(discussion) Idiots, Assholes, and Morons, Oh my!

[SirFozzie]

Seeing the ESPNBoston discussion thing going on, I wanted to break something out, and wanted to see what folks think on this:

Online, one can feel free to let their inner asshole out, because there's little to no consequence for those actions. In a Face to Face enviroment, there's a lot more "go along to get along", because A) You have to live/work/co-exist with others, and B ) In some cases, saying what you really thing of race/nationality/political affilliation/orientation etcetera can get you fired or punched in the face repeatedly.

For example, take your average loosely moderated "discussion board" (I'm not counting FOFC in this one, more like the comments section of any online article, or stuff like the comment section off most ESPN.COM articles. I'll add stuff like Wikipedia, etcetera

There's no community, really, thus there's no consequences for being an asshole, except, in a lot of cases "Hey, those assholes banned me! I'll create a new account and go after them even harder!" (Trust me, I've worked against folks who've gone through a couple hundred accounts trying to get their POV to spread on Wikipedia)

Then we have something like FOFC, where it's not quite as bad, because despite the fact it's simple to register a new account, because the community tends to shun those who are here only to disrupt.

In general, the more community, the more that it will tend toward the average/center/groupthink, and the more that those who hold fringe positions will be marginalized and ignored on that subject. At best they will be tolerated, if they don't push things too hard.

Not to say it's all go along to get along.. I'm sure we can name 10-15 areas, where the community can hold widely divergent views and/or hot button issues, that posting a thread on it is guaran-damn-teed to get the usual folks arguing in the usual way. Hell, I can think of a couple where I AM one of the usual ones to be arguing in the Usual way.

The more interesting parts is stuff like DailyKos, FreeRepublic, or any other such focused area. Folks with marginal views feed each other's beliefs and set the new group think. I'm sure that your average KosKiddie thinks the Freepers are a blight and should be removed, and the Freepers think the very same of the Kossites. Thus, when they step out of the Echo Chamber and into folks that don't buy into the echo chamber effect (or more succinctly, folks that believe the exact opposite way) the real fireworks begin.

In general, am I right that the more community/moderation, the less fireworks you'll have, but the more groupthink will occur? How do you propose to enable honest, open discussion between folks of different viewpoints, without the attendant flamewars and fireworks?

[DanGarion]

Damn I thought this topic was going to be about the FOFC.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

In general, am I right that the more community/moderation, the less fireworks you'll have, but the more groupthink will occur?

I'd say that's probably reasonably accurate offline, so online shouldn't be all that different.

Now onto the actual question part

How do you propose to enable honest, open discussion between folks of different viewpoints, without the attendant flamewars and fireworks?

I think the level of the explosions are fairly well aligned to the "internal heat" associated with the issue and that a certain amount of fireworks is inevitable if the issue is big enough.

One of the things that seems to get overlooked a lot in discussions about online civility (and etc) is that the anonymity & relative safety of the keyboard allows (causes?) people to delve into topics they wouldn't visit in any detail "in polite company". The old saw about religion & politics basically.

If you had face to face discussions occurring at the same rate in the general populace about impassioned subjects as happens in some internet arenas & conducted those with the stronger ends of the viewpoints frequently facing each other then you'd end up with a rise in the assault & battery rate. Two SC fans were assaulted with baseball bats at their hotel here in Athens after Saturday night's game by attackers wearing (no kidding) red & black who apparently followed them after the game, some guy lost part of a finger at a health care deform meeting (or wherever that incident occurred). Think the internet isn't going to have a much higher incident rate given the additional physical & legal safety it provides?

I'd strongly argue that the internet is probably much more "real" than what takes place in face time, at least there people can say more of what they really feel than is generally done IRL (percentage varies by person naturally).

[SirFozzie]

This is one of the things that I was thinking about when talking about how when one steps out of the echo chamber and meets someone of different viewpoints, fireworks can ensue..

YouTube - Man demanding public option goes through 9/12 anti-healthcare reform protest

While funny, I think it's rather suicidal to do something like that.

Edit: I changed the title of the youtube video in the link. Fair warning

[RendeR]

*snip* just not worth getting into this today.

Tea-baggers, redefining American ignorance in 2009.

[SirFozzie]

While I tend to agree that a public option is a good thing.. come on, that's just not smart. That's like marinating yourself in steaksauce, walking into the lion cage, and punching the nearest lion in the face and say "That's for all the Christians your ancestors ate!"

In other words, what the hell did he THINK would happen?

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Tea-baggers, redefining American ignorance in 2009.

Someone is ignorant because they don't agree with you? Typical liberal.


See, now I'm contributing to your point, Foz!!!

[Subby]

What the hell do you have against mormons?

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

Someone is ignorant because they don't agree with you? Typical liberal.

Irony, I hope?

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by Subby

What the hell do you have against mormons?

They're all Moronis!!!!

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

Irony, I hope?

I was being semi-sarcastic because of the theme of the thread.

You ignorant ass!!!

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

Someone is ignorant because they don't agree with you? Typical liberal.


See, now I'm contributing to your point, Foz!!!

Yes because Obviously my only reason for such a statement is the fact that they disagree.

ass.

And I'm not a liberal. I'm A-political as in pretty much anyone IN politics probably ought to die as far as I'm concerned. I have a better chance of watching the Bengals win 5 straight Super Bowls than I do of finding 10 truly qualified, honest and unbigoted politicians in the world.

[RendeR]

Fucking Schmidty =)

Kids got me really pissed atm and I missed the sarcasm entirely.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Fucking Schmidty =)

Kids got me really pissed atm and I missed the sarcasm entirely.

Gotcha!!!!

[RendeR]

*Slaps schmidty with a 100lb flounder*

[Autumn]

I think probably the amount and type of recognized moderation that occurs as part of that community determines how much "groupthink" it has. If the community is essentially policed just by our social nature, then I think it tends to have a sort of unconscious identity that is enforced through "shaming." Allowing divergent opinions requires active moderators who would have the recognized role of stepping in and providing a more ritualized way of determining what's out of line and what isn't in a community.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Online, one can feel free to let their inner asshole out, because there's little to no consequence for those actions. In a Face to Face enviroment, there's a lot more "go along to get along", because A) You have to live/work/co-exist with others, and B ) In some cases, saying what you really thing of race/nationality/political affilliation/orientation etcetera can get you fired or punched in the face repeatedly.

I know I have said some stuff people don't agree and for the most part people respectfully disagreed. However their are a select few who because they are behind a computer feel the need to be disrespectful. Some of the shit people have said to me on this board is well... let's just say I wouldn't tolerate that level of disrespect.

Other then that I agree with you great post.