Thread for continuation of opinion/belief argument, so it's out of the RR thread

[NiteMaestro]

Originally Posted by Dandelion

So what?

Still the question remains: where's the beef?

I don't deny the fact that Ben's opinions are based on experience.. nonetheless without any hard data to test against they're still only that: opinions.
And, although you might think that noobs like me should not fall under that rule, there IS the rule that as opinions are like ass holes, everyone is allowed to have one.

No, Ben's statements are not opinions.

He is not telling us whether he likes how the RR works out, or if he likes the question, test results, etc.
He is saying *this is fact*.

Now, because we don't "know" 100% then it's his belief, but that in itself warrants a different tone/approach.

Not trying to call you out in particular Dandelion, so don't take offense. I just saw this as a opportunity to point out the important difference between fact, opinion, and belief, because I feel that too many people confound the three and it leads to... *issues*.

Fact - Knowledge that's *known*, it's 100%, or something similar. Ex: Acceleration due to gravity is approximately -9.81 m/s^2; The 49ers are 2-0 right now.

Belief - Knowledge that is debated, and/or cannot be proven/known at the time. Ex: The 49ers will be undefeated. (We cannot really know this, but it's not an opinion because it is not a statement of how the party *feels* about said information). Children are the closest to God. (Similarly, we can't really *prove* this, and because it's not professing an *emotional* feeling about an ideal, it is not opinion.)

Opinion - Not based in knowledge whatsoever. A statement about one's personal feelings regarding something. Ex: I hate that the 49ers won last night. (See, here an emotion is clearly attached, and the *fact* is not being debated, it's a statement of emotion.) I absolutely love how House started off this season. (Not talking about how House started itself, but how they *feel* about it.)


As I said, not trying to call you out Dandelion, just something I noticed and wanted to address ASAP. That being said, if you want, PM me, and I'll move this to another thread/new thread somewhere you feel is more appropriate.

[OldSchool]

Originally Posted by NiteMaestro

No, Ben's statements are not opinions.

He is not telling us whether he likes how the RR works out, or if he likes the question, test results, etc.
He is saying *this is fact*.

Now, because we don't "know" 100% then it's his belief, but that in itself warrants a different tone/approach.

Not trying to call you out in particular Dandelion, so don't take offense. I just saw this as a opportunity to point out the important difference between fact, opinion, and belief, because I feel that too many people confound the three and it leads to... *issues*.

Fact - Knowledge that's *known*, it's 100%, or something similar. Ex: Acceleration due to gravity is approximately -9.81 m/s^2; The 49ers are 2-0 right now.

Belief - Knowledge that is debated, and/or cannot be proven/known at the time. Ex: The 49ers will be undefeated. (We cannot really know this, but it's not an opinion because it is not a statement of how the party *feels* about said information). Children are the closest to God. (Similarly, we can't really *prove* this, and because it's not professing an *emotional* feeling about an ideal, it is not opinion.)

Opinion - Not based in knowledge whatsoever. A statement about one's personal feelings regarding something. Ex: I hate that the 49ers won last night. (See, here an emotion is clearly attached, and the *fact* is not being debated, it's a statement of emotion.) I absolutely love how House started off this season. (Not talking about how House started itself, but how they *feel* about it.)


As I said, not trying to call you out Dandelion, just something I noticed and wanted to address ASAP. That being said, if you want, PM me, and I'll move this to another thread/new thread somewhere you feel is more appropriate.

Opinion and belief are the same thing. Its possible to differentiate by nuance, (beliefs generally being more strongly felt over longer periods of time) but you did a horrible job of that here.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by OldSchool

Opinion and belief are the same thing. Its possible to differentiate by nuance, (beliefs generally being more strongly felt over longer periods of time) but you did a horrible job of that here.

But he's cerebral! Or Celeval! Or somewhere in between!

[Firefly]

Opinons and beliefs are not the same thing. One is based on faith, the other on facts. Then again, this is obscured by the fact that we say "I believe..." to express both beliefs and opinions.

Not that I understand why we are debating that here.

[OldSchool]

Originally Posted by Firefly

Opinons and beliefs are not the same thing.

First entry from dictionary.com definition of "belief":
1. something believed; an opinion or conviction

One is based on faith, the other on facts.

One definition of "belief" is tied to religious beliefs or faith, I suppose that's what you are referring to. It doesn't invalidate the other definitions, and its pretty clear that in the context of this discussion we aren't referring to religious "beliefs" any more than we're referring to supreme court "opinions". You might as well argue that a fork isn't an eating utensil because an alternate definition means the place where a road splits in two directions.

As for your assertion that an "opinion" must be based on facts, I have no idea where you pulled that from, its just flat out incorrect.

Like I've already said, they're distinguishable by nuance which appears to be the point you're trying to make.

Not that I understand why we are debating that here.

Thanks for not letting that stop you from such a well thought out post.

[Firefly]

Well, you do feel strongly about it. From thefreedictionary.com

Opinion is applicable to a judgment based on grounds insufficient to rule out the possibility of dispute: "A little group of willful men, representing no opinion but their own, have rendered the great Government of the United States helpless and contemptible" (Woodrow Wilson).

A belief is a conclusion to which one subscribes strongly: "Our belief in any particular natural law cannot have a safer basis than our unsuccessful critical attempts to refute it" (Karl Popper).

[OldSchool]

Originally Posted by Firefly

Well, you do feel strongly about it.

Not really. I just posted something, you jumped in to say I was wrong, and in a reply to your post I showed that I was indeed correct and you were wrong. Since you continue to post about this subject, it would appear that by your own standard you feel strongly about it. See how that works?

From thefreedictionary.com

Opinion is applicable to a judgment based on grounds insufficient to rule out the possibility of dispute: "A little group of willful men, representing no opinion but their own, have rendered the great Government of the United States helpless and contemptible" (Woodrow Wilson).

A belief is a conclusion to which one subscribes strongly: "Our belief in any particular natural law cannot have a safer basis than our unsuccessful critical attempts to refute it" (Karl Popper).

Given that those definitions don't in any way support your original post or refute mine, I have no idea why you posted this.

[Firefly]

Really? Oh, well. Let's leave it at that.

[OldSchool]

Originally Posted by Firefly

Really? Oh, well. Let's leave it at that.

I think that would be best.

[Firefly]

I'm stuck waiting for some dude to deliver a paper and have nothing to do, so I did a little research. It turns out I had it backwards: opinions are more wishy-washy and superficial, and beliefs arise from deeper reflection and have a stronger basis. For example, Bertrand Russell considered beliefs to be "probable opinions".

Nothing personal, OldSchool, like I said, I don't even know what the larger argument is. I'm just into this sort of thing.

[RedKingGold]

Boys, boys, let me settle this:

You both have pathetically small penises. Satisfied?

[OldSchool]

Originally Posted by Firefly

It turns out I had it backwards: opinions are more wishy-washy and superficial, and beliefs arise from deeper reflection and have a stronger basis.

You know, you're now pretty much paraphrasing the post you started off disagreeing with... "Opinion and belief are the same thing. Its possible to differentiate by nuance, (beliefs generally being more strongly felt over longer periods of time)"
(I'm making the assumption that you are familiar with the term "nuance")

For example, Bertrand Russell considered beliefs to be "probable opinions".
Nothing personal, OldSchool,

Its cool, and I appreciate the examples and all, but I already know what these words mean.

You both have pathetically small penises. Satisfied?

One time I was out with some friends and we were talking about modern day fallacies, and one of them says something like "how about that one that says guys with small packages like short girls because it makes their junk look bigger", then he notices the chick I'm hitting on is like 4'11" and I'm now staring nervously into my beer.

[NiteMaestro]

To respond to those who dictate that belief and opinion are the same thing, I ask you this.

Belief or Opinion

I like pepperoni pizza.
Matt Ryan is the best QB ever.
The Giant's defense can't even hold water.
I hate that Mike Vick is back in the NFL.


Afterwards, ask yourself how you'd respond to someone not agreeing with something you like. Next ask yourself how you'd respond to someone not agreeing with something you 'know'.

Very different reactions, right?
Therein lies the difference between belief and opinion. (my apologies if I used the wrong 'lie' in that context.)

[OldSchool]

To respond to those who dictate that belief and opinion are the same thing, I ask you this.

Belief or Opinion

I like pepperoni pizza.
Matt Ryan is the best QB ever.
The Giant's defense can't even hold water.
I hate that Mike Vick is back in the NFL.


Afterwards, ask yourself how you'd respond to someone not agreeing with something you like. Next ask yourself how you'd respond to someone not agreeing with something you 'know'.

Very different reactions, right?
Therein lies the difference between belief and opinion. (my apologies if I used the wrong 'lie' in that context.)

I think you're trying to describe the nuance I've referred to several times now. Try this exercise, look up synonyms for "belief" and watch "opinion" be there, and vice-versa.

[Jughead Spock]

Another thing to throw in the silly debate.

Saying 'I like' or 'I hate' isn't opinion or belief. It's fact. As long as you're not lying.

[NiteMaestro]

My point is that we're not being precise with those two words, though there are contextual situations where it's clear there has to be 'some' difference.

If you were to say to a devout Christian, "that's just your opinion", their response is likely to be rather... 'flustered' to say the least.
However, say, "that's just your belief", and you will get an altogether different response.

I know what you're saying about the 'definition' and how their being considered synonyms, but in 'real life', that definition breaks down.

And Jughead, my point was that what you like/dislike doesn't change what the thing is. Pepperoni pizza is pepperoni pizza, whether you like it or not. That's what makes it (referring to "like" vs. "hate") an opinion. No fact is being debated outside of your personal feelings (emotional, to be clear) towards it.
Belief is not based upon those personal feelings, but on 'fact'. Whether the fact is accurate or not, is debatable, or cannot be discerned, but it is still a 'fact'.

Think of it like this.
If you believe something, that means that you will act in a manner based upon certain things you 'know' to be true. Those facts are debatable, but nonetheless, to you, they are true.
If you have an opinion on something, you will act upon it, of course, but not not because of something you 'know', but because of something you 'feel' (emotionally).

Is that clearer?

[JS19]

I'm confused, I can't believe pepperoni pizza is better than plain cheese?

[DaddyTorgo]

what is this all in relation to?

[DaddyTorgo]

okay i have a general statement on all of that, and it's something that's always puzzled me:

by and large we have a very open and welcoming community. but why, when it comes to tests on how the game works and such, are players (particularly MP players I guess, since they do the bulk of the number-crunching) so hesitant to give out all the details of their conclusions.

take for example ben's statement in that thread about not wanting to give away all of his conclusions because it would harm his MP-domination.

wouldn't it be more realistic to actually put all the data out there for everyone to have. that way all the multiplayer GM's are on even-ground and your success in MP isn't based on stuff like "how many test seasons you run" but is more based on gameplanning and roster-management and such?

i don't play MP so I don't really have a horse in this race, it just seems to me that if you want MP-FOF to represent the most "realistic" environment there'd be even more openness about data-sharing...

[gstelmack]

Perhaps you should be asking why there is the need for all the testing and data-sharing in the first place...

[DaddyTorgo]

is that intended to be a witty retort?

i'm just curious is all.

like i said...doesn't matter to me one way or another. i find the quantity of data that is shared is quite often more than i can possibly incorporate into my SP careers, and in fact i often play without even knowing about any of it...feels more realistic to handicap myself that way, and i still stumble upon the booms/busts and such.

[DaddyTorgo]

i also enjoyed ben's slam on the OT-forum in that thread

[Chief Rum]

What the heck is RR?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

What the heck is RR?

route running (the FOF-bar)

[Chief Rum]

Oh, of course, how obvious.

[Rizon]

One of the worst threads I've ever read.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

is that intended to be a witty retort?

No, it's me griping about the game again.

The reality is folks don't share everything because it's hard work to dig it up, and it gives them a small advantage over the other guys digging other things up.

My gripe is that with FOF2k4, I felt like I had control over my gameplan, and nudging things one way would have fairly predictable, noticable results. In FOF2k7 it's become so convoluted that it's difficult to know what buttons to push to make things happen and then measure the effect they actually had in game.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

what is this all in relation to?

Yeah, what the hell is the RR thread?

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

Yeah, what the hell is the RR thread?

Forget it. I just read the above post.

This is a really dumb thread.

[Toddzilla]

Next time, please keep your silly arguments IN the RR thread.

This thread sucks

[Autumn]

I'm glad we took care of this, ASAP!!

[Epi_862]

Originally Posted by NiteMaestro

My point is that we're not being precise with those two words, though there are contextual situations where it's clear there has to be 'some' difference.

If you were to say to a devout Christian, "that's just your opinion", their response is likely to be rather... 'flustered' to say the least.
However, say, "that's just your belief", and you will get an altogether different response.

I know what you're saying about the 'definition' and how their being considered synonyms, but in 'real life', that definition breaks down.

And Jughead, my point was that what you like/dislike doesn't change what the thing is. Pepperoni pizza is pepperoni pizza, whether you like it or not. That's what makes it (referring to "like" vs. "hate") an opinion. No fact is being debated outside of your personal feelings (emotional, to be clear) towards it.
Belief is not based upon those personal feelings, but on 'fact'. Whether the fact is accurate or not, is debatable, or cannot be discerned, but it is still a 'fact'.

Think of it like this.
If you believe something, that means that you will act in a manner based upon certain things you 'know' to be true. Those facts are debatable, but nonetheless, to you, they are true.
If you have an opinion on something, you will act upon it, of course, but not not because of something you 'know', but because of something you 'feel' (emotionally).

Is that clearer?

No.

Opinion = Belief. You described something that is purely contextual, and grammatically not right. Say, if i said "We ran a train on your girlfriend", you would propably - in the context - have a different interpolation of what a train is. But a train is still a train, and that one phare is just one of few isolated incidents.

Opinions and beliefs are the same thing. In the real world, in the fake world, and any other world. People have explained it, pointed out the dictionary quotes. Thats just the way it is, and thats a FACT, not a an opinion.

Now, on another topic: Can a person believe a fact?

[Fidatelo]

Opinion or Belief?: This is the most faggoty thread ever.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

i also enjoyed ben's slam on the OT-forum in that thread

Can we still not say anything bad about him?

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

Opinion or Belief?: This is the most faggoty thread ever.

Fact or Fiction - Is this thread faggoty?



Jonathan Frakes says YES!!!

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

Fact or Fiction - Is this thread faggoty?



Jonathan Frakes says YES!!!

Double fail.

[lighthousekeeper]

who got rickrolled?

[duckman]

Like my brother, this thread is really really.......gay.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by OldSchool

One time I was out with some friends and we were talking about modern day phallacies, and one of them says something like "how about that one that says guys with small packages like short girls because it makes their junk look bigger", then he notices the chick I'm hitting on is like 4'11" and I'm now staring nervously into my beer.

Fixed that for you. Doesn't seem like it'd make much of a difference but this word is longer which some say is better.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

This is the most faggoty thread ever.

I believe this to be the most factually correct opinion.

[MJ4H]

Going and reading the other thread reminds me of why I was never even slightly interested in playing FOF multiplayer.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by MJ4H

Going and reading the other thread reminds me of why I was never even slightly interested in playing FOF multiplayer.

seriously

[Izulde]

This thread's even better a cure for insomnia than reading a lot of Poe's whiny philosophical stuff.

[NiteMaestro]

Originally Posted by Epi_862

No.

Opinion = Belief. You described something that is purely contextual, and grammatically not right. Say, if i said "We ran a train on your girlfriend", you would propably - in the context - have a different interpolation of what a train is. But a train is still a train, and that one phare is just one of few isolated incidents.

Opinions and beliefs are the same thing. In the real world, in the fake world, and any other world. People have explained it, pointed out the dictionary quotes. Thats just the way it is, and thats a FACT, not a an opinion.

Now, on another topic: Can a person believe a fact?

That statement, 'We ran a train on your girlfriend', isn't an opinion though. No matter what.
It could be belief though, if it's someone who you thought was the girlfriend but really wasn't... Then you think you did, but actually didn't.

[Firefly]

Originally Posted by Jughead Spock

Another thing to throw in the silly debate.

Saying 'I like' or 'I hate' isn't opinion or belief. It's fact. As long as you're not lying.

It's interesting that we normally assume full knowledge of our internal states. But couldn't a person be wrong about what he/she likes?

Maybe we can start another silly thread about internal states that doesn't distract from the silly thread about opinion/belief!

Not that I think there's anything silly or "gay" about this. It's just a bit out of place in a forum about a football simulation

[Firefly]

Originally Posted by Epi_862

Opinions and beliefs are the same thing. In the real world, in the fake world, and any other world. People have explained it, pointed out the dictionary quotes. Thats just the way it is, and thats a FACT, not a an opinion.

Now, on another topic: Can a person believe a fact?

I only wish Bertrand Russel were alive so you could explain it to him!

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by Firefly

Not that I think there's anything silly or "gay" about this. It's just a bit out of place in a forum about a football simulation

Hi, my name is FOFC. Nice to meet you.

The front page has threads on tan lines, Tona Roma parody and a guy blowing a horse and you find a discussion on opinions/beliefs/facts odd?

[Izulde]

It wouldn't surprise me if Tony Romo's blown a horse or two in his day. He's from Burlington, after all.