Black Friday ....Wal-Mart Employee Trampled to Death by Customers

[SportsDino]

Crowd Control for the Crazy:

Find the biggest guy heading toward you and slam into him. He'll bump the people behind him. If you get it early enough (i.e. before the back of the crowd has momentum) you can probably stop most Americans who are not brain-dead.

Not sure if it really works, but the only time I ever went to Black Friday shopping it stopped a door rush. A little old lady who had been waiting at the front got knocked sideways by some crazed soccer mom and sort of tipped sideways sliding to the ground. I was a few spaces behind, walking calmly because I thought it was stupid to get all frantic over cheap supermarket junk.

Thought for half a second, realized that as more people got to the open space beyond the chokepoint the faster the crowd would gain average speed... so I almost body checked some big dude there with his wife (the lady was trying to drag him into a run). He set his feet and the whole crowd pretty much went bump.

Before he killed me I asked him if he could help me with old lady, he says yes, we go help her on her feet and over to the side... whole traffic interruption lasted about a minute max and no one was injured. If anything, people got in the store faster because they didn't have to watch out for someone in the middle of the way.

I of course got really dirty looks and complaints, especially from ladies, but I gave them the highly effective 'Look of Death' and they ran off to buy all of the whatsits I was there to buy. I ended up buying a real brand for more and making up a story that I got a substitute for the same price deal (the gizmo I bought lasted several years without issue I might mention, whereas every off brand thing my mother lugged home from Black Friday since the dawn of time has broken in 6-18 months).

Probably not as crazy a situation though as that mall scene, but even though I make it a habit to avoid really stupid setups like that, I'd like to think if I was stuck in one I would try to do something. At the very least I would change my priorities from 'shop shop shop' to 'survival/help others'. The problem at this walmart is that many people seem to leave that 'shop like an idiot' switch turned on and make the problem even worst.

[Oilers9911]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

So you are saying a business could have taken common sense approaches to prevent this sort of thing and didn't and the fact we are calling them on it is a sign of societal downward spiral?! I think its a sign that we as a society are starting to mature. In the past, we may have let Walmart off the hook.

You must be kidding. Let's see, guy gets trampled to death while he is at work. Is he a police officer during a riot? Is there a sudden panic because of a fire, or a bomb threat, or a guy with a gun? No. He was trampled to death because the scumbags that trampled him wanted to save $10 on a video game, or $5 on a DVD, or $100 on a TV.

Could Wal-Mart have done a better job at preparing for the crowd? Sure. But to blame the store because a bunch of assholes had to have what they wanted right that second is completely assinine.

[Sgran]

Back in 1990 I went to see Rush in Alpine Valley, Wisconsin. We parked the car and started walking to the gates, which were about to open. It was general admission lawn seating for most of the crowd, so people were waiting to get in. They opened the gates and the crowd starting pushing forward. The problem was that you had to wind around a fence, so the only thing in front of most people was a sturdy fence. Soon I was lifted off my feet by the pressing crowd (which was completely white, by the way) and the air was being pushed out of my lungs. People in the back didn't know what was happening; they just wanted a good seat on the lawn. I was scared for my life and powerless to do anything. Eventually the organizers got around the back of the crowd and pulled people back.
Now, whether or not you blame the people in the back for pushing forward (i personally wanted to strangle someone), the responsibility for controlling the crowd has to rest with the organizers. They created the situation and they alone had the authority to keep people from endangering others.
When Walmart puts an ad in the paper to sell a laptop for 200 bucks, they know full well that most people will arrive too late to get one of the few units available. Walmart just wants to get active shoppers in their store and hopes they'll get away with the old bait and switch. They have manufactured hysteria and must take responsiblity for it by having the proper security measures in place. Am I saying shoppers are free from responsibility for their own actions? Of course not. But if amusement parks can keep hundreds of people in line for a popular ride, then Walmart should be able to do the same.

[lordscarlet]

Originally Posted by Sgran

Back in 1990 I went to see Rush in Alpine Valley, Wisconsin. We parked the car and started walking to the gates, which were about to open. It was general admission lawn seating for most of the crowd, so people were waiting to get in. They opened the gates and the crowd starting pushing forward. The problem was that you had to wind around a fence, so the only thing in front of most people was a sturdy fence. Soon I was lifted off my feet by the pressing crowd (which was completely white, by the way) and the air was being pushed out of my lungs. People in the back didn't know what was happening; they just wanted a good seat on the lawn. I was scared for my life and powerless to do anything. Eventually the organizers got around the back of the crowd and pulled people back.
Now, whether or not you blame the people in the back for pushing forward (i personally wanted to strangle someone), the responsibility for controlling the crowd has to rest with the organizers. They created the situation and they alone had the authority to keep people from endangering others.
When Walmart puts an ad in the paper to sell a laptop for 200 bucks, they know full well that most people will arrive too late to get one of the few units available. Walmart just wants to get active shoppers in their store and hopes they'll get away with the old bait and switch. They have manufactured hysteria and must take responsiblity for it by having the proper security measures in place. Am I saying shoppers are free from responsibility for their own actions? Of course not. But if amusement parks can keep hundreds of people in line for a popular ride, then Walmart should be able to do the same.

Impossible. This only happens with those ignorant black folk.




:eyeroll:

[SportsDino]

For the record I only saw this with a crowd of mostly white people, and I'm doubtful where they were on the white trash spectrum if you are going to use wealth as a metric. Only thing I can say is consistent is an irrational impulse to push over people in order to save a few bucks, this only comes from the irrational idea that you can somehow outrun other people to the location it is being sold at and get the item... which to begin with is fairly doubtful if your at the back of the crowd (line or random door slam).

For the record the lady who actually pushed an old woman to get that much more of a headstart seemed to be wearing a coat/bag that seemed high end (although I don't much about fashion).

I think education and manners plays a role, and you can lack one or the other in all sort of demographics.

[SFL Cat]

Honestly, I can't imagine being callous enough to step on or over someone on the ground without making a major effort to stop and offer some assistance.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Sgran

Back in 1990 I went to see Rush in Alpine Valley, Wisconsin. Soon I was lifted off my feet by the pressing crowd (which was completely white, by the way)

This is the definition of redundancy.

[Autumn]

dola

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

Honestly, I can't imagine being callous enough to step on or over someone on the ground without making a major effort to stop and offer some assistance.

While I don't know the exact situation at this Wal-Mart, I think people are confused to imagine that some people were intentionally stepping on the man. The problem with a crowd like this, as the Rush fan above explains, is that the small actions of the people at the back trying to step forward accumulates into possibly lethal pressure at the front of the crowd who has nowhere to step. There was not necessarily any people in that crowd intentionally stepping on the man (who we were also told had a heart attack, and was not necessarily trampled, but even so). The people at the front get injured because they cannot resist the cumulative pressure of all the people at the back. The people at the back have no idea what they're doing because they are only mildly pressing into the people in front of them.

In this sense I agree that it's Wal-mart's fault, in the sense that crowd control is not something each person in the crowd can do themselves. Even a well-intentioned crowd can kill a person if the physical structure is wrong.

[Sgran]

Originally Posted by Autumn

dola



While I don't know the exact situation at this Wal-Mart, I think people are confused to imagine that some people were intentionally stepping on the man. The problem with a crowd like this, as the Rush fan above explains, is that the small actions of the people at the back trying to step forward accumulates into possibly lethal pressure at the front of the crowd who has nowhere to step. There was not necessarily any people in that crowd intentionally stepping on the man (who we were also told had a heart attack, and was not necessarily trampled, but even so). The people at the front get injured because they cannot resist the cumulative pressure of all the people at the back. The people at the back have no idea what they're doing because they are only mildly pressing into the people in front of them.

In this sense I agree that it's Wal-mart's fault, in the sense that crowd control is not something each person in the crowd can do themselves. Even a well-intentioned crowd can kill a person if the physical structure is wrong.

very well put.

[Mustang]

Looks like the first lawsuit is out.

NEW YORK (CNN) -- Two customers are suing Wal-Mart for negligence after being injured in a mad rush for post-Thanksgiving bargains that left one store employee dead, the men's attorney said Tuesday.
A temporary worker at this Wal-Mart was crushed to death when shoppers rushed into the store last week.

A temporary worker at this Wal-Mart was crushed to death when shoppers rushed into the store last week.

Temporary Wal-Mart worker Jdimytai Damour, 34, was crushed to death as he and other employees attempted to unlock the doors of a store on Long Island at 5 a.m. Friday.

Attorney Kenneth Mollins said Fritz Mesadieu and Jonathan Mesadieu were "literally carried from their position outside the store" and are now "suffering from pain in their neck and their back from being caught in that surge of people" that rushed into the Wal-Mart.

New York Newsday reported that the Mesadieus are father and son, ages 51 and 19.

The lawsuit alleges that the Mesadieus' injuries were a result of "carelessness, recklessness, negligence."

In a claim against the Nassau County police department, the men also contend that they "sustained monetary losses as a result of health care and legal expenses ... in the sum of $2 million."

"This is a tragic situation that could have and should have been avoided with the exercise of reasonable care. There are very simple measures that could have been put in place to avoid this, such as barriers along the line to spread people out, extra security and a better police presence," Mollins said.

He said his clients and others who were at the scene contend that the police "were there ... saw what was happening, and they left."

Calls seeking comment from Wal-Mart Stores Inc. were not immediately returned.

Lt. Kevin Smith of the Nassau County Police Department said, "it's our policy that we don't comment on open litigations" and would not respond directly to Mollins and his clients' claim that officers left the scene.

He said it is "incumbent upon the store to provide security" but noted that there was no security force present when officers responded to an initial phone call after 3 a.m. Friday for an unknown disturbance at the site.

Smith said the officers noticed a lack of order with the crowd and began to organize them into a line, remaining on site for about 30 minutes until the crowd had become orderly.

Throughout the morning, officers went back to check on the crowd and continued to notice no disturbance, Smith said.

He said that there were no additional calls for assistance until about 5 a.m., when people began rushing the doors of the store and trampled Damour.
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An autopsy showed that Damour died of asphyxiation after being trampled, Nassau County officials have said.

Video showed that as many as a dozen people were knocked to the floor in the stampede of people trying to get into the store. The employee was "stepped on by hundreds of people" as other workers attempted to fight their way through the crowd, said Nassau County Police Detective Lt. Michael Fleming.




Ok, I knew lawsuits were going to come out of this and I'm on the fence as for who should take the blame, but monetary loses from legal and medical to the tune of $2M in 5 days time? I think I could have all 4 of my limbs ripped from my body and reattached and I'm not sure I'd have $2M in medical expenses after 5 days.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Oilers9911

You must be kidding. Let's see, guy gets trampled to death while he is at work. Is he a police officer during a riot? Is there a sudden panic because of a fire, or a bomb threat, or a guy with a gun? No. He was trampled to death because the scumbags that trampled him wanted to save $10 on a video game, or $5 on a DVD, or $100 on a TV.

Could Wal-Mart have done a better job at preparing for the crowd? Sure. But to blame the store because a bunch of assholes had to have what they wanted right that second is completely assinine.

Wal-Mart is definitely responsible for hyping the crap out of Black Friday, driving the hysteria to mass levels and then having a "run for your item, free for all".

You'll note places like Best Buy didn't have problems because they had lines and an orderly procession. So, yes, I do blame Wal-Mart.

It's like not blaming a sports team for having a "run for whatever seat you can get" playoff game.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I'm not a fan of frivilous lawsuits, but this one is well-warranted if for no other reason than to get Wal-Mart to act to make sure this kind of thing doesn't happen again. It's well-know that Wal-Mart has allowed this stampede mentality to occur for several years without finding a good way to organize the crowd and provide adequate security. They need to head over to Best Buy headquarters and take a crash course on how to handle these events. It's a shame that it took this kind of thing to bring their problems to light.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

You'll note places like Best Buy didn't have problems because they had lines and an orderly procession.

If you believe that's the only reason things are different between the two, then you're either naive as hell or a damned fool.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

If you believe that's the only reason things are different between the two, then you're either naive as hell or a damned fool.

What... were most of the shoppers black or something? Is that what you are too chickenshit to say?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by lungs

What... were most of the shoppers black or something? Is that what you are too chickenshit to say?

I'm not sure what he meant but I took it as Wal Mart shoppers are lower income.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by lungs

What... were most of the shoppers black or something? Is that what you are too chickenshit to say?

Actually I was thinking more along income/disposable income differences between Black Friday at Wal-Mart and Best Buy than about race. Average cost of an item sold is significantly different between the two stores, as would very likely be the case for average transaction as well.

But as for the racial aspect, I don't have the slightest hesitation about it. The demographics of the crowd of hooligans involved in the NY death were pretty clear to anyone who has seen the pictures of the scene. You could hypothetical all day but the bottom line is that a temp worker wasn't trampled to death by snaggletoothed hillbillies trying to get a bargain on the latest Larry the Cable Guy DVD.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Oilers9911

You must be kidding. Let's see, guy gets trampled to death while he is at work. Is he a police officer during a riot? Is there a sudden panic because of a fire, or a bomb threat, or a guy with a gun? No. He was trampled to death because the scumbags that trampled him wanted to save $10 on a video game, or $5 on a DVD, or $100 on a TV.

Could Wal-Mart have done a better job at preparing for the crowd? Sure. But to blame the store because a bunch of assholes had to have what they wanted right that second is completely assinine.

Why does it have to be either/or? If this guy is assigned to open the door and Walmart has not adequately provided for crowd control, then they are at fault. That doesn't mean the people who stomped through aren't also to blame.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Actually I was thinking more along income/disposable income differences between Black Friday at Wal-Mart and Best Buy than about race. Average cost of an item sold is significantly different between the two stores, as would very likely be the case for average transaction as well.

But as for the racial aspect, I don't have the slightest hesitation about it. The demographics of the crowd of hooligans involved in the NY death were pretty clear to anyone who has seen the pictures of the scene. You could hypothetical all day but the bottom line is that a temp worker wasn't trampled to death by snaggletoothed hillbillies trying to get a bargain on the latest Larry the Cable Guy DVD.

I sort of wondered after I posted if you'd play the economic angle.

I don't know the economic demographics of the area, but when I saw pictures I just saw a lot of black people.

I guess I've seen you dropped many veiled suggestions as to the cause and wondered why the hell you just don't come out and say it?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

If this guy is assigned to open the door and Walmart has not adequately provided for crowd control, then they are at fault.

At least a couple of the articles in the first 24-36 hours after the incident made reference (I'm paraphrasing) to the victim simply approaching the area looking to help with a situation that was already out of control, that he was not assigned to any sort of door opening duty or anything.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

If you believe that's the only reason things are different between the two, then you're either naive as hell or a damned fool.

So, it seems likely to you that the biggest difference between Best Buy which apparently had a plan and personnel for orderly crowd control, and Wal-Mart, which did not, is that the items are cheaper at Wal-Mart? So, if there had been no crowd control at Best Buy, those suburban middle class people jonesing for their great deal on a TV wouldn't push and shove their way in because people with higher incomes don't act that way?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Autumn

So, if there had been no crowd control at Best Buy, those suburban middle class people jonesing for their great deal on a TV wouldn't push and shove their way in because people with higher incomes don't act that way?

Hell of a lot less likely. Impossible? No.

Or do you have evidence of an equal rate of occurrence of violent behavior at George Strait concerts vs rap concerts?

edit to add: Feel free to try to blame the store all you want, but the bottom line is that the responsibility for the lack of civilized behavior falls on those who participated, the same people who bitched about their shopping experience being disrupted because they killed someone. When I see the same thing happening at Linens N' Things then I'll reconsider whether there might be less of a demographic influence on the behavior, but until then, all I see are fools desperately trying to avoid the cold hard truth.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Hell of a lot less likely. Impossible? No.

Or do you have evidence of an equal rate of occurrence of violent behavior at George Strait concerts vs rap concerts?

Those George Strait concerts get pretty rowdy.

Wouldn't a more apt comparison to rap be rock/metal? I'm sure the numbers would still prove your point. When's the last time a rapper got shot and killed on stage like Dimebag Darrell?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by lungs

Wouldn't a more apt comparison to rap be rock/metal? I'm sure the numbers would still prove your point. When's the last time a rapper got shot and killed on stage like Dimebag Darrell?

They have to survive the parking lot, da club, and da hood in order to even be on stage for it to happen. Why shoot the guy on stage when you can just gun him down on the street? Or did I somehow miss it when Lemmy shivved James Hetfield? Or the Great Nashville Gang War where Brooks & Dunn did that drive-by outside Kenny Chesney's crib?

As for the comparison, no I'd say BestBuy/Strait vs Wal-Mart/Fitty is pretty apt. Actually Bolton/KennyG might be more on target but I was trying to stick a little closer to the redneck stereotyping that often goes with Wal-Mart.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

As for the comparison, no I'd say BestBuy/Strait vs Wal-Mart/Fitty is pretty apt. Actually Bolton/KennyG might be more on target but I was trying to stick a little closer to the redneck stereotyping that often goes with Wal-Mart.

Ahhhh... I misunderstood why you used the two in a comparison.

While not violent, I've seen/heard plenty of despicable shit at country music festivals like a brother whoring out his sister and things like that.

[SportsDino]

Not to debate incident rates, but white crowds of at least seemingly middle class income have engaged in the same behavior. Stupidity is not confined to any demographic, and I'm pretty sure if you go with a Best Buy voucher program on all the things people are lining up for you remove the incentive for a mad stupid rush, even in the demographics you think don't know any better.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Hell of a lot less likely. Impossible? No.

Or do you have evidence of an equal rate of occurrence of violent behavior at George Strait concerts vs rap concerts?

edit to add: Feel free to try to blame the store all you want, but the bottom line is that the responsibility for the lack of civilized behavior falls on those who participated, the same people who bitched about their shopping experience being disrupted because they killed someone. When I see the same thing happening at Linens N' Things then I'll reconsider whether there might be less of a demographic influence on the behavior, but until then, all I see are fools desperately trying to avoid the cold hard truth.

I'm not disagreeing that the people involved are partly to blame. I just find your broad generalizations a little silly. Do all black people like rap music and participate in drive-bys? I didn't realize that. Foolish of me I guess.

What happened was not some riot that only happens to "inner city folk". It was a large crowd where someone got knocked odwn and crushed. As has been noted, this happens often whenever a large number of people line up and try to get into a small entrance. It really has nothing to do with violent tendencies, it has to do with physics and disorder.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by SportsDino

Not to debate incident rates, but white crowds of at least seemingly middle class income have engaged in the same behavior. Stupidity is not confined to any demographic, and I'm pretty sure if you go with a Best Buy voucher program on all the things people are lining up for you remove the incentive for a mad stupid rush, even in the demographics you think don't know any better.

Best Buy doesn't just hand out vouchers. They also have employees stationed along the line outside to keep people from cutting in line or trying to rush the doors. It doesn't take much to plan, but it works exceedingly well.