Organic/Natural/Humane Foods and Products

[RainMaker]

Not that I've turned into a hippie or anything, but a recent health kick has really changed the outlook on what I put into my body. Being someone who used to drink a 2-liter of Diet Soda a day and eat foods loaded with chemicals and perservatives, changing my diet to a healthy one has made me feel great (could be a placebo effect, who knows?).

In any event, I've been doing a lot of research online and been trying to seperate fact from fiction on a lot of things. It seems everyone is on the "organic" kick but the classification seems to be real vague. I see a lot of household products advertised as "green" or "natural" but don't know if it really matters. I see animal products classified as "humane" but don't know if it's just a bullshit marketing gimmick.

Do any of you have any real information on this semi-growing movement? It seems most of the information online is put together by green groups that have a vested interest in believing that what they are doing is making a difference. My ultimate goal is to eat organic if it really has a health benefit. To use natural products if it really does help the environment. And to choose the humane products if it really is more humane. Seems it's near impossible to seperate fact form marketing.

[sabotai]

It's been awhile since I've looked into this kind of thing. As far as I can recall, for something to be labeled "organic", it has to be certified by the USDA. "Green", "Natural" (especially "natural"), "(insert scary sounding name) Free" are usually all bullshit. Not sure I would trust "humane" by itself either.

For meat, "grass fed" is usually a good thing, but you may have to do research into the company to see if it really is "grass fed" or not. "Free range" is good if it's true, but is another label that is sometimes correct, sometimes bullshit. For fish, you don't want fish raised in a fish farm. They lose a lot of their nutritional value.

[lungs]

I'm a dairy farmer, so I do know a lot of what goes on. I'll preface everything I say by noting that I'm not going to ultimately tell you what to put into your body. You all make your ultimate decisions and what you put into your body is your own choice.

Organic dairy products, quite frankly, are probably not what they are advertised as. There are plenty of honest organic farmers out there but it's one of those deals that a few rotten apples will spoil it. For example, organic dairy farms aren't supposed to give any antibiotics to their animals when they become sick. Aside from the issue of this not being humane as I feel all cows should be treated for sickness with the best possible treatments, many organic farmers will shuffle their sick cows into another herd that isn't organic and once the antibiotics clear up they will move them back to their organic herd. Completely against the rules, but there is no way to tell after antibiotic residues are cleared.

Those of us that are honest and aren't organic treat our animals with antibiotics and withhold the milk from the tank that will be sent off to the processors. Every single load of milk is tested for antibiotic residues and if there is a positive test, whoever is responsible for the tainted load has to pay for all the tainted milk. No milk with antibiotic residues enters the food supply, whether it's organic or non-organic.

Then there is the issue of growth hormone, or BGH as you all probably know it. This is an absolute joke. There is no way to test for it in the milk. I talked to a representative from Elanco (the company that markets the hormone) and they say that their sales of the hormone have increased on the west coast despite the fact that almost every processor does not accept milk from hormone injected cows. My neighbor was approached by his processor and told he had to sign the affidavit saying he will no longer use the hormone but at the same time there was a wink-wink agreement that it is nothing but a sham and he will continue to use it.

Either way, I've studied the science of bovine growth hormone in relation to human consumption and drew the conclusion that there are absolutely no negative affects as humans are unable to process bovine proteins. The cow naturally produces and excretes the same hormone in her milk. That's why it's impossible to test for. It's in all milk naturally.

Animal right groups will list a bunch of negative side affects of using growth hormone, but anybody worth his/her salt as a cow handler will not see these negative affects. To me, using the hormone is actually humane. When a cow's production drops below a certain point and she's not pregnant, she is no longer economically viable. Injecting hormone prolongs her level of viable production and allows her more chances to become pregnant.

My advice as a farmer would to not necessarily look specifically for organic dairy products but to avoid large processors such as Kraft. If you have a local cheese processor, get your cheese from them. It'll be better, and you'll be helping the smaller guys out instead of a company that will do anything in it's power to fuck the farmers up the ass. But when it comes to organic dairy products, I feel it's a big marketing ploy and the people aren't actually getting what they are expecting. They advertise organic as more humane but it's one of those deals that it'll vary from farm to farm. There are good organic farmers and there are bad organic farmers. There are good conventional farmers and there are bad conventional farmers.

Personally, I feel organic dairy products are overpriced for what you are actually getting. I'm not saying avoid organic dairy products altogether, because given the choice I'd eat a local organic product over some crap that Kraft puts out.

Oh... and do you know what free range chicken means? It means they open the door to the chicken house. 99% of the chickens choose to stay inside. Likewise, our cows are housed indoors and when it gets a little hot, they do a full sprint to get back inside where we have excellent cooling systems to regulate the temperature instead of leaving them out in the hot sun. Believe it or not, cows start getting heat stress when the temperature is greater than 68 degrees. The comfort zone is 41 to 68 degrees F.

[sterlingice]

(an aside)- lungs, I always love when you make a dairy post. I learn so much

SI

[RendeR]

That was very informative, thanks Lungs.

Sadly its not at all surprising that pretty much an entire industry is playing the "lets use the buzz words everyone wants to hear" marketing system.

[miked]

Originally Posted by lungs

Either way, I've studied the science of bovine growth hormone in relation to human consumption and drew the conclusion that there are absolutely no negative affects as humans are unable to process bovine proteins.

Interesting insight, but I highlighted this part because it is absolutely untrue. A lot of what we buy as researchers/clinicians is of bovine origin, for use in/on human cells. Many proteins from mammals share great homology (meaning they are highly similar) and several bovine proteins/enzymes have been used clinically. I'm not sure about BGH, but many growth hormones that are used are purified from animals such as cattle because they are present in large quantities and extremely difficult to make recombinantly as many require processing mechanisms shared by mammals but absent in bacteria and yeast.

[ISiddiqui]

Here is a great article on this from today's NY Times by Mark Bittman:

Eating Food That’s Better for You, Organic or Not - NYTimes.com

Some quotes:

The government’s organic program, says Joan Shaffer, a spokeswoman for the Agriculture Department, “is a marketing program that sets standards for what can be certified as organic. Neither the enabling legislation nor the regulations address food safety or nutrition.”
People don’t understand that, nor do they realize “organic” doesn’t mean “local.” “It doesn’t matter if it’s from the farm down the road or from Chile,” Ms. Shaffer said. “As long as it meets the standards it’s organic.”

Today, most farmers who practice truly sustainable farming, or what you might call “organic in spirit,” operate on small scale, some so small they can’t afford the requirements to be certified organic by the government.

But the organic food business is now big business, and getting bigger. Professor Howard estimates that major corporations now are responsible for at least 25 percent of all organic manufacturing and marketing (40 percent if you count only processed organic foods). Much of the nation’s organic food is as much a part of industrial food production as midwinter grapes, and becoming more so. In 2006, sales of organic foods and beverages totaled about $16.7 billion, according to the most recent figures from Organic Trade Association.

But the questions remain over how we eat in general. It may feel better to eat an organic Oreo than a conventional Oreo, but, says Marion Nestle, a professor at New York University’s department of nutrition, food studies and public health, “Organic junk food is still junk food.”

[lungs]

Originally Posted by miked

Interesting insight, but I highlighted this part because it is absolutely untrue. A lot of what we buy as researchers/clinicians is of bovine origin, for use in/on human cells. Many proteins from mammals share great homology (meaning they are highly similar) and several bovine proteins/enzymes have been used clinically. I'm not sure about BGH, but many growth hormones that are used are purified from animals such as cattle because they are present in large quantities and extremely difficult to make recombinantly as many require processing mechanisms shared by mammals but absent in bacteria and yeast.

My bad. That was poorly worded and absolutely wrong. I should have said that the specific proteins in this particular growth hormone are broken down by the acids in our stomachs.

Let me see if I can pull something off the internets to cite...

[lungs]

For fairness, here's the gray area when it comes to BGH. Note BST is the industry term for BGH to avoid any confusion:

Wikipedia:
Monsanto's studies show use of rBST in cows increases bovine insulin-like growth factor 1 in milk,[17] a structure that is identical in cows and humans.[18] Monsanto states that there is no danger of consuming milk or meat from cows treated by BST, and that the only difference between milk from supplemented cattle and unsupplemented cattle is the amount of IGF-1, though even these elevated levels are similar to levels found in milk from untreated cows. Further, the amount of IGF-1 consumed in milk is negligible compared to the amount produced in the body.[13]

The biggest issue is that a lot of the studies that were done were funded by Monsanto who obviously doesn't want their product to look bad.

Within the industry itself, the move toward BGH-free fluid milk has nothing to do with the safety of the product and everything to do with consumer demand, whether that demand is driven by something that is real or not. It's mostly a phenomenon on the east and west coasts. It's next to impossible on the east and west coast to find processors that will take milk from somebody that openly uses BGH. That's why I found it amusing that sales for the actual hormone have increased since this shift took place.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

(an aside)- lungs, I always love when you make a dairy post. I learn so much

SI

It's too easy to be misinformed so I almost feel obligated to share what I see/hear out there. It's also a constant learning process. Especially on how to care for the animals.

I learn something new every day. Just this morning we had a cow that had a very difficult time giving birth to a set of twins last night (they were all tangled up inside). Twins make things extremely difficult and I have a set protocol applied to all cows that have twins. When I was administering the second treatment, she started breathing heavily and twenty minutes later she was dead. I was doing the same thing I've done to hundreds of cows and have went over the minute details of the procedure with several different veterinarians. This case was probably one in a million but when you are dealing with a living, breathing animal anything can happen.

An animal rights activist may look and see a dead cow and scream bloody murder but I immediately talked with my vet about what I had done to see if there was any negligence and there was none whatsoever. Heck, without human intervention she would've been dead last night from her difficulties giving birth.

Anyway, I feel informing the public about what we do and being open about what we do is an important part of my job, even if it happens to take place on a message board about a football text sim.

[JediKooter]

I always equated organic with, "Hey, we can charge people more money for the same shit!"

[lungs]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

I always equated organic with, "Hey, we can charge people more money for the same shit!"

I will give them a lot of credit because they are doing a hell of a job marketing it.

[Telle]

From what I recall reading a few years ago, buying organic doesn't do much for your health but could do a lot for the environment. At least when it comes to produce, since that means no pesticides etc.

But it seems like really what your best bet is if you're concerned about the environment is to buy locally. Transporting goods long distances uses a lot of energy/fuel. Hit up your farmers markets.. buy in season.. etc.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Telle

From what I recall reading a few years ago, buying organic doesn't do much for your health but could do a lot for the environment. At least when it comes to produce, since that means no pesticides etc.

But it seems like really what your best bet is if you're concerned about the environment is to buy locally. Transporting goods long distances uses a lot of energy/fuel. Hit up your farmers markets.. buy in season.. etc.

This is pretty much spot on. Ogranic does mean no pesticides for produce, so that's really the main reason (if you want one) to buy organic. Organic processed foods are still organic processed foods.

Shopping/buying locally is really the best thing you can do. If you're concerned about the quality of the food, how it's grown, what's used to feed it/nurture it, the only way you'll ever know is if you know the person you're buying it from.

Lady H_B is a nutritionist and pretty much has become a hippy over the last year or so, so I get taught about a lot of this stuff.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by Telle

From what I recall reading a few years ago, buying organic doesn't do much for your health but could do a lot for the environment. At least when it comes to produce, since that means no pesticides etc.

But it seems like really what your best bet is if you're concerned about the environment is to buy locally. Transporting goods long distances uses a lot of energy/fuel. Hit up your farmers markets.. buy in season.. etc.

There is a tradeoff for organic farming. By not using herbicides or pesticides, they use a lot more fossil fuels tilling the fields more.

Also, a study done by Cornell investigates the environmental impact of using rBGH and finds that rBGH usage has a positive environmental impact. It makes sense too, as less cows producing more milk.

My area of expertise, so to say, is genetics. Currently on my own farm I'm developing hybrid cows that are more environmentally friendly through genetic selection. So far the results have been extremely promising from the actual studies, and simply looking at my own cows.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by lungs

I will give them a lot of credit because they are doing a hell of a job marketing it.

Absolutely.

[miked]

I do like seeing these insights as well, as we buy the Publix organic milk and I always wondered what I'm really getting. My wife loves the organic fruits/veggies, but we only buy things like apples and certain berries in season because she is scared of pesticide use. I always wonder if it' really better, but I'm guessing eating things that haven't been exposed to pesticides can't be worse for you.

What do you think about organic/antibiotic free meat? Muscle and fat store toxins (and growth factors, etc) longer than other areas...is there any benefit for the meat industry?

[ISiddiqui]

I can imagine that things like apples, where you eat the skin, and which are usually doused in pesticide, may be better organic. I get organic (fat-free) milk because I find that it actually tastes better than the non-organic skim. And, for some reason, has a longer shelf life.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by miked

I do like seeing these insights as well, as we buy the Publix organic milk and I always wondered what I'm really getting. My wife loves the organic fruits/veggies, but we only buy things like apples and certain berries in season because she is scared of pesticide use. I always wonder if it' really better, but I'm guessing eating things that haven't been exposed to pesticides can't be worse for you.

What do you think about organic/antibiotic free meat? Muscle and fat store toxins (and growth factors, etc) longer than other areas...is there any benefit for the meat industry?

I'm not really qualified to comment on organic meat production as I don't know a whole lot about it. But seeing what people in the dairy industry do to bastardize the spirit of the word 'organic', my confidence isn't necessarily the highest.

I always go for quality. I buy my meat from a local butcher that also owns the farms where the cattle are raised. They aren't organic but they are the best around. I'm guessing that a lot of times the best meat in the area will be organic. It's just that being organic doesn't make it better. What makes it better is the care put into the product.

I've railed on rBGH in this thread, but the cheese I swear by is from a local cheesemaker that doesn't use rBST milk. It's because he's one of the best damn cheesemakers around.

[sterlingice]

I just want to speak to "organic" produce in most grocery stores and, again, useful as always anecdotal evidence, so take with a boulder of salt. It always seems to me that the "organic produce" section has food that looks worse than in the rest of the sections (oh, and costs twice as much). Carrots aren't as crisp, lettuce is more wilty and brown, fruit is more bruised, etc. I'm not sure where the health value from eating that is to be gained.

SI

[PineTar]

I found this pretty interesting...

Organic Company Chart

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by lungs

It's too easy to be misinformed so I almost feel obligated to share what I see/hear out there. It's also a constant learning process. Especially on how to care for the animals.

I learn something new every day. Just this morning we had a cow that had a very difficult time giving birth to a set of twins last night (they were all tangled up inside). Twins make things extremely difficult and I have a set protocol applied to all cows that have twins. When I was administering the second treatment, she started breathing heavily and twenty minutes later she was dead. I was doing the same thing I've done to hundreds of cows and have went over the minute details of the procedure with several different veterinarians. This case was probably one in a million but when you are dealing with a living, breathing animal anything can happen.

An animal rights activist may look and see a dead cow and scream bloody murder but I immediately talked with my vet about what I had done to see if there was any negligence and there was none whatsoever. Heck, without human intervention she would've been dead last night from her difficulties giving birth.

Anyway, I feel informing the public about what we do and being open about what we do is an important part of my job, even if it happens to take place on a message board about a football text sim.

poor mommy-cow

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by lungs

Oh... and do you know what free range chicken means? It means they open the door to the chicken house. 99% of the chickens choose to stay inside.

That's one of the things I read about. To be certified "free range", the chicken simply has access to the outside. They open the door when the chicken is 5 weeks old, and slaughter them at 7 weeks, so even if they do go outside, which they rarely do, it hardly does any good. It's possible a local farm will have actual free range chickens, but you have to research and look around for them.

[sabotai]

dola,

Organic apples taste like dirt. I'll take my pesticide covered delicious ones.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by sabotai

That's one of the things I read about. To be certified "free range", the chicken simply has access to the outside. They open the door when the chicken is 5 weeks old, and slaughter them at 7 weeks, so even if they do go outside, which they rarely do, it hardly does any good. It's possible a local farm will have actual free range chickens, but you have to research and look around for them.

Do the chickens have large talons?

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

Do the chickens have large talons?

Do they have what?

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by sabotai

Do they have what?

Large talons.

[lordscarlet]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

I just want to speak to "organic" produce in most grocery stores and, again, useful as always anecdotal evidence, so take with a boulder of salt. It always seems to me that the "organic produce" section has food that looks worse than in the rest of the sections (oh, and costs twice as much). Carrots aren't as crisp, lettuce is more wilty and brown, fruit is more bruised, etc. I'm not sure where the health value from eating that is to be gained.

SI

Yes, because they aren't pumped up with artificial chemicals/etc to make them "look good." When you grow your own vegetables, they aren't all perfect. If you're buying local, organic produce you can't expect every piece to look perfect like they do from the chemically/genetically modified produce from the conglomerates.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

Large talons.

I don't understand a word you just said.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by sabotai

I don't understand a word you just said.

The defect in that one is bleach

[lungs]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

poor mommy-cow

Sad indeed. Freak incident. But I've got a happier freak incident from this afternoon. A pregnant cow started having her calf two months early this afternoon. 7 month pregnancy = she's aborting the calf. I was surprised as hell to reach in and have the feet move. I pulled the little thing out and it wasn't breathing. But I did my thing and got it breathing. This is next to impossible.

I'm not necessarily optimistic about it's chances, but we'll do everything we can.

I guess this isn't about organic foods but maybe it could fit into the humane foods aspect of the thread

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

The defect in that one is bleach

This tastes like the cow got into an onion patch.

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by lungs

I pulled the little thing out and it wasn't breathing. But I did my thing and got it breathing.

I am picturing a man in overalls giving a slime covered calf mouth to mouth, yelling "BREATH DAMMIT, BREATH!"

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by lungs

I'm a dairy farmer, so I do know a lot of what goes on. I'll preface everything I say by noting that I'm not going to ultimately tell you what to put into your body. You all make your ultimate decisions and what you put into your body is your own choice.

Organic dairy products, quite frankly, are probably not what they are advertised as. There are plenty of honest organic farmers out there but it's one of those deals that a few rotten apples will spoil it. For example, organic dairy farms aren't supposed to give any antibiotics to their animals when they become sick. Aside from the issue of this not being humane as I feel all cows should be treated for sickness with the best possible treatments, many organic farmers will shuffle their sick cows into another herd that isn't organic and once the antibiotics clear up they will move them back to their organic herd. Completely against the rules, but there is no way to tell after antibiotic residues are cleared.

Those of us that are honest and aren't organic treat our animals with antibiotics and withhold the milk from the tank that will be sent off to the processors. Every single load of milk is tested for antibiotic residues and if there is a positive test, whoever is responsible for the tainted load has to pay for all the tainted milk. No milk with antibiotic residues enters the food supply, whether it's organic or non-organic.

Then there is the issue of growth hormone, or BGH as you all probably know it. This is an absolute joke. There is no way to test for it in the milk. I talked to a representative from Elanco (the company that markets the hormone) and they say that their sales of the hormone have increased on the west coast despite the fact that almost every processor does not accept milk from hormone injected cows. My neighbor was approached by his processor and told he had to sign the affidavit saying he will no longer use the hormone but at the same time there was a wink-wink agreement that it is nothing but a sham and he will continue to use it.

Either way, I've studied the science of bovine growth hormone in relation to human consumption and drew the conclusion that there are absolutely no negative affects as humans are unable to process bovine proteins. The cow naturally produces and excretes the same hormone in her milk. That's why it's impossible to test for. It's in all milk naturally.

Animal right groups will list a bunch of negative side affects of using growth hormone, but anybody worth his/her salt as a cow handler will not see these negative affects. To me, using the hormone is actually humane. When a cow's production drops below a certain point and she's not pregnant, she is no longer economically viable. Injecting hormone prolongs her level of viable production and allows her more chances to become pregnant.

My advice as a farmer would to not necessarily look specifically for organic dairy products but to avoid large processors such as Kraft. If you have a local cheese processor, get your cheese from them. It'll be better, and you'll be helping the smaller guys out instead of a company that will do anything in it's power to fuck the farmers up the ass. But when it comes to organic dairy products, I feel it's a big marketing ploy and the people aren't actually getting what they are expecting. They advertise organic as more humane but it's one of those deals that it'll vary from farm to farm. There are good organic farmers and there are bad organic farmers. There are good conventional farmers and there are bad conventional farmers.

Personally, I feel organic dairy products are overpriced for what you are actually getting. I'm not saying avoid organic dairy products altogether, because given the choice I'd eat a local organic product over some crap that Kraft puts out.

Oh... and do you know what free range chicken means? It means they open the door to the chicken house. 99% of the chickens choose to stay inside. Likewise, our cows are housed indoors and when it gets a little hot, they do a full sprint to get back inside where we have excellent cooling systems to regulate the temperature instead of leaving them out in the hot sun. Believe it or not, cows start getting heat stress when the temperature is greater than 68 degrees. The comfort zone is 41 to 68 degrees F.

Thanks for the insight.

The antibiotics thing always seemed blown out of proportion to me since from what I gathered, the milk was tested for it. If it isn't in the milk, who cares?

My biggest reason for switching milk brands was humane treatment. I had seen and heard some gruesome stories about the bigger milk farms and how they treat their cows. I switched to a company called Grass Pointe Farms which I read was supposed to be very humane. They feed a grass diet and let the cows roam. They are also Wisconsin based and I like supporting the local guys too.

One question about milk. I used to be a drinker of the big companies like Dean for years. When I switched to some of the organic companies, it seems like the milk tastes better. If I drink a glass of Dean right now, it tastes watered down. Is there a difference process between companies? I know when I drink Oberweis milk (which is not organic), it tastes much better than Deans too. Why do the larger brands taste worse than the local, small guys?

[lungs]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Thanks for the insight.

The antibiotics thing always seemed blown out of proportion to me since from what I gathered, the milk was tested for it. If it isn't in the milk, who cares?

My biggest reason for switching milk brands was humane treatment. I had seen and heard some gruesome stories about the bigger milk farms and how they treat their cows. I switched to a company called Grass Pointe Farms which I read was supposed to be very humane. They feed a grass diet and let the cows roam. They are also Wisconsin based and I like supporting the local guys too.

One question about milk. I used to be a drinker of the big companies like Dean for years. When I switched to some of the organic companies, it seems like the milk tastes better. If I drink a glass of Dean right now, it tastes watered down. Is there a difference process between companies? I know when I drink Oberweis milk (which is not organic), it tastes much better than Deans too. Why do the larger brands taste worse than the local, small guys?

Honestly, when it comes to humane treatment and producing milk, it really doesn't matter if you are organic or non-organic. Cows that are not treated in a humane manner simply will not produce. There is a 100% correlation between how happy and comfortable the cows are and their level of production. Honestly, some of the larger farms may even have an advantage in this area due to specialization. Smaller farmers don't have the money to hire any help so they can be stretched pretty thin. They have to juggle crop production, the business aspects AND caring for the cows. Don't get me wrong, a lot of small farmers do just fine in all three areas but they have to work very hard.

On our farm I have almost no responsibilities in crop production and not an overwhelming amount on the business side. I'm 100% dedicated to taking care of the cows and the employees that help me take care of them. I could walk onto another farm that is not performing well and I guarantee you 90% of my suggestions for improvement would be on how to feed the cows better and improve their comfort.

I'll agree with you that Dean's milk tastes like shit. I have no idea why, but I definitely avoid it if I can. I usually just buy the store brand. I definitely noticed some funky flavors when I'd drink Dean's milk. Some gallons were OK though. But it was inconsistent. The differences between more local brands and big processor brands may be due to how they purchase their milk. Local brands will have a more consistent supply where they know exactly where it is coming from whereas large processors are likely buying on the open market where nobody knows where the hell it's coming from. I know the processor we sell our milk to (a swiss cheese maker) sells their excess on the fluid market to large companies.

[flere-imsaho]

As usual, I very much appreciate lungs' contribution to these kinds of threads. For me, however, the jury's still a bit "out" on rBST. I know EU studies found clearly higher rates of deleterious effects on the animals themselves (mastitis, decreased fertility, decreased mobility, etc...) and that bans worldwide (Canada, EU, Australia, NZ, Japan) are largely (or were initially) based on this evidence.

While effects on humans have been speculated, they've never been shown and/or proven under clinical conditions. Having said that, the clinical trial data is still not as comprehensive as for drugs intended directly for humans.

So, at the end of the day, what we're dealing with here is still somewhat of an unknown. I take lungs' point that in essence all that's happening is an increase of a natural process, with the output of natural substances, but it's my opinion that there's an insufficient testing base to completely rule out unintended consequences. Given separate research into IGF-1 and its link to cancer, that should be a concern. How much of a concern? Who knows.

The situation's similar for antibiotics. While there may be a testing regime for antibiotics and antibiotic residue in milk prior to human consumption, it's nowhere near as comprehensive as it could be. Numerous independent studies have shown consistent evidence of insufficient circumspection in testing regimes on pre-consumer milk.


Having said all that, the bottom-line comes down to knowing and trusting the producer of your food. I would completely trust product from lungs' farm, for instance, as I trust produce/meat/cheese from local farms of which I'm aware. But it is not realistic to expect every consumer to be able to do research on every product they purchase for consumption, which is why the FDA exists. Unfortunately the FDA is underfunded and understaffed and has to pick its battles, so we're left in an imperfect world where mistakes are going to happen and substances that maybe shouldn't be ingested are going to be consumed by humans.

Edit: I forgot to mention, but I think this was a large part of the initial point behind the "organic" movement and the "organic" certification. The idea was that if you cut out a lot of the "unknowns" from the supply chain, you'd end up with a product that actually is what it says it is. I think the key point is that "organic" hasn't really turned out to be the panacea its original proponents hoped it would.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by lungs

Sad indeed. Freak incident. But I've got a happier freak incident from this afternoon. A pregnant cow started having her calf two months early this afternoon. 7 month pregnancy = she's aborting the calf. I was surprised as hell to reach in and have the feet move. I pulled the little thing out and it wasn't breathing. But I did my thing and got it breathing. This is next to impossible.

I'm not necessarily optimistic about it's chances, but we'll do everything we can.

I guess this isn't about organic foods but maybe it could fit into the humane foods aspect of the thread

yay!!!!


It's the circle of life!!!

[lungs]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

As usual, I very much appreciate lungs' contribution to these kinds of threads. For me, however, the jury's still a bit "out" on rBST. I know EU studies found clearly higher rates of deleterious effects on the animals themselves (mastitis, decreased fertility, decreased mobility, etc...) and that bans worldwide (Canada, EU, Australia, NZ, Japan) are largely (or were initially) based on this evidence.

I'll pick this quote out, as I don't have any quibbles with the rest of your post.

The problem with the EU studies is they don't account for genetic degradation that has been going on for the longest time. To put it bluntly, breeding philosophies in dairy cattle have been so utterly stupid for the longest time that we've been breeding less healthy animals through inbreeding to make gains on other traits (many of which are just to make the cow more appealing to the owner's eye).

That's where what I mentioned earlier about my hybrid cows comes into play. My theories aren't even close to mainstream but they are beginning to gain traction. What we've been doing has been breeding for sheer production volume for decades. You can't really blame the farmer because that's what the "experts" have been telling us that whole time. There is emphasis on keeping animals' blood pure and even blatant inbreeding in the process. And now we've got some sort of mutant animal that produces a shit ton of milk but doesn't haven't the body or the metabolic capability to maintain such production for as long as a cow should live or has lived in the past.

I consider myself to be a pretty decent handler of my cattle and when I have cows dying that I've tried my damned hardest to save and they die anyway, I almost pull my hair out. Then I went through some genetics classes in college and the answer became painfully obvious. Crossbreed!

Not only that, in other parts of the world (mainly Scandinavia and France) they haven't been applying this asinine breeding philosophy and actually do have cows that have been bred for health traits and general longevity.

Anyway, we started injecting these outside genetics into our herd several years ago and the results have been fantastic. Some people flat out called me a fucking moron for even entertaining such an idea much less acting on it. Those people are still dealing with the same problems they've been dealing with while I've improved every single trait that the EU study found to be a problem with rBGH.

I don't doubt that rBGH does exasperate those problems. But if the industry would take their collective heads out of their asses there is a clear workaround to those issues. I guess I can look at it as having a competitive advantage especially in this economic climate. But it will benefit the industry as a whole in the long run.

Honestly I could go on and on about this, but you see it anywhere humans selectively mate animals. Dogs? Horses? It's the same bullshit. Inbreeding is one of the most inhumane things a person can do to an animal yet the practice is widespread and the issues it creates are swept under the rug.

[flere-imsaho]

That's a great point, and a great explanation. I do applaud you for what you're doing. The industrialization of agriculture and animal husbandry in the 20th century did a lot of stupid things, but key amongst these was to forgo genetic diversity in pursuit of maximum immediate return, which in turn led to the development of artificial/synthetic compounds to clear up the problems to this approach. I'm glad to see you and other farmers (such as those experimenting with "heirloom" varieties of, well, anything) going in this direction.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

I just want to speak to "organic" produce in most grocery stores and, again, useful as always anecdotal evidence, so take with a boulder of salt. It always seems to me that the "organic produce" section has food that looks worse than in the rest of the sections (oh, and costs twice as much). Carrots aren't as crisp, lettuce is more wilty and brown, fruit is more bruised, etc. I'm not sure where the health value from eating that is to be gained.

SI

Pretty does not equal Healthy. The best looking fruit and veggies don't mean they are better for you.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by lungs

There is a 100% correlation between how happy and comfortable the cows are and their level of production.

Happy cows come from California! MOOOOOO!

[lungs]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

Happy cows come from California! MOOOOOO!

I'm not sure happy farmers come from California right now

[sterlingice]

Lungs- where is your farm? Just curious if any of us are near where we could help out your product

SI

[lungs]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Lungs- where is your farm? Just curious if any of us are near where we could help out your product

SI

Our millk goes to Illinois and is made into swiss cheese under either the Stockton Cheese or Brewster Dairy label. Honestly, I've never even seen my cheese where I live, but we get it delivered from the plant.

The other plant is in Ohio. I really am not sure where this all ends up. I sure don't see it in stores around us. But the company we sell to is the largest swiss cheese producer in the USA. But they specialize in swiss so they don't deserve the evil big processor label like Kraft would.

We used to sell our milk to an Italian cheese company run by the mafia. Unfortunately the mafia can't use their mafia tactics and we found a better option

edit: Didn't even mention where my farm was.... about 30 minutes from Madison, WI.

[Rich1033]

Great stuff. Im really going to make more of an effort to seek out and buy local products.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by lungs

Our millk goes to Illinois and is made into swiss cheese under either the Stockton Cheese or Brewster Dairy label. Honestly, I've never even seen my cheese where I live, but we get it delivered from the plant.

The other plant is in Ohio. I really am not sure where this all ends up. I sure don't see it in stores around us. But the company we sell to is the largest swiss cheese producer in the USA. But they specialize in swiss so they don't deserve the evil big processor label like Kraft would.

We used to sell our milk to an Italian cheese company run by the mafia. Unfortunately the mafia can't use their mafia tactics and we found a better option

edit: Didn't even mention where my farm was.... about 30 minutes from Madison, WI.

I will pick up those brands next time I'm at the store. Are they sold at most chains or specialty stores like Trader Joes?

[lungs]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I will pick up those brands next time I'm at the store. Are they sold at most chains or specialty stores like Trader Joes?

If it's around, it'd probably be at a grocery store. But honestly I have no idea how wide their distribution network is. Probably your non Wal-Mart grocery stores would be the best bet.

I'm guessing I don't get it in Wisconsin because it's friggin Wisconsin. Why would we import Illinois cheese? I feel dirty even selling good quality milk to Illinois

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by lungs

I'm guessing I don't get it in Wisconsin because it's friggin Wisconsin. Why would we import Illinois cheese? I feel dirty even selling good quality milk to Illinois

LMAO

[finketr]

Originally Posted by lungs

Our millk goes to Illinois and is made into swiss cheese under either the Stockton Cheese or Brewster Dairy label. Honestly, I've never even seen my cheese where I live, but we get it delivered from the plant.

Great, I'll be looking for these brands next time I'm at the store.

Originally Posted by lungs

I'm guessing I don't get it in Wisconsin because it's friggin Wisconsin. Why would we import Illinois cheese? I feel dirty even selling good quality milk to Illinois

On second thought.