I may have to support the LPGA now

[cartman]

The Supreme Court has pretty much ruled that there are only two instances where English can be mandated. One is for safety (Air Traffic control, 911 Operators, Police, Fire, etc.) and the other efficiency (most common example: telephone customer service). It'll be interesting to see if this holds up in court, because it doesn't seem to fit either of the two established reasons for requiring English.

[miked]

As to the original point of this thread, I find it laughable that listening to a post-game speech/interview being given in English is what precluded you from watching the LPGA. I can't remember a time I watched golf on TV and heard much of anything from the competitors until the last 5 minutes.

[Anthony]

how can the LPGA market its players if they can't do commercials or tv promotions? every sport has its core group of elite players that are the face of that league. you don't follow golf. you follow golf players. golf isn't even a team sport. men's golf is enjoying a great stretch of interest from the public, taking hockey's spot as america's 4th sport (tied with NASCAR). this is because of guys like Tiger and Mickelson and Singh and Sergio. i don't even follow golf and i know who the main players are. with LPGA you have Annika and maybe Wie as anywhere near household names. one is now retired and the other hasn't received the memo that she isn't good enough to play with the boys and hardly good enough to play with the girls. if the LPGA is going to have the same kind of exposure that women's tennis had in its heyday of Hingis, Kournikova, Williams sisters, Davenport, et al - its going to need women who can do american commercials and be able to promote the LPGA.

[miked]

I don't see lots of commercials for women's tennis, let alone women's golf, so I don't really understand your issue. If there's a commercial, it's usually just highlights of some plays and that's about it. If their sponsors want them to promote their products better, maybe they should think about who they sign to endorsement deals.

I'm not saying I wouldn't mind it if the athletes learned English, but it's just silly. We don't hear baseball talking about this and half the players don't speak English.

[Anthony]

baseball is an american institution. they also have enough english speaking mega-stars that they can stand to have a larger portion of non-english speaking employees. guys like ARod, Ryan Howard, Schilling, David Wright, David Ortiz, Vladdy, Chipper Jones, etc, they are the face of the league.

and i mean commercials such as "Michelle Wie wears Rolex: an official sponsor of the LPGA".

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

It's an American xenophobic thing. It's a fairly strong attitude here that everyone in the US must speak English, and then that Americans should be able to speak English everywhere else in the world as well. It doesn't really make sense, but it seems to be a very American attitude to have.

Love the pics, though...

I call bullshit, most every country in the world has a language that they consider the "national language". It should be no different here, if you want to work here you need to be able to speak the language of the people here. How far does it have to go? Why should government entities be obligated to have documents in 15 different languages?

And as for American's expecting other countries to speak English, well those are just stupid American's, but English is a global language, many countries speak it and many countries teach it as a second language. Oh by the way, English isn't even American, it's from England...

BTW it sounded to me that they used a lot of English at the Olympics this year, I doubt the US had anything to do with that.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Anthony

baseball is an american institution. they also have enough english speaking mega-stars that they can stand to have a larger portion of non-english speaking employees. guys like ARod, Ryan Howard, Schilling, David Wright, David Ortiz, Vladdy, Chipper Jones, etc, they are the face of the league.

and i mean commercials such as "Michelle Wie wears Rolex: an official sponsor of the LPGA".

Vladdy barely speaks English, and rarely if ever gives English interviews... FTW.

[miami_fan]

This is an issue only because the cute girls that the LPGA hitched its future to are not winning enough. If Gulbis, Wie and company were winning, there would be no issue at all.

[Groundhog]

Ah well, the Koreans will just go setup their OWN LPGA, with blackjack, and hookers!

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

I call bullshit, most every country in the world has a language that they consider the "national language". It should be no different here, if you want to work here you need to be able to speak the language of the people here. How far does it have to go? Why should government entities be obligated to have documents in 15 different languages?

I never said anything about "official" or "national" languages. Try again. If LPGA has ONE single event outside of the USA, then your claim of "work here" no longer applies. Maybe, just maybe, you can have a leg to stand on for demanding they not participate in events inside the US, but certainly not anything that happens in other countries. By the same token, I expect everyone to speak the "national language" of whatever nation the tournament is in or be banned from entry. Let's take this to its logical conclusion. Let's also make this same demand for all sports, hell, let's extend it to use of oxygen here. If you are not an English speaker, you shouldn't even be allowed into the country for any reason.

And as for American's expecting other countries to speak English, well those are just stupid American's, but English is a global language, many countries speak it and many countries teach it as a second language. Oh by the way, English isn't even American, it's from England...

And they still speak it better than most Americans.

BTW it sounded to me that they used a lot of English at the Olympics this year, I doubt the US had anything to do with that.

Do you think they were forced to, or maybe chose to? I'm not sure what the regulations are for that, so it won't help your case unless they are forced to do it. Voluntarily choosing to use English doesn't support the case for mandatory requirement of it.

[Big Fo]

English and French are the official languages of the Olympics, every announcement is given out in those two plus the language of the host country.

[cuervo72]

Hmm. You know, I wouldn't think that LPGA golfers are really employed by the LPGA. They don't play for salary, they play for purses (prizes). They have to meet certain specifications to be invited/allowed to play on the tour (qualify for a tour card, get sponsor exemptions). I don't think they are really employees of the LPGA though. Being a member of the LPGA is probably more like being a member of a trade organization ("The LPGA is also an organization for female club and teaching golf professionals").

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Big Fo

English and French are the official languages of the Olympics, every announcement is given out in those two plus the language of the host country.

that's something i didn't know. i would think English and Greek, to keep with the tradition of the original Greek Olympics. perhaps French is one of the more well known Latin-based languages spoken throughout Europe, just a wild guess.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

Let's take this to its logical conclusion. Let's also make this same demand for all sports, hell, let's extend it to use of oxygen here. If you are not an English speaker, you shouldn't even be allowed into the country for any reason.

Yeah....ok.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Yeah....ok.

It's the "national language", and we have to maintain it. It makes just as much sense as requiring golfers to speak English. Shouldn't the LPGA be more interested in attracting the best female golfers rather than the language they speak? Encourage them to learn English, for sure, but require it? Come on.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Hmm. You know, I wouldn't think that LPGA golfers are really employed by the LPGA. They don't play for salary, they play for purses (prizes). They have to meet certain specifications to be invited/allowed to play on the tour (qualify for a tour card, get sponsor exemptions). I don't think they are really employees of the LPGA though. Being a member of the LPGA is probably more like being a member of a trade organization ("The LPGA is also an organization for female club and teaching golf professionals").

if that's the case doesn't that give the LPGA more of a leg to stand on, not having to implement EOE practices. if it's an organization aren't they permitted to set whatever standards for admission they see fit, provided it's not blatant discrimination?

you and i can create our own organization right now with Swahili our official language and we could make admission to our organization dependent on the ability of one being able to speak that language. i don't think any law would be broken. i'm not well versed on the laws regarding this, i would just assume the laws are more strict for companies in this matter than they are for organizations. if you have an organization that can only be comprised of alumni from a certain school they aren't required to admit just anyone off of the street who wants in. what's the difference with LPGA requiring uniformity with regards to the official language used by its members?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

Shouldn't the LPGA be more interested in attracting the best female golfers rather than the language they speak?

they should be more interested in attracting the best female golfers with the most potential to increase interest in that league. Anna Kournikova will never be mentioned in the same breath as the Williams Sisters, but she's done as much, if not arguably more, to advance women's tennis than most anyone since Billy Jean King, and i'm not saying that with my tongue in my cheek.

if Yao Ming can learn to speak English, some Korean golfer can do it also.

[Groundhog]

If Yao Ming can learn English, surely every English speaking golfer can learn to speak Korean!

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

If Yao Ming can learn English, surely every English speaking golfer can learn to speak Korean!

The jury is still out on that. Have you ever seen one of his Garmin commercials?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by miked

If their sponsors want them to promote their products better, maybe they should think about who they sign to endorsement deals.

Umm ... I think you've got the wrong sponsors in mind here. The ones that would benefit most from this rule are the event title sponsors & the tour marketing partners, not those that select an individual golfer for their specific product.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Anthony

they should be more interested in attracting the best female golfers with the most potential to increase interest in that league. Anna Kournikova will never be mentioned in the same breath as the Williams Sisters, but she's done as much, if not arguably more, to advance women's tennis than most anyone since Billy Jean King, and i'm not saying that with my tongue in my cheek.

if Yao Ming can learn to speak English, some Korean golfer can do it also.

Would anyone have cared if Anna Kournikova did not speak English? Would it lessen anyone's interest in the LPGA if Natalie Gulbis did not speak English? No, both drew interest without opening their mouth.

Funny Se Ri Pak is Korean, speaks English AND is a HOFer. Anyone seen her in any commercials recently?

[miked]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Umm ... I think you've got the wrong sponsors in mind here. The ones that would benefit most from this rule are the event title sponsors & the tour marketing partners, not those that select an individual golfer for their specific product.

Yeah, my bad. Don't watch golf very often and if I do I just flip around so obviously I pay no attention to the advertisements or anything.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The reason for this is pretty obvious from the comment of the LPGA deputy commissioner

"You have to interact effectively with your pro-am partners. You need to be able to do media interviews. And you need to give a winner's acceptance speech in English," she said. "They must speak at a level that effectively accomplishes those three things."

Seems pretty obvious what sponsors have complained about -- Unsatisfying pro-ams, top names who can't participate in promotional opportuntieis, top players who can't even thank the sponsor in English -- and those have to make it harder to sell sponsorships.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Anthony

except i don't think anyone would expect an organization called "The Fédération Internationale de Football Association" to have English as it's sole language. i don't even think it's based in the US, whereas the LPGA is.

Err as I indicated in my post regardless of where its central base is the LPGA hosts competitions worldwide, hence my feeling its inappropriate for it to try and restrict the language used (for instance it seems bizarre to me that their Korean competition requires English language).

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Anthony

so if there was a very lucrative job in Mexico where you would be named the CEO of your own gaming company, the only caveat being you would need to be able to communicate in spanish - you would cry "discrimination"? so you would feel discriminated against if there was a job you wanted that required you to speak the language of the country where that company was based? you just gonna waltz into a company in Sweden and expect to be hired based solely on your ability and not based on your ability PLUS communication skills? you would demand to have a translator present at meetings? you would expect to be hired and have the company pander to your requirements?

No I wouldn't at all - because in those circumstances the job would require communication from myself to employees which would need me to be able to speak the same language of themselves.

With Golf or another sport however its purely the ability of the player at the sport which indicates their success and to base it on anything else imho is detrimental to the sport itself because its trying to create a false situation and has stopped being a 'sport' at that point and is purely a marketing excercise.

I felt the same way regarding the Graeme Obree (Graeme Obree - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) having to continually over come rule changes with his cycles which seem to have been done purely to prevent him and his (then) revolutionary ideas from being allowed in the sport. If you've never seen the film about him and his achievements then I'd reconmend it.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Anthony

how can the LPGA market its players if they can't do commercials or tv promotions?

Well thats not stopped English soccer from managing to successfully do commercial and tv promotions with famous players who have a very limited grasp of English upon occassion, generally speaking you see their skills and indeed thats what their 'fans' are generally impressed by anyway.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Anthony

if that's the case doesn't that give the LPGA more of a leg to stand on, not having to implement EOE practices. if it's an organization aren't they permitted to set whatever standards for admission they see fit, provided it's not blatant discrimination?

If selection by language isn't blatant discrimination in your eyes what is?

A minimum bra size?

[flere-imsaho]

This thread had promise on Page One, but now you people are talking too much. For shame!

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

... and is purely a marketing excercise.

Are you suggesting that you operate under the illusion that isn't the case?
Doggone it Marc, I know good & well you're smarter than that.

And this is the LPGA we're talking about here. Do you really think they're paying their purses based on ticket sales? No, those purses exist because the organization is able to leverage the marketing opportunity they present into a pretty decent amount of cash.

The players are paid on the basis of their performance in a given week but the money they're paid exists because someone perceives some marketing benefit from the affair and most definitely not because there's some good golfers on the course & they want them to get paid.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

Vladdy barely speaks English, and rarely if ever gives English interviews... FTW.

Yup, very true. He really only talks to reporters in English, and only ones he knows really well, and even then pretty rarely. You'll never catch him talking English live.

Fortunately, he's the sorta player where you don't really need to understand him to see how much he enjoys playing, and how friendly a guy he has. Vlad's not going to ever be lauded for his poker face.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

If selection by language isn't blatant discrimination in your eyes what is?

A minimum bra size?

see, this is the kind of thinking that makes me frown about the direction we're going as a society. so an organization can not have any membership criteria because to stipulate that all members need to be able to do X, Y and Z is "dscriminating"? i really don't like this "everything should be fair and equal" mindset that is all the rage these days.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

This thread had promise on Page One, but now you people are talking too much. For shame!

Aye. More Korean women pictures, and a lot less talk about golf and stuff.

I'll try and get this back on track.

Han Ji Min

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Are you suggesting that you operate under the illusion that isn't the case?

I know its a large influence (cough) - the reason I abhore it getting worse is that once one sport gets away with it others will undoubtably follow suit.

I remember a time when ugly people could be successful popstars (The Pogues anyone ), whereas its an increasing trend that they must look as well as perform these days.

Anthony indicates that this stance is PC and bad because it restricts the rules which can be set - I see it as good because it opens up opportunities to more people, there was a time when talent alone would give you a chance as a musician, at the moment for sports thats still the case - but the direction things are heading in that won't be for long ...

... or do we seriously want all sports to end up like the WWF?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

... or do we seriously want all sports to end up like the WWF?

I guess my feeling is that by & large they already have, the difference is just by degrees.

Ultimately it's all "entertainment" and it's all driven by money, hence the word "professional" I guess (although there's quite a bit of pseudo-amateur sports where the same is true). Some situations are more obvious than others but I really can't think of many examples where that isn't the case.

[RedKingGold]

That's the way it rolls LPGA golfers. If you don't like it? Form another league, form a union, or quit playing.

end egocentrical but accurate American view.

[Anthony]

problem is they can't form a union, cuz as they'll learn from the WNBA who tried the same thing - if the product isn't in demand then you're negotiating power is greatly minimized. it's a catch-22: abide by LPGA rules, grow the league, make it marketable and in demand and by doing that you increase your negotiating power.

you don't need to be good looking to be a pop star, Marc - you need to be good looking to get a record deal. good looking performers is what the people want. look at American Idol - of the winners and finalists that have passed through its largely performers like Kelly Clarkson and Carrie Underwood and Chris Daughtry who have found meaningful success. Fantasia, while talented, just doesn't have the pretty gene and that's why she's on Broadway and not on the radio. many people have released music from the American Idol camp, many have failed - Ruben Staddard, that Soul Patrol guy, various other names. people had the same opportunity to buy their albums but didn't. pretty sells cuz that's what people buy. record lables are just investing their money towards what's more likely to sell. it's not some conspiracy to rid the world of non-pretty performers.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

That's the way it rolls LPGA golfers. If you don't like it? Form another league, form a union, or quit playing.

end egocentrical but accurate American view.

Word. What do you expect from an organization that has been sexist since its inception?

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Anthony

you don't need to be good looking to be a pop star, Marc - you need to be good looking to get a record deal. good looking performers is what the people want. look at American Idol - of the winners and finalists that have passed through its largely performers like Kelly Clarkson and Carrie Underwood and Chris Daughtry who have found meaningful success. Fantasia, while talented, just doesn't have the pretty gene and that's why she's on Broadway and not on the radio. many people have released music from the American Idol camp, many have failed - Ruben Staddard, that Soul Patrol guy, various other names. people had the same opportunity to buy their albums but didn't. pretty sells cuz that's what people buy. record lables are just investing their money towards what's more likely to sell. it's not some conspiracy to rid the world of non-pretty performers.

Oh I realise that pretty sells and that money is the ultimate aim for the governing bodies of sports, music and indeed most things ....

However that doesn't mean I have to personally condone and encourage it by not speaking out against such things - I try and not be influenced by this sort of thing as much as possible.

Hence I support Brighton and one of my favourite bands is the Pogues* ... support Ugly before everyone gets a plastic surgeon

If you actually look throughout history at the 'best' of sports and music, few of the best are photogenic; Phelps for instance is hardly model calibre and if that sport was selected on looks he'd have been watching from the stands, similarly Bono wouldn't have been made frontman for U2 etc.

I reserve my right to stand up for myself (as one of them) and argue the case of uglies everywhere .... after all you don't want to only have the spice girls to listen to do you

*The Pogues - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - their lead singer has very few teeth (partially caused I'm sure by his lifestyle) and I doubt he'd have had a chance to 'make it' if the band started these days ...

[Young Drachma]

ESPN - LPGA won't suspend players over English-speaking requirement - Golf

The LPGA Tour has backed off plans that would have suspended players who could not efficiently speak English.

The policy was widely criticized as discriminating against players, with most of the attention on Asians.

LPGA Tour commissioner Carolyn Bivens said Friday the tour would announce a revised plan by the end of the year. That plan would not include any penalties.

Bivens said there are other ways to achieve the tour's objective of "supporting and enhancing the business opportunities for every tour player."

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by article

Bivens said there are other ways to achieve the tour's objective of "supporting and enhancing the business opportunities for every tour player."

Is that how they are going to try to pass this off? "We want you to learn English so you can have better business opportunities...and if we can't improve your opportunities we are going to take them all away by kicking you off the Tour." That will be a tough spin.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by BrianD

Is that how they are going to try to pass this off? "We want you to learn English so you can have better business opportunities...and if we can't improve your opportunities we are going to take them all away by kicking you off the Tour." That will be a tough spin.

Not really all that tough to follow. By increasing sponsorship opportunities for the tour itself, every player has a "better business opportunity".

Sorry to see them give in on a pretty logical position but it's their tour, no skin off my nose if they cave.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Not really all that tough to follow. By increasing sponsorship opportunities for the tour itself, every player has a "better business opportunity".

Sorry to see them give in on a pretty logical position but it's their tour, no skin off my nose if they cave.

I agree that helping the Tour helps the players, but to position this as if the whole point was to help the players is silly.

[johnnyshaka]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Not really all that tough to follow. By increasing sponsorship opportunities for the tour itself, every player has a "better business opportunity".

Sorry to see them give in on a pretty logical position but it's their tour, no skin off my nose if they cave.

I can understand why they backed down on the "suspension" portion of the plan (how they didn't foresee all the resistance before publicizing the plan is beyond me) for existing members but I think they could easily institute some sort of language requirement for any "new" LPGA members while forcing current members to undertake some sort of training.

[miami_fan]

Given the way they went about it this time, I have no confidence whatsoever that in their ability to accomplish their stated objective in the future under the current leadership.

[Karlifornia]

It's funny to imagine Hell Atlantic tuning into LPGA events on a weekly basis simply because of the players being required to speak English.

I could just imagine him not watching the NFL on Sundays, instead tuned into the Nabisco Invitational on the Golf Channel, waving a miniature American flag as Se Ri Pak clumsily answers inane questions from some hack TV reporter.

Keep on fighting the good fight.

[Icy]

Agree with Marc Vaughan, I can't see why sports and language/culture should be mixed. If you want to see sports as any other job (where I can understand the country language to be spoken) then you are going to lose a lot of it's appealing. I don't care if sportmen can't speak at all, i want to watch them playing well their sport and giving the spectacle we are looking for.

I find funny this thread after the arguing we had in the Olympics one about what was racist or not, love the double standards.