09-17-2008, 06:35 AM | #1 | |||
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Theistic Evolution vs Creationism
As a non-practicing Catholic, this blurb caught my interest.
Vatican: Guess what, Darwin? Evolution is OK - Science - MSNBC.com Quote:
I had not heard the phrase "theistic evolution". I appreciate the Catholic church trying to resolve the conflict that so many of us have between what I would categorize as logic/science vs fundamentalism. |
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09-17-2008, 07:16 AM | #2 |
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I wondered in conversation with more religious minded Christians why they were against evolution to begin with. It always made sense to me that, strategically, all the church had to do was claim that evolution was God's plan and the problem was solved. I guess were there now.
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09-17-2008, 07:35 AM | #3 |
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This was always a "duh" to me as well.
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09-17-2008, 08:40 AM | #4 | |
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Truth isn't strategic. It is precisely what it is. At least from the point of view of a fundamentalist. Fundamentalist Christians have often criticized the Catholic church for being too malleable with the tenents of its faith. I imagine this would be pointed to by them as another example. |
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09-17-2008, 08:43 AM | #5 |
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What i find weird is that if the church all the sudden decides that they are not against evolutionism anymore, all the believers must all the sudden believe on it too against what they have been told for centuries.
I thought exactly the same when the church decided all the sudden a few years ago that the place where kids that died before baptism went (don't know the name in English) did no longer exist and that kids that die before baptism now go to heaven too. What about all the kids that were supposedly there for over 20 centuries? It has been always the same with the catholic church (the only one i know as i have been part of it). If you read their history, a big amount of the strong believes they have, have just been decided by a group of bishops in a Vatican meeting some centuries ago, like which evangelist were the good ones or if Maria was virgin or the date where Christ was born (like if any of that was really important for a true believer). Stuff like that is what made me to stop to believe in the catholic church and to see them as just another fundamentalist religion. I was told to believe everything as it was told to me without asking and to have faith... until they decided that i had to believe the opposite thing again not asking about it and having blind faith until they change their mind again.
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Last edited by Icy : 09-17-2008 at 08:44 AM. |
09-17-2008, 08:56 AM | #6 | |
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Not necessarily. One of the things about the Catholic faith is that not everything the pope says goes. There's a very specific way, and very specific things that make certain things infalliable in the Catholic doctrine, and this isn't one of them. Yes, it's what the faith teaches, but it doesn't mean you can't disagree. FWIW, as a practicing Catholic, I'm unsure as to why this would ever be a question. But I've never had a literal interpretation of any part of the Bible, so that's probably a difference. |
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09-17-2008, 08:59 AM | #7 |
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The problem with a lot of the views of the Catholic church (and other churches/religions) is that they are not particularly that well exmanied. Like Icy said, a lot of beliefs were just proclamations from some group in the church that were passed down from up on high and then blindly followed because that's sort of how religion works.
When folks to start really examining some of these beliefs, like what happens to all the kids who die before getting baptized, or when science begins to show cracks in these beliefs, the Church is put in a position to either back peddle a bit and adapt or stick feverntly to their guns and fight against the tide of reality and common sense. I can see how either option could alienate certain followers. Religions serve many purposes, one of which has always been to explain the unexplainable. As science renders fewer and fewer things unexplainable, that aspect of religion has begun to fade. "Theistic Evolution" is just the latest example of that.
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09-17-2008, 09:18 AM | #8 | |
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Quote:
It is called Limbo in English. If the Catholic Church didn't change its position from time to time, the heavens would still revolve around a flat earth. To stand the test of time, a religion has to be flexible. Catholicism is certainly that. |
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09-17-2008, 11:05 AM | #9 | |
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Isn't this the same "intelligent design" that the religious right has been pushing for awhile?
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09-17-2008, 11:42 AM | #10 | |
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Quote:
It's probably creationism 3.0. Now if we can just get the pope/catholic church to say the earth is billions of years old...
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09-17-2008, 11:52 AM | #11 | |
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Maybe they're flexible, but when they take stands on science, it just assures that they'll be perpetually behind everyone else. |
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09-17-2008, 11:56 AM | #12 | |
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It depends on what you mean by "everyone." The Catholics are ahead of some Christian sects and behind others as far as embracing progress and science go. Odd that I would be defending Catholicism in any way, shape or form. |
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09-17-2008, 12:15 PM | #13 | |
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Quote:
It is definitely from a 'creationist' point of view. I'm sure it's legit in their minds.
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09-17-2008, 01:14 PM | #14 | |
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Quote:
Oh, you mean like this? (spoilered for length)
Spoiler
That's off the Vatican website, from a committee headed up by the former cardinal / current pope. Don't confuse the Catholic church with farthest of the religious right - many of them can't stand Catholics, either. |
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09-17-2008, 01:27 PM | #15 |
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09-17-2008, 01:29 PM | #16 |
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09-17-2008, 01:51 PM | #17 |
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Just another way that 'the truth' has evolved over time. I never knew 'the truth' could change so much, while dealing with the same subject matter and same religious text.
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09-17-2008, 01:54 PM | #18 |
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In the Catholic church, it is referred to as 'purgatory'. I think in both Spanish and Italian is it 'purgatorio'.
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09-17-2008, 01:56 PM | #19 | |
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Quote:
Good link. Too bad more people don't read that.
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09-17-2008, 01:58 PM | #20 | |
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Nope... Purgatory is the "in-between" place where people who die with sins on the soul go before being allowed into Heaven. Limbo is the (no-longer-taught) place that the unbaptized, etc, went. |
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09-17-2008, 02:12 PM | #21 |
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This topic kind of came up in the Beliefs thread but I do believe it is abot time to consider this possibility. I grew up in a Christian family and went to a christian school from K-12 and you could not believe the stir it caused when I asked that question in class when we were being taught how evil evolution was.
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09-17-2008, 03:12 PM | #22 |
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09-17-2008, 03:30 PM | #23 |
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09-17-2008, 04:00 PM | #24 |
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It's simple. God created matter and everything in the universe, and did stuff with it. Since we aren't God and can't even fathom God's mind, it's silly to totally box God in by saying evolution isn't true. Genesis says that God created things, not how it was specifically done.
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09-17-2008, 04:05 PM | #25 |
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Dola.
For example, if I tell someone who doesn't know anything about cooking, "Jason made lasagna", they know that I made it, but they don't know how I went through the process of getting specific ingredients, assembling them in a certain way, and then cooking them until they are a lasagna. I think that science is basically figuring out God's recipe book.
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Just beat the devil out of it!!! - Bob Ross Last edited by Schmidty : 09-17-2008 at 04:06 PM. |
09-17-2008, 04:08 PM | #26 | |
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Quote:
Proof that it's the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
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09-17-2008, 04:09 PM | #27 |
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09-17-2008, 04:10 PM | #28 | |
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Quote:
The versions of Genesis I've read give some specifics as to how the world, man, animals, etc. were created and it doesn't jive with evolution. At all.
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09-17-2008, 04:11 PM | #29 | |
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I think a better way of saying this is that science is basically de-bunking everything that was once attributed to "God". It happened to those old timey Roman/Greek/Norse myths after all.
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09-17-2008, 04:12 PM | #30 | |
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Quote:
From the Baptist fundamentalist point of view, Genesis said God created Adam and Eve. There was not a elaborate drawn out process of billions of years. |
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09-17-2008, 04:22 PM | #31 | |
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It all boils down to whether you take everything literally, or if you realize that God was giving the message to people that had no idea about........anything, so the message was given in a way they could understand. I still think the Bible is "God-breathed" as they say, but I also know that there is much more to the physical world than what is contained there. I think science and man's progress in it, is God revealing more details to us. Of course I could be wrong. I'm a Christian (or Follower of Christ), but I am very comfortable with science. It actually comforts me to know that there are so many things out there that we don't know, because it makes God's greatness seem even greater. Regardless, if someone is an atheist, there's no sense arguing as far as I'm concerned. Not because of stubborness or being evil or whatever, but because a person can't get it unless it's in their heart. Now proceed to make fun of me.
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09-17-2008, 04:30 PM | #32 | |
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Schmidty, the only problem that I have with what you just wrote, is it sounds like you think atheists are evil. If that's not what you meant, then all I can say is, you are definitely intitled to your thinking no matter how much I disagree with it. May His Noodley Appendage Touch You.
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09-17-2008, 04:36 PM | #33 | |
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I don't even remotely think atheists are any more evil than anyone else, they just aren't Christians. I have a relationship with 'my' God (who I happen to believe created the universe, sent Jesus, etc.), and anyone else's belief or non-belief isn't my business. I never force anything down anyone's throat. If there's a discussion that I can add my personal opinion on, then I do. That's all.
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09-17-2008, 04:48 PM | #34 | |
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It's almost certain that, at some point, I will make fun of you for something, but not for this. I totally see your point and agree from the flipside of things. As an athiest, I don't see the sense in arguing whether or not evolution was just "God's plan" all along or not. There's nothing that anyone (other than God Himself) could say to convince me and there's nothing I could say to convince someone who believed it otherwise. I've never mocked or made fun of anyone for believing in any god. It's a personal thing. The only time I'll get after folks is when they try to justify certain behaviors or beliefs (which I strenously disagree with) because "God said so."
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09-17-2008, 04:48 PM | #35 | |
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Cool. Just asking and didn't want to make any assumptions.
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09-17-2008, 06:15 PM | #36 |
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Without reading this thread, I am glad to see this distinction (if a distinction is being made). Whenever we have "creationism" discussion, I always bring up that many Christians growing up in the 70s believed in theistic evolution. But come to find out, that somehow got confused with ID or perhaps ID hijacked it and turned it into creationism-lite. I very much still stick by the original definition of theistic evolution and have not changed my views as I learned more over the decades.
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09-17-2008, 09:10 PM | #37 | |
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I'm a born and raised Christian, etc...Something sort of unrelated. Been going through reading the Bible and I have wondered about Noah and the arc. The arc itself was big, but it wasn't big enough to contain what we consider all of the animals in the world. Granted, we've have had more time to populate. Maybe when the flood came there was only a small number of animals and after the flood we see where God lets evolution happen on a much grander scale. I'm not saying evolution is 100% wrong, but I do agree that there simply isn't any way to say evolution is 100% right either. God can go into a credible amount of detail when he wants to considering what's written in the Bible about stuff. It seems odd that he would say how he created man and woman and then for it to not be exactly like that and more of evolution's version. |
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09-17-2008, 10:22 PM | #38 | |
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09-18-2008, 08:52 AM | #39 |
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Honestly, that applies to pretty much everything. Everything in the Bible with the possible/probable exceptions of the epistles was oral tradition for long before it was written down. The story of the Flood and the Ark is so common, that it's hard to argue it's not based in some factual occurance, even if something local to the Eastern Meditteranean rather than world-wide.
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09-18-2008, 09:50 AM | #40 |
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I think it's true that all societies have flood myths. One explanation I've seen is that approximately 10,000 years ago, as the world came out of the ice age, the Mediterranean Sea and the Black Sea were separated by a strip of land where Istanbul is today. The Black Sea in fact was a very large fresh water lake at this time with many settlements on its banks.
Because of evapouration the level of the Black Sea lake was several tens of metres below that of the Mediterranean. As the ice melted and the Mediteranean rose there came a point when the land mass was breached and the water cut a path through to the Black Sea. In a period thought to be around 3 months the Black Sea lake rose 20 metres or more covering all the settlements on the shores and drowning most of the inhabitants. These inhabitants, totally unaware of why, just watched the water rise and envelope up their towns, homes and communities. It's thought that this event is the source of the flood myths. Last edited by Mac Howard : 09-18-2008 at 09:55 AM. |
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