(Sports Discussion) Biggest rivalries?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Even though I always enjoy watching UGA lose, it never really was something I was passionate about. In general the "rivalry" between GT and UGA was simply limited to us making fun of their academic standards with various witty jokes, and I'm not sure what their jokes about us would be.. but that was about it. Auburn-Alabama definitely seemed the biggest passionate rivalry when it came to college sports in the area.

Lest there be any misunderstanding about what I meant though, make no mistake, I'd still passionately root for UGA j.v. water polo to finish third in a three way match against the Al-Qaida Attackers & the North Korea Nutjobs, so it's not as though there's any shortage of hatred there afaic. But it's amped up another level in my experience when you get to Alabama/Auburn, those people would burn down each others houses in the middle of the night (after barricading the doors to prevent escape) if not for the fear of being caught.

[Alan T]

One of the things I notice with national level rivalries, often times one of the teams involved is someone that "everyone" hates. For instance, the Yankees are popular to hate on due to their mad spending and longevity of success, so people around the country started rooting for the Red Sox to be the David to the Yankees Goliath. That has somewhat lessened the past 10 years however as the Red Sox have started to spend more than everyone else not the Yankees and have had more success than the Yankees for the past 10 years.

In the case of UNC/Duke, Duke is a team that I swear everyone hates. (maybe just everyone in the ACC at least) So encouraging the UNC/Duke rivalry in a way for many people is a best attempt for a team to destroy Duke. (Even though historically UNC has had more success than Duke, Duke seems to be more hated).

It seems where rivalries that don't have that lightning rod just don't see as much in the way of national coverage. For instance I am full aware of the longstanding Cubs vs Cards rivalry, but for people not involved in that rivalry, it doesn't get as much interest simply because neither the Cubs nor the Cards are a team that anyone hates. Perhaps back in the 80s it might have been different as the Cards have been one of the most successful teams in history, while the Cubs are a team that everyone feels sorry for, I don't see that as being as much a big deal these days in attracting "Cards haters".

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I think you and Ronnie should create your own 'biggest HS rivalries' thread at this point. You're obviously taking the argument to a ridiculous extreme at this point. Ronnie's attempting to minimize the MU/KU rivalry as legitimate in this discussion as was obvious by his initial response.

Just curious, but you are discounting anyone else's passion for their own rivalry. I can just as easily point to your own ignorance about not experiencing other school's rivalries because of your own bubble. There are different factors to take into what someone puts into it. Mizzou-KU is a pretty big rivalry for basketball, but if you asked anyone what they thought of the football rivalry, I'd say that it would be slightly ahead of maybe a UCLA-Stanford rivarly for football.

I have never seen two sides hate each other more then Arizona-ASU. The polarization of their fan base is a sight to behold. For all of our history, UCLA really has no true rival in basketball. Maybe the fan bases of Kentucky and North Carolina. And that generally boils down to Sam Gilbert

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I think you and Ronnie should create your own 'biggest HS rivalries' thread at this point. You're obviously taking the argument to a ridiculous extreme at this point. Ronnie's attempting to minimize the MU/KU rivalry as legitimate in this discussion as was obvious by his initial response.

Listen, I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings. Despite living in New England, I know people who are into Michigan/OSU, Duke/UNC, Texas/OK, Florida/FSU, and other college rivalries. MU/KU seems pretty far down the list to me. If this thread were MBBF's biggest rivalries, then you would have me dead to rights.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

On the other hand, spleen, the rest of MLB fans couldn't give two shits about Cards/Cubs or Giants/Dodgers.

Football and CBB are different matters.

Yeah, but a lot of MLB fans could give two shits about Yankees/Red Sox even when it's shoved down our throats. Or, hell, because it's shoved down our throats. I know I'm in the minority, but I'm definitely not alone. I didn't care about the Yankees-Red Sox game on MLBN this week because if I wanted to see that, I could turn on ESPN or Fox any time. But two of the first three weeks of the season, I was all over the Brewers-Giants and Blue Jays-Twins games because we *never* get to see those teams unless they're playing one of the 4 or 5 "marque" teams.

SI

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Yes, but those aren't rivalries.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Radii

I agree with this. The top college rivalries blow away anything we're discussing in this thread IMO, the great college rivalries have games nearly every year that are meaningful for 50+ years. Parity in the pros makes this nearly impossible.

I don't think it's parity but I agree 100% that college rivalries blow away pro ones. I think it has to do with the feeling of ownership over your college team as you went there and invested far more time and money there than you did at any professional team at an impressionable time in your life and you were willing to pick up a nice "hate" for your rival. Not only that, but you were part of a group of maybe 50K students at most at the time which you share your team with rather than a city of 5M or whatever. People just feel closer to their schools.

SI

[Huckleberry]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

As much as I'd like to say GT/UGA is as pronounced as any, I really think the pure unabashed hatred crown might still rest with Alabama/Auburn (although there might be something in Texas that could contend), it borders on psychotic how much seems to be defined by your allegiance to one or the other when those two are involved.

Texas/Oklahoma

Texas A&M is Texas' second biggest rival, certainly in football. It drives the Aggies nuts, too, for the record.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Oilers9911

Rangers-Celtic
Lazio-Roma
Fenerbahce-Galatasary
and so on and so forth.

None of the rivalries previously names can get you killed if you walk around in the wrong colours. European football rivalries make North American rivalries look like church picnics.

My family and I were in Istanbul in 1993 when 2 of the 3 big teams were playing (I think Besiktas is the other) and it we didn't know what was going on. It was like a riot had broken out in the streets. Only later did we find out it was "just" a football match

SI

[Noop]

Alabama/Auburn
UNC/Duke
Michigan/Ohio State

I am sure soccer has some intense rivalries as well.

[jbergey22]

Yeah Im really not sure how Mizz/KU get brought into this discussion. I can think of atleast 3 rivalries in the Big 12 alone that would seem to be bigger than Mizz/KU.

Nebraska/Oklahoma
Texas/Oklahoma
Colorado/Nebraska

Id put Mizz/KU on the same line as Oklahoma St/Oklahoma and the Aggies/Horns

Im a gopher fan but wouldnt dream of trying to list Gophers/Badgers or Gophers/Hawkeyes as one of the greatest rivalries in college football.

[Galaxy]

Toronto-Montreal in the NHL. (Calgary-Edmonton?)

College: Alabama/Auburn, UNC/Duke, Michigan/Ohio State, UCLA/USC.

NBA: Lakers-Celtics.

Baseball: Yankees-Sox and LA-SF.

[Huckleberry]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Yeah Im really not sure how Mizz/KU get brought into this discussion. I can think of atleast 3 rivalries in the Big 12 alone that would seem to be bigger than Mizz/KU.

Nebraska/Oklahoma
Texas/Oklahoma
Colorado/Nebraska

Id put Mizz/KU on the same line as Oklahoma St/Oklahoma and the Aggies/Horns

Im a gopher fan but wouldnt dream of trying to list Gophers/Badgers or Gophers/Hawkeyes as one of the greatest rivalries in college football.

To be fair, the antipathy factor is much greater in MU/KU than any of those other than Texas/Oklahoma, IMO. The problem is that the two schools are historically fairly inept at football and basketball is one-sided in terms of championships. The two schools definitely hate each other and it's a great rivalry for the students, alumni, players, and staffs.



Bleeding Kansas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

Bleeding Kansas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes, folks, this is what it still looks like between, say, Philadelphia, and California, even today. I present to you "The midwest", complete with tornadoes, wagon trains, and crazy John Brown!



SI

[Radii]

Well when I posted last night people were only discussing pro rivalries so i obviously didn't say anything about my obvious choice for favorite/biggest rivalry.

IMO UNC/Duke basketball is the perfect storm for the perfect rivalry. The two schools are 8 miles apart. The students(and often the players) go to the same restaurants, clubs, barbers, etc. They intermingle like no other top rivals on a daily basis. UNC-Chapel Hill is an excellent public university, Duke is an excellent private university, which generates a good bit of a common man vs the elite type of atmosphere, at least from the Carolina fan perspective


But the biggest thing is simply success. These two schools have had sustained success for an incredibly long amount of time. The games have national importance more frequently and over a longer period of time than any other rivalry. This was my point about how pro rivalries cannot hold up, what SI said about the feeling of ownership involved w/ college sports tops pro sports in most cases is very true, but there is simply no pro rivalry that has sustained success on both sides the way the top college rivalries have had, and a lull of a decade when one or both teams are simply not good really hurts a rivalry.

And in this particular one:

The last time when neither was ranked in either polls was February 25, 1955 when Duke (ranked as high as #17 earlier in the season) beat North Carolina (unranked all year). Seriously, how ridiculous is that? One of these two teams has been ranked every single meeting in either the AP or Coaches/UPI poll for the last 54 years.

# North Carolina has been ranked in the AP poll in 102 of the last 124 matchups. Duke was ranked in 79 of those 124 match-ups. Duke and North Carolina have met 66 times when both teams were ranked in the Top 25, with the series record at 34-32 for North Carolina.


The ACC was formed in 1953:

ACC Regular Season Championships

* North Carolina - 27 (1st)
* Duke - 18 (2nd)

ACC Tournament Championships

* Duke - 17 (T-1st)
* North Carolina - 17 (T-1st)

Duke and North Carolina have combined to win 79% of the conference's regular season titles and 58% of the tournament titles since the ACC's founding in 1953.


And of course that would be a great regional rivalry regardless of what has happened on a national scale, but we've got that too:

NCAA Final Fours

* North Carolina - 18 (1st all-time)
* Duke - 14 (3rd all-time)

NCAA Tournament Championships

* North Carolina - 5 (tied for 3rd all-time)
* Duke - 3 (tied for 5th all-time)


Additionally, UNC is #2 in all time wins in NCAA Basketball history, Duke is #4.


Duke won their first national title in 1991. Since 1991 Duke and UNC have won 6 of the 19 national championships. One of the two has been in the final four in 18 of the last 24 years, with both making it in 1991.


Take two schools 8 miles apart, make them great natural rivals, make them the most dominant schools in their conference over a half-century by an absurd margin over anyone else in the league, make them the #1 and #2 programs on a national scale by any measure of success during most of our lifetime's, and make them 2 of the top 6 programs in the history of the sport(without trying to argue eras or who is #1, the top 6 seem unable to be questioned IMO, Kentucky, Kansas, UCLA, Indiana, Duke, Carolina in some order), and you have a rivalry like no other.

[jbergey22]

Hard to argue with NC/Duke

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Yeah, but a lot of MLB fans could give two shits about Yankees/Red Sox even when it's shoved down our throats. Or, hell, because it's shoved down our throats. I know I'm in the minority, but I'm definitely not alone. I didn't care about the Yankees-Red Sox game on MLBN this week because if I wanted to see that, I could turn on ESPN or Fox any time. But two of the first three weeks of the season, I was all over the Brewers-Giants and Blue Jays-Twins games because we *never* get to see those teams unless they're playing one of the 4 or 5 "marque" teams.

SI

I think you're pretty extreme here SI; you've made it abundantly clear you dislike anything to do with the coastal elites. I enjoy Yanks-Red Sox; its far more interesting to me than watching a Pirates-Brewers game, for example. It gets overhyped because it sells; we know this.

Edit: to be clear, its frustrating when the first 20 min of BBTN is about the Yankees backup C while some other team is throwing a no-hitter, but overall, and I bet JIMGA can confirm, the ratings bear out far more on that one.

[Wolfpack]

Originally Posted by Radii

Take two schools 8 miles apart, make them great natural rivals, make them the most dominant schools in their conference over a half-century by an absurd margin over anyone else in the league, make them the #1 and #2 programs on a national scale by any measure of success during most of our lifetime's, and make them 2 of the top 6 programs in the history of the sport(without trying to argue eras or who is #1, the top 6 seem unable to be questioned IMO, Kentucky, Kansas, UCLA, Indiana, Duke, Carolina in some order), and you have a rivalry like no other.

Um, NC State, their fans, their 10 ACC championships and their two national titles (one less than hallowed Duke) beg to differ.

And to the mention earlier that Duke is the most hated team in the Duke-UNC rivalry, you don't live here. North Carolinians who are not fan of either Duke (you have to look to find them) or Carolina hate Duke, but absolutely loathe Carolina. Don't get me wrong, Carolina by far has the largest support base in the state, but that also leads to it being the most hated (Carolina's fanbase is just about the worst for having a percentage that has absolutely no interest in the school aside from the basketball program). Duke can be hated, but it's tempered somewhat because they all retreat back to New Jersey after graduating, but Carolina and their fans are a permanent blight on our fair landscape.

[Huckleberry]

I think some of you are associating the national impact, coverage, and ratings of rivalry games far more with the inherent quality of the rivalry than you should be. Lots of these have the national impact, coverage, and ratings only because the teams are good. Nobody gave two shits about the Yankees/Red Sox rivalry in 1992 because the teams sucked.

Now is where we get into semantics, but to me being a "big" rivalry has nothing to do with being an "important" rivalry. That's why I think Missouri/Kansas justifiably belongs in this conversation. That is a big rivalry.

[SackAttack]

So would anybody care to address the radio guy's statement that "The Yankees wake up each morning with one goal in mind - beat the Red Sox"?

Whether or not it's a great rivalry, I think that line is a pile of shit, and that's what prompted the rivalry discussion between me and Foz in the first place - that while it may be a great rivalry, it's not *that* kind of a rivalry...which, IMO, Dodgers/Giants and Mizzou/Kansas, while they may not be classically great rivalries, ARE those kind of down-and-dirty (root for them to finish third in a three-way with Al-Qaeda and North Korea situation, as Jon said) sort of rivalries.

[Wolfpack]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

So would anybody care to address the radio guy's statement that "The Yankees wake up each morning with one goal in mind - beat the Red Sox"?

Whether or not it's a great rivalry, I think that line is a pile of shit, and that's what prompted the rivalry discussion between me and Foz in the first place - that while it may be a great rivalry, it's not *that* kind of a rivalry...which, IMO, Dodgers/Giants and Mizzou/Kansas, while they may not be classically great rivalries, ARE those kind of down-and-dirty (root for them to finish third in a three-way with Al-Qaeda and North Korea situation, as Jon said) sort of rivalries.

If they don't care about beating Boston, then are the Yankees without a rival (i.e. someone who they do care about beating)? Or is everybody else just annoying gnats to them? I could see that being so because they have so many championships, but I also could see it the other way for while the institutional memory between the Yankees and Red Sox is long and much more in favor of the Yankees, the short-term memory (the collective experience of the players currently playing) has the Red Sox ahead in recent years and therefore the Yankees do need to wake up thinking about how to beat the Red Sox. Perhaps that is the source of the thought, not that it's a loathing of the other side, but simply how to beat a team that's had a great deal of recent success against the Yankees.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Wolfpack

Um, NC State, their fans, their 10 ACC championships and their two national titles (one less than hallowed Duke) beg to differ.

fair enough, but NC State has disappeared for too long to be in the equation sadly. I loved hating Jim Valvano in the 80s, but its just pity now for the Wolfpack. I would love to change that again But we've had that conversation a number of times before.

And to the mention earlier that Duke is the most hated team in the Duke-UNC rivalry, you don't live here. North Carolinians who are not fan of either Duke (you have to look to find them) or Carolina hate Duke, but absolutely loathe Carolina.

Absolutely, and proud of it for the most part. I look forward to recent trends continuing and causing national hatred of North Carolina increasing again

[Huckleberry]

Originally Posted by Radii

fair enough, but NC State has disappeared for too long to be in the equation sadly. I loved hating Jim Valvano in the 80s, but its just pity now for the Wolfpack. I would love to change that again But we've had that conversation a number of times before.




Absolutely, and proud of it for the most part. I look forward to recent trends continuing and causing national hatred of North Carolina increasing again

We fans of dominant state schools know the feeling well.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

So would anybody care to address the radio guy's statement that "The Yankees wake up each morning with one goal in mind - beat the Red Sox"?

Wait a minute, somebody actually said that? Shit, that's just silly.

Outside of maybe game two or three of a heated series with some bad blood, I don't think there's five guys in all of pro sports who think like that about any team opponent today (obviously playoff series would be a technical exception since that's who you have to beat).

[Wolfpack]

Originally Posted by Radii

fair enough, but NC State has disappeared for too long to be in the equation sadly. I loved hating Jim Valvano in the 80s, but its just pity now for the Wolfpack. I would love to change that again But we've had that conversation a number of times before.

Of course. I was just commenting on the statement that UNC and Duke were so far above everyone else in the ACC over a half-century when it was more State and UNC until 1990. We packed a lot of living between 1954 and 1991.

It's actually more accurate (and painful) to say that it's just UNC and then flavor of the decade (State in the 1950s, Duke in the 1960s, State in the 1970s and early 1980s, Duke since then) that is the biggest rivalry. Naturally, there are those ankle biters from Maryland (Lefty years, early 2000s), Virginia (Ralph Sampson years), Wake (early 1960s, Tim Duncan and Chris Paul), and even Georgia Tech (early 1990s), but they've usually been third wheels at best in terms of the biggest basketball rivalries in the ACC (no matter what ESPN tried to do with the Duke-Maryland rivalry earlier this decade).

[Logan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Wait a minute, somebody actually said that? Shit, that's just silly.

Outside of maybe game two or three of a heated series with some bad blood, I don't think there's five guys in all of pro sports who think like that about any team opponent today (obviously playoff series would be a technical exception since that's who you have to beat).

Yeah, that's a gross idealization of what baseball players likely think. I'm sure the first thing the majority think about is "who is this chick and when will she get the hell out?" But to address Sack's point, I don't see why a Giant/Dodger would be feel more that way than a Yankee.

[jbergey22]

I think most of us will agree that top rivalries will change according to how many games the teams are winning.

Historic rivalries like Army/Navy can hold up no matter how many games them two teams are winning.

The Cowboys/Redskins rivalry of the early to mid 80s was epic in my mind possibly because I was just a kid at that point and them two teams seemed to just despise each other.

[Passacaglia]

I'll go with all the teams I'm a fan of and their rivals also.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by lighthousekeeper

wow 15,000 people? that's unmatched. Anywhere.

In an underexposed sport thats huge. It would mean 400,000 fans would should up for the Yanks/Red Sox. The rivalry is that big.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Michigan - Ohio State.

Former Ohio State running back Eddie George went to the Red River Shootout with former Sooner DB Roy Williams, and when asked by ABC sideline reporter Jack Arute to compare the rivalries, George said "Ohio State versus Michigan has nothing on this." George said he'd never seen anything like the atmosphere, intensity and electricity in the Cotton Bowl for this game.

[k0ruptr]

BCS Vs. Playoffs

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Historic rivalries like Army/Navy can hold up no matter how many games them two teams are winning.

Hmm, I'm not sure I'd say that's true at this point, not from a national standpoint.

I mean, TV ratings had fallen into the low 2's by 2007 (I can't seem find 2008 anywhere) and even if that's up against conference championship games, a true premier national rivalry ought to be putting up better numbers than the 2008 Sun Bowl where Oregon State beat Pitt 3-0 (which did the same rating of 2.2).

With Navy so dominating over the past several years, the game seems to have a lost a lot of its appeal.

[MrDNA]

Are we not bringing up NBA stuff? I could give two figs about basketball, but I immediately thought Lakers/Celtics.

The sports I do care about I am too into my own personal rivalries to be anything near objective. Damn lousy Mets-Steelers-Ravens!

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Oilers9911

Rangers-Celtic
Lazio-Roma
Fenerbahce-Galatasary
and so on and so forth.

None of the rivalries previously names can get you killed if you walk around in the wrong colours. European football rivalries make North American rivalries look like church picnics.

Milan derby?

derby d'Italia?

the Superclasico in Argentina?

Madrid derby?

El Clasico in Spain?

[Wolfpack]

Lakers-Celtics is the biggest in the NBA over its history, but it's been dormant until last year and even then, I don't think it carried the same sort of heft it did in the 1980s. It was very much about nostalgia rather than being a serious clash of rivals. If they had met again this year, then it'd be discussed ad nauseum that the rivalry was back in full swing with the new guys writing their own chapters into the book or some thing like that. It's also going to be very hard to rebuild this sort of rivalry as they only meet twice a year and it's much harder in a larger, more balanced league for them to meet in the finals as frequently as they did in the 1980s.


Heck, any game involving Kobe and Shaq since they split up has garnered more "rivalry" ink than any other matchup in the NBA in recent years.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by SackAttack
So would anybody care to address the radio guy's statement that "The Yankees wake up each morning with one goal in mind - beat the Red Sox"?

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Wait a minute, somebody actually said that? Shit, that's just silly.

That's not silly, it's a flat out lie. It is obvious the Yankees haven't given even the slightest thought to beating the Red Sox this season.

[Galaxy]

Am I alone that I just don't feel the heat of rivalries outside of college sports, (maybe hockey where you can express a physical side of the game more than other sports)?