Learning a Second Language

[RainMaker]

Anyone here done it as an adult? I've really wanted to for years and would like to commit myself to doing so. It's not really a necessity thing, just something I've always wanted to accomplish. I know it's real tough as an adult and I'm not putting pressure to learn it real fast or anything. Would probably learn at my own pace and then setup an immersion trip or two at some point to test it.

So has anyone done this? Suggestions? I was thinking of starting off with something like Rosetta Stone and then perhaps taking a class or getting a tutor to help out down the road.

Spanish seems to be the most logical. I already know some of the basics as I took it in high school and college. I'm also sure I'd be able to use it a lot in this country (especially the city). Had thought of Mandarin simply because it would be extremely valuable for business over the next couple decades, but it's also really hard and I'd have to dedicate an amount of time that I don't think I want to.

Any thoughts, suggestions?

[Lathum]

I recently learned sign language, used a completely different part of my brain.

[judicial clerk]

I would definitely vote Spanish because of your head start in it.

A friend of mine learned Spanish as an adult and he now speaks, reads, and writes fluently. The key for him was immersion.

[Karlifornia]

Aramaic, so you can watch "The Passion Of The Christ" without subtitles. Well..parts of it, anyway.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

So has anyone done this? Suggestions? I was thinking of starting off with something like Rosetta Stone and then perhaps taking a class or getting a tutor to help out down the road.

I used Rosetta Stone version 2 for German. It wasn't very good and not worth the money at all. I heard version 3 was improved, but for the money they are asking, there are a lot more cost-effective products out there. There is a product called Fluenz that I have heard a lot of good things about, but that is also very expensive.

Classes and tutors are not really worth it. I've talked to some people who have learned multiple languages, and not one of them either ever took a class or thought the classes they took helped.

Same thing goes with immersion trips. Complete waste of money according to the polyglots I have talked to. If you really want to learn a language, you need to figure out ways to immerse your life. And if you want to test it out, just go to where they speak it.

You will find many people on message boards and blogs talking about how they took a 6 month or 12 month class for X language and went on an immersion trip and found they could not communicate in the language at all. They couldn't understand a word anyone said.

Had thought of Mandarin simply because it would be extremely valuable for business over the next couple decades, but it's also really hard and I'd have to dedicate an amount of time that I don't think I want to.

To be completely blunt, if you don't think you have the time to learn Mandarin, you probably don't have enough time to learn Spanish. Every language has things that are easy and things that are hard. While it probably would take more dedication and focus to learn Mandarin over Spanish, I don't think the difference is so great that you would have the time to learn one but not the other. Mandarin is "scary" because of the writing and pronunciation, but one example of the easy parts is that there are no verb conjugations so all you have to do is learn the verb, and you've learned it for all uses. There is no "go, goes, went, gone", it's just "go" and that's it.

I've been learning German (at about Intermediate level right now) and recently started Japanese (been learning the kanji for a while and learned the hiragana, still need to learn the katakana, but just started learning the actual language).

Since I had taken German in high school, and had a good basic understanding of it (probably around your level with Spanish), I used it as my guinea pig language to try out a bunch of different methods and products. I've been learning German for over 2 years now, but a lot of that time was spent starting over with new products to test them out. Also, I slacked off quite a bit in my first year. Now that I have a good idea on what works for me and what doesn't, I'm focused more on learning Japanese than I am with German at the moment (I still put in time every day for German, though)

I just started Japanese recently and was thinking of starting another dynasty for it (did one for German last year - I'll be upfront and say at least 50% of the things I said in it about learning a language was probably wrong and some of the things I did were not effective at all - so if you go looking for it, keep that in mind if you read it). I've been spending about 60 minutes a day actively studying Japanese, and that includes learning and reviewing the Kanji.

A conclusion I came to this weekend is that is not enough. I'm going to start spending at least 2 hours a day. My goal is to be Intermediate with Japanese by the end of 2010, and I think it will take at least that much time, sometimes more, per day to get there.

It's hard to give out specific advice or product recommendations. Everyone learns differently, so a product that works for me you might find boring as fuck and give up. Something that would work for you I might have found completely ineffective. But there is one universal truth to learning a language, and that it takes a lot of time and dedication.

Also, just because a product is expensive does not mean it's good. I learned that one the hard way a couple of times.

Trust me, once you start....it takes over your life. It has to. You won't learn the language if it doesn't.

[sabotai]

next day dola,

I'll give you 4 recommendations that are cheap and effective (IMO) for Spanish so that you can try them out, but not take a bit hit to your wallet.

I mention SRS several times so I'll explain what that is.

An SRS is Spaced Repetition Software. It's a type of flash card program. What you do is input the "front" and the "back". When you look at a flash card, you see the front...think of the answer...and then reveal the back. You then score yourself on how well you did. How many options you have for scoring depends on the software, but you'll get at least 4 options. Some have 5, some have 6. I use Anki which has 4. The lower you score your answer, the sooner you'll see it again. So if you keep scoring a card at the highest level (meaning you know the answer completely), you see the card 5 days later, then 15 days later, then 40 days later (for example, the time differences depend on the software and you can change the time difference in most of them). But if you keep scoring the card low, you'll see it again the next day, then 2 days later, then 3 days later. If you score it the lowest value, you'll see it every day (again, depending on options).

That way the ones you know will get pushed back, and the ones you struggle with you'll see often.

I don't use an SRS for "vocab words", I use The Sentence Method (explained well here: www.antimoon.com). Instead of "word" - "meaning", you go with "sentence"-"translation" at first. And then as soon as you can, move to "senetence in target languages"-"definition of unknown words in target language". So for you, you would, at first, have something like "Hablo español." and on the back "I speak Spanish". But after awhile, you'll want to go with a sentence in Spanish, and the words you don't know, you'll put the definitions of them in spanish.

I'll give an example from my German deck (I'm just now starting to make the conversion to all German SRS cards)

Front: "Ich möchte gern diese drei Kostüme anprobieren"
Back: "anprobieren - etwas anziehen"

I know that "anziehen" means to try on, etwas means "something", so anprobieren means to try something on. I don't need any English to understand the rest of the words in that sentence, and I know the words in the definition. The goal to throw the crutch (english) away as soon as possible (something I admittedly have not done soon enough) so that it gets you thinking in your target language.

So anyway...

Assimil: Spanish with Ease

Amazon.com: Spanish With Ease: Day by Day Method (Assimil Language Learning Programs, English Base) (9782700510706): J. Anton, John Smellie: Books

Price: $33

(Note: This teaches Castillian - Spanish in Spain, not Latin American Spanish. But there aren't that many differences between the two. Some pronunciation differences, some word usage differences, but nothing major.)

You'll find several Assimil Spanish products on Amazon. This is the one you want. I don't know why they are so cheap on Amazon since they sell for 70 Euro on Assimil's website (which would make them $100+), but they are so take advantage of it. If you look up one on Amazon and the price is higher, you're looking at an older version (except I do think the new Arabic one is expensive). Because of the price, I went a little crazy and bought them for several different languages.

What you get is a dual-language book of a little over 100 lessons and 4 CDs. The CDs have Spanish speakers saying the Spanish lines of the lessons. Each lesson is 10-15 sentences, with several more "exercises" (really just words from the lesson sentances moved around to create more sentences). Plus some fill in the blank exercises (you can pretty much skip those).

What it doesn't do is give a detailed explaination on how to use it. Everyone pretty much creates their own way to use the materials. Here's how I use it (for German):

1. Listen to the lesson 1-3 times without the book.
2. Listen to the lesson 1-3 times while following along with the Spanish side
3. Listen to the lesson 1-3 times while following along with the English side
4. Turn off the audio and read and compare the Spanish and English side, read the grammar notes
5. Listen to the lesson a few more times, once following the Spanish side, a few times without the book.

(Since I'm decently far with German, I only end up listening to it once per step. I use it right now mainly just to help with my listening comprehension)

Should takes about 30-45 minutes per lesson. 15 for the first listening part (steps 1-3 if you are listening to each step 3 times), 10 or more to read and compare, and understand the grammar (step 4), and then 5 or more for the last listening part (step 5). Don't worry about being able to actively use what you learn. You're using this for listening comprehension and reading. Active use comes later.

As you use the product, no doubt you'll mold how you use the product to suite your needs. Don't hesitate to test out different ways to use it. Go with what feels right (but not with what feels easy. "Easy" generally means lazy.)

Also, listen to the CDs on your way to work. Don't worry about not understanding what you hear. You're driving anyway so that should be your focus. Just have them playing. Get your ears and mind used to hearing the sounds of the language. And I'm sure you have a large DVD collection. What geek doesn't? Put movies on with Spanish dubs in the background while you surf the net, or do whatever it is you do with your free time.


1001 Pitfalls in Spanish

Amazon.com: 1001 Pitfalls in Spanish (1001 Pitfalls Series) (9780812096507): Marion P. Holt, Julianne Dueber: Books

Price: $9

I really like this book (used it for German). The problem with most grammar books is that they read too much like textbooks. Dry, boring, overly wordy and the examples they give are usually too advanced for beginners. This grammar book explains things is plain english and gives short and to the point examples.

Start reading this when you start. I'll give my thoughts on grammar in a dynasty I'm going to start later, but to put it simply, "Grammar is a trail map for language 'hikers'". Some people think it's better to learn grammar through immersion, I disagree. Being familiar with the grammar taught in the German version of this book really helped me. My ability to understand German that I read and heard was massively improved after I read through this book a few times (and used the examples in an SRS).

Mastering Spanish Vocabulary

Amazon.com: Mastering Spanish Vocabulary: A Thematic Approach (Mastering Vocabulary Series) (9780764123962): José María Navarro, Axel J. Navarro Ramil: Books

Price: $10

A book full of words and their meanings. I'll explain thoroughly how I used the German version of this book in my dynasty, but a simple explaination is: I look up the words in a dictionary (thefreedictionary.com) and enter the example sentences into an SRS.

The reason I recommend this specific source of words is because the book will provide at least 1 sentence example for each word (sometimes putting 2 or 3 words in the same sentence). So if you can't find a good sentence in the spanish dictionary, you get at least 1 from this book.

1001 Most Useful Spanish Words

Amazon.com: 1001 Most Useful Spanish Words (Beginners' Guides) (0800759291137): Seymour Resnick: Books

Price: $2 (!!)

A simple, small book. A list of 1001 words. The reason to get this is because each word comes with a sample sentence. 2 bucks for 1001 sentences ready to be inputted into an SRS. Can not beat that.

I don't recommend using the SRS right away. Get into the rythym of using Assimil every day and reading the grammar book. After awhile, start inputting the sentences you find in Assimil and 1001 Pitfalls into the SRS. Start slowly, like 20 sentences a day, and work you way up.

The most important thing with using an SRS is that you have to at least do the reviews every day. You miss a day or two, and suddenly the cards that are due for review pile up.

So there is 4 products, ~$55 plus shipping to get you started. If you don't like them, it's only $60 or so out of you pocket, not $500+ like Rosetta Stone would be.

[Sgran]

I have to disagree with Sabotai. I think lessons are the way to go.

About me: I grew up in the Chicago burbs and studied French in school, eventually getting a minor in college. I learned German as an adult at the Goethe Institute. I moved to Hungary and now speak Hungarian fluently (one of the hardest languages in the world to learn). I started to learn Russian, but gave that up after 3 months to focus on learning Hungarian better. I also have 4 years of experience teaching English.

My suggestion to you is to take classes in Spanish (forget Chinese unless you are one of those insanely driven people) with people who at your level who are genuinely trying to learn the language. You will learn as much from them as you will from the teacher. Get into a habit of spending one hour a night at a specific time devoted to Spanish. Read books, newspapers, and magazines and look up the words you don't know in a dictionary (many experts will tell you not to do this, but I feel it's important) and make flash cards from the new words. Then plan a trip to Mexico, even if it's a ways into the future. YMMV

[Neon_Chaos]

Key to your selection of a second language has to be how often are you going to use it?

Frankly, if you don't use it often, you're essentialy "unlearn" anything you do learn.

From a practical stand point, do you have anyone with whom you could speak this language with? How often?

I've essentially "unlearned" my Chinese (Cantonese), since I don't get to spend time with most of my Chinese relatives that much.

[RainMaker]

Thank you for all your suggestions. I apologize for the delay in response. The books mentioned look real helpful and are surprisingly cheap. I do tend to take it serious and spend a lot of time on it.

As for Neon's statement about useage, I think that's what makes Spanish much more enticing. I live in Chicago and for better or worse, we have a lot of spanish speaking residents. I can walk a few blocks outside my office and into any establishment and probably find someone who speaks it. It's certainly not the same as immersing myself into the life such as living in a spanish speaking country, but it does give me ample opportunity to use the language a lot in everyday life (something I wouldn't get with Mandarin). I'd also imagine the spanish speaking channels on TV would give me some opportunities to hear it used in TV shows/movies to help pick up on it more.

Ultimately I'd like to take some trips to use it down in Mexico and South America. I've been yearning to go to the Galapagos Islands and visit Peru someday.

[MalcPow]

I'll actually offer some positive experience with Rosetta Stone as something to think about. If the price tag isn't too imposing (~$180), you can actually subscribe to a web-based Rosetta Stone subscription that gives access to all six (for Spanish) levels of the RS program for six months. You will not own any CDs or anything, but considering each of the hard copy levels costs about the same amount, you can get great value from this approach if you're really interested in putting some time in. I did this recently, and was progressing through a level each month (at a very reasonable pace) before hitting some time constraints and burnout after level 3. I found the RS method really engaging and productive for me, and I'd strongly recommend taking the plunge for their web-based subscription option if the pricetag isn't too much of an upfront barrier. I'd also strongly recommend spanish as your choice. I think it's far easier to achieve a pleasurable level of competency with the language that opens up enjoyable travel or other experiences than slogging away with something like Mandarin where the upside for a hobbyist is pretty limited.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by MalcPow

I'll actually offer some positive experience with Rosetta Stone as something to think about. If the price tag isn't too imposing (~$180), you can actually subscribe to a web-based Rosetta Stone subscription that gives access to all six (for Spanish) levels of the RS program for six months. You will not own any CDs or anything, but considering each of the hard copy levels costs about the same amount, you can get great value from this approach if you're really interested in putting some time in. I did this recently, and was progressing through a level each month (at a very reasonable pace) before hitting some time constraints and burnout after level 3. I found the RS method really engaging and productive for me, and I'd strongly recommend taking the plunge for their web-based subscription option if the pricetag isn't too much of an upfront barrier. I'd also strongly recommend spanish as your choice. I think it's far easier to achieve a pleasurable level of competency with the language that opens up enjoyable travel or other experiences than slogging away with something like Mandarin where the upside for a hobbyist is pretty limited.

Thanks, how well do you speak it now? How long did it take you to get to that point?

[Silver Owl]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Anyone here done it as an adult? I've really wanted to for years and would like to commit myself to doing so.

Yea, I did it a couple times after I got married. Not so much anymore.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It's not really a necessity thing, just something I've always wanted to accomplish.

Its not really a necessity unless you want children but it is fun once you get the hang of it.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I know it's real tough as an adult and I'm not putting pressure to learn it real fast or anything.

Its not real tough, pretty easy actually. You will be under a lot of pressure the first time, but you are correct, take it nice and slow.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Would probably learn at my own pace and then setup an immersion trip or two at some point to test it.

Absolutely, take some time and practice by yourself. Yes, take some trips and practice, practice ,practice.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

So has anyone done this? Suggestions? I was thinking of starting off with something like Rosetta Stone and then perhaps taking a class or getting a tutor to help out down the road.

Is Rosetta Stone a hooker name? She can probably give you some advice. Shouldn't you take a class before the hooker? Either way is ok I suppose.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Spanish seems to be the most logical. I already know some of the basics as I took it in high school and college.

Yes, Spanish women are beautiful. They only teach the very basics in school. Nothing like doing it and putting those teachings to use.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I'm also sure I'd be able to use it a lot in this country (especially the city).

Just be careful, there are things called STD's, use protection.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Had thought of Mandarin simply because it would be extremely valuable for business over the next couple decades

same as above

Originally Posted by RainMaker

but it's also really hard and I'd have to dedicate an amount of time that I don't think I want to.

It won't be hard after you have done it. You have to want to do it or you will start having problems.

Hope this helps ... what? ... this is about learning a second language? ... crap ... I guess I should have read the thread title.

[Icy]

Something that helps once you have reached a good writing/reading level, and that at least has improved my English a lot, is to watch movies in the language you want to learn.

First maybe using subs in your own language, just to get used to the language accent and pronunciation, and once you can underestand it properly written, start to use that language subs until you don't need subs at all.

I have learned a lot of casual English watching TV series like Friday Night Lights, Lost, Desperate housewives, etc and also NFL and NBA games, to the point that i can talk in English very fluid now, while in the past i could read and write it properly, but had a bad time understanding it when spoken, specially with North Americans, as i was not used to it.

Also to visit, read and try to participate in forums spoken in the language you want to learn can help a lot to learn slang and the real spoken language, way different than what you learn in books. Try find forums related to something you already like, as you will feel more immersed in the stuff they are talking about.

In my case it helps the passion i have for USA sports as i have immersed myself a lot on the culture, history etc surrounding those sports.

[MalcPow]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Thanks, how well do you speak it now? How long did it take you to get to that point?

Hard to say, there's a pretty necessary maintenance component to these sorts of things. I think Rosetta Stone is a really great way to push through the more inane repetitions of vocabulary, verb conjugations, and conversational phrases. You can certainly get yourself to a point where the rhythm and structure of the language become familiar and accessible. True fluency obviously requires some consistent and prolonged immersion or usage, but I'd say it took me two to three months to get to a point where I was following the general flow of speech and capable of offering manageable responses. That's probably about where I am today after a couple month layoff.

As a general thought though, learning a language might be best approached as a kind of lifestyle addition. It's not something you complete, like plowing through some unread novels, but something you've got to work into your life somehow at a more lasting and consistent level (or it does fade considerably). There's a ton of monotonous, repetition-intensive work that you have to put in before that really becomes an issue though, and Rosetta Stone is the most engaging method of getting through that time period that I've seen.