building.

Hester would be great out of the slot, on gadget plays, and going back to returning kicks/punts, but there is really not a lot else to work with and no real threat who garners double coverage and helps open up the field. Incredible special teams play can make a mediocre team much harder to beat too, so maybe they get a punter with a golden leg like Lechler from Oakland.. His leg alone is worth a win or two a year I would be willing to bet..

[TroyF]

atocep,

I don't think that entry from Football Outsiders did much to help your case. Read the words carefully again. He's not an elite back. (it's hilarious they say that and then compare him to Emmitt Smith. Their own rankings have Forte as the 38th best running back on runs last year)

Forte is the 35th rated running back on runs in the NFL this year. He's behind Larry Johnson. Think about that.

Receiving? He's ok, but nothing special there either. 41 catches, under 9 yards a pop. 3 catches of 20 yards or more all year. (with a long of 37)

Johnson? He is an elite WR.

As for how many elite WR have won, let's think about this:

1) Last years Super Bowl featured Larry Fitzgerals and Boldin vs. Hines Ward and Santonio Holmes. (all four are upper echelon WR)

2) The year before was Moss vs. Plaxico. (ask Eli how important Plax was)

But even if none of them had won a title or got there, that is irrelevant. Forte isn't an elite RB and he never will be. If he's doing this at 23 years of age, I shudder to think what he's going to do when he really wears down.

Johnson gives you an elite WR for the next five years to go with your strong armed QB. Forte can be replaced with a fourth round pick.

Your problem is the Texans wouldn't even consider the deal. They'd laugh at you. So you'll get your way and keep Forte. Just do me a favor and don't be shocked when the next coach comes in and has Forte as a 12 carry or less a game back within two years.

[TroyF]

dola:

One last note, Forte is really bad this year. I know the Bears offensive line sucks, but Forte isn't helping them at all.

He had 121 yards against Detroit. 90 against Cleveland. That's 40% of his rushing yards on the year in two games against two of the worst teams in the league. He's rushed for an average of 37 yards in the other 9 games. Forte has rushed for 75 yards or more in a game three times in his last 16 outings.

I'm sorry, but forget elite. The guy isn't even average at running the ball. He's a third down pass catching RB. I don't want to make it seem like I hate the guy, I don't. But he's just not a very good RB. (and please don't tell me it's all the lines fault. If he can't be even partially effective behind the line, he's in trouble, that line isn't getting better tomorrow)

[Blackadar]

Is anyone really surprised? Cutler hasn't won a damn thing in his life. He puts up great stats and looks good doing it, but doesn't have that winning instinct. He couldn't win at Vandy, couldn't win at Denver and hasn't won at Chicago. I think he's a good QB, but I don't think he's a winner.

I think the Bears should fire Lovie Smith and hire Bill Cowher if they could get him. I think he'd fit quite well with that team. He's used to dealing with odd weapons (Slash, Randle El, Hines Ward) and could make good use of Hester. He'd toughen the line and install an aggressive defense that would try to make plays rather than the read-and-react defense the Bears seem to have become.

[Sgran]

yeah, bring in an established coach, you know, like Dusty Baker or Lou Pinella... Oh wait, wrong sport.

But seriously, I'm pretty sure every Bears fan would love to have Cowher (maybe even Shanahan), but for whatever reason successful coaches in Chicago have been untested: Phil Jackson, Ozzie, Ditka.... um... Halas?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Sgran

yeah, bring in an established coach, you know, like Dusty Baker or Lou Pinella... Oh wait, wrong sport.

But seriously, I'm pretty sure every Bears fan would love to have Cowher (maybe even Shanahan), but for whatever reason successful coaches in Chicago have been untested: Phil Jackson, Ozzie, Ditka.... um... Halas?

call me crazy but i'm not sold on phil jackson as an effective "coach." he's a lucky coach in my book. very very lucky.

wandered into the most revolutionary basketball player in a generation - check

brought into a situation with the "heir apparent" to the "most revolutionary player in a generation" and a second "once in a generation" type player - check

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Mike Brown would like to disagree.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Mike Brown would like to disagree.

or maybe lebron isn't quite that transcendent. or mike brown is worse than phil jackson (that still doesn't make phil jackson a great coach)

[DaddyTorgo]

idk...not trying to shit on phil jackson too hardcore...just not sure how much influence a coach has in basketball really...particularly with guys who are so transcendent in a 1v1 game that they don't need designed plays or complicated offenses to score.

[Fidatelo]

Everyone is focusing too much on 'skill positions' (RB, WR) as the fix to the Bears. The real fix, as it is for almost any bad team, is on the O-line.

Screw Andre Johnson, Matt Forte, or even Jesus if he's wearing a number in the 80's. I want 4 kick-ass hogs that can give my mediocre-to-average 'skill' guys the time and space they need to succeed.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

Everyone is focusing too much on 'skill positions' (RB, WR) as the fix to the Bears. The real fix, as it is for almost any bad team, is on the O-line.

+1

If Cutler got more than 1 second a snap to throw the ball, and if there were actually some holes for Forte to run into, this is a completely different team. And if they had some good playcalling on top of that, this is a playoff team (though with still a leaky defense).

[whomario]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

idk...not trying to shit on phil jackson too hardcore...just not sure how much influence a coach has in basketball really...particularly with guys who are so transcendent in a 1v1 game that they don't need designed plays or complicated offenses to score.

Jackson´s biggest achievement has been that he gets "the other guys" to fit in around his star(s) and of course that´s mostly achieved by the triangle, which admittedly isn´t his idea but Tex Winter´s.

Still, he´s a great man-manager. He allways has the role players playing just the way every team would love their role players to play like (and them being happy with that role mostly).


but regarding the bears : I agree that they need an overhaul. Pure "fixing things" won´t help with so many holes and bad-fitting parts.
I do think Cutler deserves a shot with this team changed to fit his needs ...

[Neuqua]

Last year I saw Forte as a B+ guy but as I've posted elsewhere, I'm just not sure. The line is really bad, but as others have stated, he's not getting any separation and not breaking any tackles. That has me concerned.

My fear is that with so many holes, we may not get a chance to go to the playoffs in the Jay Cutler era, and it's not necessarily because of him. We have him signed through what, 2013 now? We need to completely rebuild the OL. We are at the point where we are going to have a lame duck head coach next year.

I'm a Bears fan, and maybe I'm just pessimistic but I just don't see any upside.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Well you were playing Chicago Bear football(strong defense, strong running game) prior to this year and made it to a super bowl and won a majority of your games within the past 5 years. The Bengals changed their philosophy this year and are doing quite well. The Pats have been winning SB's because of strong defense and smart QB. Its not like they are playing home games in January putting up huge offensive numbers. In fact in 07 they ran into some bad whether in the later weeks and had their lowest scoring outputs of the season. Id agree that the NFL rules benefit the passing game however when the weather changes you win with defense and a run game unless you plan on getting to the Super Bowl on the road.

The problem is that it's much tougher to build a consistent defense year in and year out than an offense. A few teams have done it, but not many. There are just too many variables at play. I just don't think you can rely on having a great defense as much as you can rely on a couple star offensive players (especially at QB).

And the Bears made it to the Super Bowl because they had a good offense too. They finished 2nd in the league in scoring and had a semi-balanced attack (despite the bad Rex games thrown in on occasion). The defense was great early on but actually faltered a little later in the year when Tommie Harris and Mike Brown got hurt. I do believe that if Tommie Harris had not gotten hurt, the Bears would have won the Super Bowl.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I disagree strongly here. WRs are very QB dependent.

The top WRs in the NFL this year:

Sidney Rice
Reggie Wayne
Vincent Jackson
Colston
Fitzgerald
Welker
Moss
Driver

What do they have in common? Favre, Manning, Rivers, Brees, Warner, Brady, Brady, Rodgers.

How much has Calvin Johnson helped those QBs he's played with in Detroit? Hell, the Lions entire strategy revolved around receivers and they still couldn't get a QB to look decent there. How was Roddy White before Matt Ryan arrived?

There are only 2, maybe 3 QBs that can have success with just about anything he's given. The rest of the names you are can't. We've seen how Warner and Favre have fared when given weaker supporting casts. Rodgers has a losing record as a starter.

The elite QBs in the league consist of Brady, Manning, and Brees. The next level requires some help from a receiving core to be succesful. Matt Schaub is not among the leaders at QB because he's a great QB. Jay Cutler didn't magically lose all the abilities he had last year, he just lost Brandon Marshall and Eddie Royal.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

Everyone is focusing too much on 'skill positions' (RB, WR) as the fix to the Bears. The real fix, as it is for almost any bad team, is on the O-line.

Screw Andre Johnson, Matt Forte, or even Jesus if he's wearing a number in the 80's. I want 4 kick-ass hogs that can give my mediocre-to-average 'skill' guys the time and space they need to succeed.

I think we were just debating a hypothetical. I do think you need a good QB to win consistently in this league and that's just as important as an offensive line.

I'd go one step further and say D-line as well. A strong D-Line makes everyone look good on defense. If I was a GM, I'd have it a rule that every year a 1st or 2nd round pick must be used on a OL or DL.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

And the Bears made it to the Super Bowl because they had a good offense too. They finished 2nd in the league in scoring and had a semi-balanced attack (despite the bad Rex games thrown in on occasion). The defense was great early on but actually faltered a little later in the year when Tommie Harris and Mike Brown got hurt. I do believe that if Tommie Harris had not gotten hurt, the Bears would have won the Super Bowl.

To add on to this, the Bears' defense is designed to create big plays, at the risk of giving up big plays. If you have an offense that can get you back the 7 your defense just gave up (as they did during the Super Bowl run), you're fine. If you don't (as they do now, and especially last year), you're screwed.