Confederations Cup Final- USA v. Brazil (LET'S WORK!!!)

[Chief Rum]

Wow, you wasted a lot of time on that.

[BishopMVP]

Apologies for the length of the previous post, although most of it is quotes from the article, so if you read that you don't really need to read that again.

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

as a Galaxy fan, it makes a lot of things about the team the past couple seasons--failing in spite of their talent--make a ton of sense.

You had no talent compared to MLS teams. Beckham and Donovan were fantastic and possibly the two best offensive players in MLS, Sean Franklin was a decently promising rookie, Chris Klein was still decent, and Edson Buddle was made to look good by having Becks and LD assisting him.

That team scored 5 goals more than any in the league and gave up 11 more. Blaming Beckham is idiotic.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Wow, you wasted a lot of time on that.

Copy-paste is my friend. And I was doing it while watching the Tivo'd post-rain delay ending to the Red Sox game (first loss from up 9 in over 20 years), so really, any distraction was welcome.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Apologies for the length of the previous post, although most of it is quotes from the article, so if you read that you don't really need to read that again.You had no talent compared to MLS teams. Beckham and Donovan were fantastic and possibly the two best offensive players in MLS, Sean Franklin was a decently promising rookie, Chris Klein was still decent, and Edson Buddle was made to look good by having Becks and LD assisting him.

That team scored 5 goals more than any in the league and gave up 11 more. Blaming Beckham is idiotic.

Not blaming Beckham myself so much as the situation as a whole. Not really about what's on the pitch, but what's off of it. Sorry, but a team that has "no talent compared to MLS teams" doesn't lead the league in scoring, that just doesn't make sense. If you're talking defensive talent, definitely an issue there, although I think it's a situation that is improving, the defense has been a lot more consistent this year.

The off the pitch stuff, though, come on, that's critical. You yourself say you have been on teams, well, how much did chemistry matter on those teams? That sounds like a mess, what happened last year, and the one at the center of it is Beckham and his camp. You can say that Beckham himself wasn't all that for it, I suppose, but just didn't stand up to his handlers (I can buy that, he always seemed to be a "handled" sorta guy), but you can't say he wasn't a key to it, or put the blame on Donovan, who didn't create the situation.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Copy-paste is my friend. And I was doing it while watching the Tivo'd post-rain delay ending to the Red Sox game (first loss from up 9 in over 20 years), so really, any distraction was welcome.

Heh...understood. Wasn't a whole lotta fun catching the Angel game tonight either. Why for God's sake we keep throwing Saunders out there in Texas--where his ERA is over 6--I have no idea.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Sorry, but a team that has "no talent compared to MLS teams" doesn't lead the league in scoring, that just doesn't make sense. If you're talking defensive talent, definitely an issue there, although I think it's a situation that is improving, the defense has been a lot more consistent this year.

No talent *outside of Beckham/Donovan*. And yes, Arena has improved the team somewhat this season, but obviously those two have missed significant time.

The off the pitch stuff, though, come on, that's critical. You yourself say you have been on teams, well, how much did chemistry matter on those teams? That sounds like a mess, what happened last year, and the one at the center of it is Beckham and his camp. You can say that Beckham himself wasn't all that for it, I suppose, but just didn't stand up to his handlers (I can buy that, he always seemed to be a "handled" sorta guy), but you can't say he wasn't a key to it, or put the blame on Donovan, who didn't create the situation.

It's soccer (not baseball ) so chemistry was huge. But chemistry in the sense that we knew what each other was doing on the field because we'd been playing together since we were 8, and not in the sense of liking each other off of it. Our coach picked the captains, but they weren't the actual leaders, and we had players questioning the coaches tactics multiple times (and threatening to kick him off the bus after one game). He moved our sweeper to striker, our 2nd striker to D-mid and switched our style to possession soccer - after 7 games where we scored 1 goal we told the coach we played better with our old style/positions and were going back to it - and we won our league (playing ugly, dirty, scrappy soccer).

So we dealt with those things - captains who weren't leaders, "management" we hated that caused turmoil (the AD kicked off our best striker and had a policy where any yellow card meant an automatic one-game suspension) and yet we managed to confront a coach and get our input heard. We had cliques and players that wouldn't talk off the field - shit, one player A had sex with another player B's girlfriend in B's parents bed during a house party that B threw for us. I don't think not picking up a check compares to that awkwardness.

So yes, Beckham doesn't come off well in the article, but he more or less seems completely passive and unsure of how to interact with/be a leader with that team off the pitch. I don't see how Donovan comes off any better constantly complaining about Beckham behind his back, rarely confronting him or management with his concerns. Especially when one of Donovan's main complaints is that Beckham wants to play in Europe - when Donovan made public his desire this winter for Bayern Munich to buy him. LD talks constantly about wanting the captain's armband, but he just tried to leave the team, and he shows no leadership qualities in that article. As the article makes abundantly clear, having the C isn't about being the best player.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I don't know much about all the politics being discussed, but I had a great time watching the game on Sunday with my two year old daughter. I jumped up several times during the game in excitement. My daughter clapped a lot and kept screaming "Go Royals!". Yeah, we need to work on sport recognition just a bit.

Hopefully the team builds on this effort. It was fun to see the U.S. playing for something big.

[ISiddiqui]

Regardless of the copy/pasting, I don't see how Donovan looks bad. Yes, he WAS disrespected by having his captaincy taken away like that. Yes, Beckham SHOULD have offered to pay the meal since he's making a shit-load more money than probably the entire rest of the team combined. Considering that it wasn't just Donovan who was pissy at Beckham's attitude (Chris Klein has never been considered a crybaby for one), it seems Donovan is speaking for the rest of the squad.

I can see where a text followed by a face-to-face attempt seems a bit silly, but from the face-to-face, it appears Beckham didn't want to talk about it and a text was the ONLY way he'd be able to confront it.

I'm actually impressed that Donovan managed to hold his tongue this long. And I think it was quite clear that Donovan, while not having the authority to act as captain (since he wasn't) was basically the closest thing the team had to one.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Yes, Beckham SHOULD have offered to pay the meal since he's making a shit-load more money than probably the entire rest of the team combined. Considering that it wasn't just Donovan who was pissy at Beckham's attitude (Chris Klein has never been considered a crybaby for one), it seems Donovan is speaking for the rest of the squad.

Chris Klein's quote was about how he thought Beckham paying for every meal would have made it harder for him to fit in. (MLS is much different than the other 4 pro leagues because even MinSal players there are making 250k+, but I don't see this argument in other sports with Kobe or A-Rod or Ovechkin or Nnamdi Asomugha.) And I just don't see how talking to the media about a current teammate could ever help team chemistry and solve issues. But whatever, different strokes for different folks.

[MrBug708]

Donovan was put into a no-win situation. Even thought he's arguably the best talent the US has ever produced, he's probably one of the most polarizing figure in American soccer. If he would have said anything, he would have ended up as the bad guy, no matter what. He went along with the program and is finally fed up and he's still the bad guy

[ISiddiqui]

I'd say, as of current (players like Adu and Altidore still have a ways to go), Donovan is unquestionably the best talent the US has ever produced.

And yes, there is really only so much someone should have to put up with and that's why I have respect for Donovan biting his tongue until he just can't take it anymore.

[MrBug708]

On a side note, is Castillo possibly the answer at Left back?

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

On a side note, is Castillo possibly the answer at Left back?

Not the same level of player Jermaine Jones or even Spector is, but our left backs are pretty hideous unless you count Boca there, and even he is slow for the position. Mexican league fans say Castillo is fairly offensive for a left back - even playing Left Mid a decent amount. He had a great year last year and was in and out of the lineup this year, but he's getting loaned back to his old coach so hopefully he shows his old form. Depending on health and the matchup, Spector-Demerit-Onyewu-Boca or Spector-Boca-Onyewu-Castillo should be our best backline. The other wildcard I could see is Cherundolo at RB and Spector at LB. Demerit's a fine backup and the flavor of the month, but he seemed to be straddling the line (and some players) inside the box during the Confed Cup, and I fear he'll give up a huge FK or PK if he's starting.

Bottom line, Castillo is young, has potential and may immediately be our best LB, but that says more about our weakness there than Castillo's caliber.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Not the same level of player Jermaine Jones or even Spector is, but our left backs are pretty hideous unless you count Boca there, and even he is slow for the position. Mexican league fans say Castillo is fairly offensive for a left back - even playing Left Mid a decent amount. He had a great year last year and was in and out of the lineup this year, but he's getting loaned back to his old coach so hopefully he shows his old form. Depending on health and the matchup, Spector-Demerit-Onyewu-Boca or Spector-Boca-Onyewu-Castillo should be our best backline. The other wildcard I could see is Cherundolo at RB and Spector at LB. Demerit's a fine backup and the flavor of the month, but he seemed to be straddling the line (and some players) inside the box during the Confed Cup, and I fear he'll give up a huge FK or PK if he's starting.

Bottom line, Castillo is young, has potential and may immediately be our best LB, but that says more about our weakness there than Castillo's caliber.

I was really impressed with Demerit. I thought he played stellar defense.

[whomario]

From what i´ve seen over the years (and i am a big fan of him since his ManU days) in Europe Beckham was allways considered a great teammate and great professional (i mean, he´s allways in amazing shape despite all that´s going on off the pitch) , basically never complained about anything and being a real team player.
He´s asked to play Right Defender knowing he might get exposed there ? No problem, coach. (Euro 2004)
He´s asked to play Defensive Midfield because others are even more talented offensively ? Yeah coach, that´s fine. (Real)

Donovan on the other hand was pretty much a crybaby when he was in Germany, fleeing back to the US not once but twice because he didn´t immeadiately crack the starting lineup ... I mean, they sign him to a long year contract and then allow him to go back to the US for 3 freaking years after he doesn´t make the team as an 18/19 year old (which is 100% normal), than he comes back in 2005 and jumps ship like 3 months later ...

But no way should a player like that be a captain in a MLS squad. I mean, that´s just so much of a gap in mentality and "knowledge" that you should do everything to make him mold in, not make him stand out even more.

[rowech]

Donovan's has never struck me as having the mental attitude to play in Europe. In the US, he seems to fit better. Beckham came to the US to be exposed to Hollywood. (along with his wife) He did not come to play soccer as a first priority.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by rowech

He did not come to play soccer as a first priority.

considering that he did a pretty good job though, didn´t he ? (haven´t seen many games, just judging from general reports)
That´s allways been the case. I honestly think he became the best player possible for his talent, even with the off-court schedule. (i mean, he was allways top notch in categories related to practice and not just natural talent, like his fitness level)
I mean, the guy goes to "Hollywood" with even more things outside of soccer and plays on a bit lower level and then comes to Europe in really great shape. Can´t ask for anything more. Never had a coach that didn´t love his work ethic and fitness, too.
For all i care it´s totally a players´ own business what he does outside the field as long as it doesn´t affect him on the court.

[Passacaglia]

Did he even become any more famous as a result of coming here, anyway?

[rowech]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Did he even become any more famous as a result of coming here, anyway?

No...which is why I think he wants to go back. I'm also not sure how much was about his wife getting into movies as well.

As for him being so good in the USA, he's a world-class player for one of the biggest soccer countries in the world and he comes to the US where the national league is just crappy soccer.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by rowech

I was really impressed with Demerit. I thought he played stellar defense.

I think it was more a case of low expectations. He was responsible for 1, arguably 2, goals in the Italy game (the 1st Rossi goal he probably should have stepped up on, but it's somewhat understandable he gave up the 30 yard shot), and he actually gave up on the last one after getting beat to the end line by Pirlo. Then almost every free kick and corner he was bear hugging a guy and pulling him down in the box in the corner of the screen. He got away with it this tournament, but it will catch up with him at some point.

I like him at #3 on the depth chart behind Onyewu and Bocanegra, although I wouldn't mind seeing Marshall and Parkhurst get some time partnered with Onyewu.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by whomario

From what i´ve seen over the years (and i am a big fan of him since his ManU days) in Europe Beckham was allways considered a great teammate and great professional (i mean, he´s allways in amazing shape despite all that´s going on off the pitch) , basically never complained about anything and being a real team player.
He´s asked to play Right Defender knowing he might get exposed there ? No problem, coach. (Euro 2004)
He´s asked to play Defensive Midfield because others are even more talented offensively ? Yeah coach, that´s fine. (Real)

Donovan on the other hand was pretty much a crybaby when he was in Germany, fleeing back to the US not once but twice because he didn´t immeadiately crack the starting lineup ... I mean, they sign him to a long year contract and then allow him to go back to the US for 3 freaking years after he doesn´t make the team as an 18/19 year old (which is 100% normal), than he comes back in 2005 and jumps ship like 3 months later ...

But no way should a player like that be a captain in a MLS squad. I mean, that´s just so much of a gap in mentality and "knowledge" that you should do everything to make him mold in, not make him stand out even more.

Did you bother reading the article?

[Oilers9911]

Beckham has played for the biggest clubs in the world. Played with players with the biggest egos in the world and everywhere he has played his teammates have loved him. Said nothing but Beckham is a model teammate and a good guy. So now Landon Donavon....Landon Friggin Donavon has the balls to come out in the media and rip on him like this? Please. Go bitch to Beckham via text message again Landy. Maybe a Facebook message or Twitter would be better.

[ISiddiqui]

Wasn't just Landon - from the article. He's just the biggest star in US soccer, so of course Wahl is going to center on LD's take.

[BishopMVP]

At least somebody agrees with me

"I'm not going to apologize for the way I felt," Donovan told the LA Times. "What I feel badly about is that I should have been a man and told David how I felt as opposed to telling a reporter.