Your views on marijuana legalization

[AgPete]

Interesting story on MSNBC's Dateline:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/875312.asp

It's about an author that was helping Oakland carry out its medicinal marijuana laws. Now that most of the west coast has legalized marijuana for medicinal purposes, cities and states are hiring people to grow the marijuana for them. This gentleman (a regular writer for High Times magazine ) was given permission by Oakland to grow plants for its program. Basically, he was growing starter plants that could be sold to cancer, MD, etc. patients so that they could become self-sufficient and grow their own plants. He was actually losing money on it and was doing it as an act of charity. (I'm sure he was taking a little extra for himself on the side though. ) He's not a moron, he knows that federal law takes priority over state laws but he was assured by Oakland that their new legal defense would protect him. Maybe someone familiar with it can explain it better but apparently local governments use some loophole that allows local government officials (specifically, undercover cops) to handle illegal drugs and stay safe from federal prosectuion. The City of Oakland was going to use the same defense with employees of the city helping launch the medical marijuana program.

Anyways, one early morning, the FBI and DEA knock on this guy's door, arrest him and bring him to trial. At trial, the judge would not allow any mention of this man's true intentions including the exclusion of the words "medical marijuana." The jury never heard why he was growing this and to them, it looked like he was growing it to sell. As soon as the jury convicted him they were told the true facts and were pissed at the judge and prosecutors. They felt conned and got together to rally in support of the man they had just mistakenly convicted.

Tactics like this remind me of Nazi Germany more than America. I myself am for the complete legalization of marijuana and feel there are two primary things that keep it from happening: misinformed political leaders and typical political action. ANYONE who has tried marijuana knows that alcohol is more dangerous. We'll probably never find out if the government continues to act the way they did in the aforementioned case but my guess is if marijuana was legalized in the same way alcohol is, there would be fewer marijuana related deaths than alcohol related deaths. This drug is NOT addictive and I can't believe the crap the "Just Say No" commercials try and pull with this drug. Some leaders must believe the garbage they were fed growing up and refuse to look at marijuana as a different drug than heroin, cocaine, etc. Now that the older WWII generation is not in charge and the baby boomers that were around marijuana in college are, I believe plenty of them would support legalization but look at it as political suicide and are too afraid to vote for what is right.

I've read several threads that mention many members here are conservative in their political views and I was curious what you thought about this issue? For me, it has nothing to do with politics and is more of a generation issue or the life experiences you've encountered. Kudos to people that have led squeaky clean lives but I think most of us had a little fun in college.

[Airhog]

I was just thinking about this the other day, And those misleading commercials that supposedly show the truth. It would be very hard to disprove what they are saying, because they pay off scientists to create studies that are favorable to their views. I still however beleive that someone should sue the government for the commercials.

Oh, and it should be legalized, but it wont. I would be happy just too see it decriminalized.

[JonInMiddleGA]

With regard to the Cali incident, it looks to me as though the guy fell victim to some bad legal advice somewhere along the line.

And there's really nobody to blame for that but himself.

Do the crime, do the time.

[Raven]

How could he not be able to plead his case? Where were the defense witnesses? Man, sounds like he didn't have much of a lawyer.

[Grid Iron]

IMO, marijuana should be legalized but the punishment for abuse should be extremely harsh. You can use it in the privacy of your own home, but if you take it to public places where other people, and kids, can get high off your smoke, you go to jail. Pay a very high tax, too.

With regard to the Ed Rosenthal case, here is what I wrote in a similar thread a few weeks ago:

Ed Rosenthal, who was permitted by the City of Oakland to grow and distribute MJ to those with cancer, AIDs, etc. under the California medicinal marijuana law, was convicted under federal charges of cultivating the drug. I am very familiar with that case as I work in the Bay Area.

Although the verdict/result seems very unfair, Ed and his attorneys knew exaclty what they were doing and knew what the result would be. It was simply a "test case."

Ed was put on notice long ago, before he was arrested, that even if the City of Oakland allowed him to grow/sell MJ, the feds could prosecute him. He continued to do so because he, and a MJ legalization group, wanted to get the case into federal court as part of a political agenda, whether it be public awareness or seeking out a favorable ruling by the very liberal federal appellate court in CA. Ultimately, he wants to make his pitch to the Supreme Court that the federal government shouldn't trump state's rights to legalize MJ. The Supreme Court probably won't do that. However, he also is hoping that the Supreme Court will say that the judge should have told the jury about his deal with Oakland. If the Supreme Court does decide that, which they probably won't, then MJ distributors in CA basically won't be convicted as long as they have deals with their local cities (which many of them do). That would result in marijuana being essentially "legalized" California.

[AgPete]

I agree with you Grid Iron. He acts innocent but I'm sure there was a hidden political agenda in what he did. I'm still surprised so many people are voting for tougher penalties on marijuana convictions. I've never served jury duty for a marijuana charge but I'd have a difficult time ending someone's life over something as insiginficant as marijuana.

[mckerney]

Originally posted by Airhog
I was just thinking about this the other day, And those misleading commercials that supposedly show the truth. It would be very hard to disprove what they are saying, because they pay off scientists to create studies that are favorable to their views. I still however beleive that someone should sue the government for the commercials.

Oh, and it should be legalized, but it wont. I would be happy just too see it decriminalized.

Another interesting thing about those PSAs can be found in the ones stating "drug money supports terrorism."

First off, let me say [size=4]"HOW DARE YOU!"[/SIZE=4] How dare you try and further your retarded agenda with terrorism because it's a hot issue right now. You pathetic bastards, you're almost as bad as my school principal who gave a message to the school one morning about how the disaster of the space shuttle columbia went to show some self centered message he had towards education. You bastards.

Second, if this really is an actually issue, then I have a perfect solution to prevent drug money supporting terrorism. Legalize it. If people start buying pot grown in fields in Montana from the guy at the 7-11, then the terrorist money connection is cut off. Though they won't follow this plan for one reason. BECAUSE IT MAKES TOO DAMN MUCH SENSE! These ass holes couldn't let people do as they please. We couldn't let people sit around and smoke pot without the possablity of them getting in trouble. They don't personally like drugs, so they can't stand to see people using them without a possablity of them getting in trouble.

It's the same shit we get from the people who use there anti abortion platform to denounce things like contraceptives and the morning after pill. They're not against abortion. They just don't want to see people having sex without the possability of something bad happening to them because they never got any ass in high school. They become total hypocrites because the say there against abortion because they think it's murder, though they don't want people to use something that would prevent the need for an abortion to take place.

These pathetic bastards. I hate them so much! Can't we just get rid of all of these assholes?

[Airhog]

I have to totally agree there. that terrorist line is a bunch of crap. I mean think about it, Those people making heroine, cocaine, pot, etc, Dont want to hurt the USA's economy, they want the economy to be strong, because they want to make more money. I for one have never met a muslim that sold drugs.

[Grid Iron]

Working in the criminal justice field, I guarantee you that drug dealing supports terrorism.

While I don't know of a marijuana connection, to terrorisim, there is a strong connection to heroin and methamphetamine.

Afghanistan is one of the world's largest suppliers of opium, which is ultimately manufactured into heroin. That heroin is mostly sold on the East Coast of the U.S., with the West Coast using mostly Mexican "black tar" heroin.

As for methamphetamine, a large group of arab muslims in the U.S. sell huge quantities of ephedrine to the Mexican meth manufacturers and send the profits back to Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan.

[sabotai]

Buying pot from Mr. stuck in the 70's hippie who grows it in his basement does not support terrorism...but driving your gas-guzzling SUV over to his house to buy the pot does...food for thought....mmmmm....munchies.....

[Airhog]

Originally posted by Grid Iron
Working in the criminal justice field, I guarantee you that drug dealing supports terrorism.

While I don't know of a marijuana connection, to terrorisim, there is a strong connection to heroin and methamphetamine.

Afghanistan is one of the world's largest suppliers of opium, which is ultimately manufactured into heroin. That heroin is mostly sold on the East Coast of the U.S., with the West Coast using mostly Mexican "black tar" heroin.

As for methamphetamine, a large group of arab muslims in the U.S. sell huge quantities of ephedrine to the Mexican meth manufacturers and send the profits back to Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan.

hmm I guess I wasnts thinking much about that when I posted. I still think that the connitation of the messages is still focused on pot thought.

[jerem77]

Okay, I was about to go off on a previous post, but then I saw the poster was McKerney and its just not worth the effort.

[Blackadar]

Free the doobie!

[stkelly52]

I feel no sympathy for this guy. The US constitution clearly states the federal law superceeds all state laws. California can try to legalize pot all it wants, but if the US says no, sorry it doesn't happen.

[Tekneek]

It should be legal, without exception. If any exception is tied to it, it is only that you have to be 18 to buy it legally. That should be the end of it. I've never used it, but the current policy is stupid.

[rexalllsc]

Should be treated like alcohol, IMO. As a matter of fact, I can be completely stoned, and still be completely productive...when I'm drunk, I'm a useless POS.

People will say, "but what if you drive while stoned!" Again, treat it like booze. Don't drive wasted. Don't drive stoned. Don't drive when you're hopped on PRESCRIBED MEDICATIONS (which have gotten me more wasted than booze or pot EVER have)...

...in the end, the only reason it's not legal is because the government hasn't taken the time to figure out how to effectively sell/tax it.

[BishopMVP]

I think people are missing the important issue IMO here. The marijuana debate is obviously not going to be solved by any politicians and we can argue all day. What makes me mad is the jury nullification here. Not telling the jury the facts surrounding the case seems very wrong to me. GridIron said in the other thread that if the juries knew that he was growing it for the city they never would have convicted him. If that is true, and I don't doubt it, it would seem to me like that is evidence of a stupid law. Everyone else has leeway here - the cop can look the other way, the prosecutor can drop the charges, but when the jury decides to take in all the facts and acquit someone it is considered a travesty of justice? I always thought the court system in this country was set up so all people could have a say in the laws and crimes, but then we try to restrict their power.

[tucker342]

I agree Tekneek. Marijuana should be legalized, if it was legalized, that would get rid of the biggest problem of all, drug dealers.

[Airhog]

tucker: no it wouldnt, think about all the dealer selling far worse drugs. Ive never heard of or known anyone that was killed over a pot deal. Now I dont mean at the higher levels, but at the end of the chain. When your talking selling cocaine or heroin your talking alot of money.

[stkelly52]

Originally posted by BishopMVP
I think people are missing the important issue IMO here. The marijuana debate is obviously not going to be solved by any politicians and we can argue all day. What makes me mad is the jury nullification here. Not telling the jury the facts surrounding the case seems very wrong to me. GridIron said in the other thread that if the juries knew that he was growing it for the city they never would have convicted him. If that is true, and I don't doubt it, it would seem to me like that is evidence of a stupid law. Everyone else has leeway here - the cop can look the other way, the prosecutor can drop the charges, but when the jury decides to take in all the facts and acquit someone it is considered a travesty of justice? I always thought the court system in this country was set up so all people could have a say in the laws and crimes, but then we try to restrict their power.

I agree that everyone is missing the main point, but I agree with the judges decision. He knew (and has been proven correct) that the jury would be predjudiced by their own belief that MJ should be legal for mecical purposes. But THE LAW SAYS THAT IT IS ILLEGAL. No excuse is allowed.

[Tekneek]

As far as I am concerned, I'd prefer to have the "War on Drugs" end today. It has been used as an excuse for some of the biggest expansions in government power ever. It is also overran with examples of abuse. What is the end result? Less liberty for all of us, and more dangerous crimes being committed (both by drug lords and by the government).

[Fritz]

Originally posted by sabotai
Buying pot from Mr. stuck in the 70's hippie who grows it in his basement does not support terrorism...but driving your gas-guzzling SUV over to his house to buy the pot does...food for thought....mmmmm....munchies.....

How in the fuck do you go through life without using petroleum products?

In other news I hear a SUV broke loose from its chain, crashed through the wall of a pre-school, and ATE all the children.

[Tekneek]

You can't deny that SUVs are gas-guzzlers most of the time, unless you have some kind of hybrid engine. Everytime I am on the road I lose count of the number of SUVs I see around with just one person in them and not obviously carrying any kind of cargo that would require the use of one. People buy them because of the 'status symbol' they are. They raise the consumption levels of petroleum for all of us by doing it, and make the nation as a whole more dependent on the sources of such fuel. Denying that stuff is ignorant. Now, what conclusions you then draw from that is up to you, but the facts are the facts.

[mckerney]

I see around with just one person in them and not obviously carrying any kind of cargo that would require the use of one. People buy them because of the 'status symbol' they are. They raise the consumption levels of petroleum for all of us by doing it, and make the nation as a whole more dependent on the sources of such fuel.

Hmm... take out the SUV references in your post and it sounds like you could be describing NASCAR.

So are we allowed to say that NASCAR fans are supporting terrorism? And if they are, can we arrest and jail them as co-conspirators?

[Tekneek]

I'm not the one that said anything about linking SUVs to terrorism.

[BishopMVP]

Originally posted by stkelly52
I agree that everyone is missing the main point, but I agree with the judges decision. He knew (and has been proven correct) that the jury would be predjudiced by their own belief that MJ should be legal for mecical purposes. But THE LAW SAYS THAT IT IS ILLEGAL. No excuse is allowed.

Can't you weed (no pun intended) the people out like they do for death penalty cases? That would seem to make more sense than denying the jury all the facts.

Also, I just saw another one of those commercials against drugs. "One-third of all drivers who test positive for drugs after getting in car accidents test positive for marijuana. It is more dangerous than you think. Knowledge: The Anti-Drug" This is asinine and flawed reasoning, and it is disgraceful they are deliberately trying to mislead people. Now, I don't have exact statistics, but I am pretty sure at least where I live that at least 90% of the people who get high on drugs use marijuana, which would mean that the other 10% (coke, heroin, over the counter drugs) cause 67% of the accidents, seemingly indicating that marijuana is significantly less dangerous than other drugs. The fact that the government feels the need to lie to people would seem to indicate that the truth isn't good enough for the people. I know that marijuana is bad for you (same w/alcohol, cigarettes, cocaine, etc.) so can't they find a study saying that is reduces reaction time or go fund one? Sorry to go off on a rant, but I hate when someone tries lying to me. Of course, they could just be stupid and not doing this intentionally.

[astralhaze]

Great book on the subject. Once you read this book you will come away with a completely different view of marijuana and the government's position against it.

[sporrer17]

I think it should be legalized, in part, but like Grid Iron said, make it illegal to go around others who do not choose to use this drug. I think if you are in your own home, whats the big deal...

[astralhaze]

Originally posted by stkelly52
I agree that everyone is missing the main point, but I agree with the judges decision. He knew (and has been proven correct) that the jury would be predjudiced by their own belief that MJ should be legal for mecical purposes. But THE LAW SAYS THAT IT IS ILLEGAL. No excuse is allowed.

However, it was legal in California. Federal law does override state law, of course, but I think it was more of a show case than anything else. The government wanted to make an example of him and he is now gathering publicity to showcase the governments assault on state laws decriminalizing medicinalal marijuana. Since we are having this conversation right now I think that part of it has been succesful. I think he is fucked though.

[AgPete]

Well, I had a lengthy response to many of the arguments in this thread as well as some points that we'll never hear from the "Just Say No" crowd but.... I used the quick response option and for some reason it didn't register me and I lost the entire freaking post! Couldn't even back button my way to my original post. I don't feel like typing it again but I'm glad to see the poll shows that most people realize the truth abouth marijuana.

Marijuana is not harmless. Potheads get stoned, eat way too much, and then get fat. This leads to an early death.

[korme]

That is possibly the best username of all time.

[stkelly52]

Originally posted by astralhaze
However, it was legal in California. Federal law does override state law, of course, but I think it was more of a show case than anything else. The government wanted to make an example of him and he is now gathering publicity to showcase the governments assault on state laws decriminalizing medicinalal marijuana. Since we are having this conversation right now I think that part of it has been succesful. I think he is fucked though.

NO, it is not legal! All the California law means is that people will not be prosecuted in state courts. It is still illegal EVERYWHERE in the US. California cannot choose which federal laws apply in the state and which ones do not.

[astralhaze]

Originally posted by stkelly52
NO, it is not legal! All the California law means is that people will not be prosecuted in state courts. It is still illegal EVERYWHERE in the US. California cannot choose which federal laws apply in the state and which ones do not.

Under federal law, yes, it is illegal. Yes, that applies to all 50 states. However, it is not illegal under the laws of the state of California. That is all I was saying. We are arguing semantics.

[sabotai]

"How in the fuck do you go through life without using petroleum products?"

You can't. What you can do is try to minimize your consumption, though. I mean, if you are the type of person who cares about that sort of thing, which I don't.

Our government imports oil from terrorist supporting countries, not me. So it's the US government that's indirectly supporting terrorism...

And my SUV comment was a repeat of a joke told by Bill Maher...it'd be nice if some people didn't blow up at every SUV comment made around here....

"In other news I hear a SUV broke loose from its chain, crashed through the wall of a pre-school, and ATE all the children."

Yeah, they'll do that.

[Craptacular]

Now if we could only get SUVs to run on mary jane ...

[Fritz]

Originally posted by sabotai
You can't. What you can do is try to minimize your consumption, though. I mean, if you are the type of person who cares about that sort of thing, which I don't.

consumption huh? I drive about 8-10,000 miles per year in my SUV. My wife drive 2.5 times that in a car that gets twice the milage. Who is the bigger consumer?

it'd be nice if some people didn't blow up at every SUV comment made around here....

You do seem to have an long standing anti-SUV obsession, unless I am mistaking your for someone else.

We could both drop our guns in the street and go into the saloon for a sasparilla. I will even let you buy.

[Craptacular]

I hate SUVs too Fritz.

[Fritz]

Originally posted by Craptacular
I hate SUVs too Fritz.

I hate crap.

that puts us at an impasse.

[CleBrownsfan]

Interesting California bill to legalize pot: link

Don't think it will ever pass though...