2007-08 NBA Playoffs thread

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

No, I would say those are pretty close to the same, too. The difference in both's numbers from their regular season this year isn't much.

If you don't think Kobe tries to take the ball at the end of games, though, you must have only watched the Eastern Conference playoffs this year. And in 2007. And in 2006. And in 2004. And in 2003. And in...well, you get the picture.

BTW, was talking playoffs, which is why I don't mention 2005, but of course, he tried to take over games then, too (just games with less meaning).

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Honestly not sure how to compare. It's two different sports. Texas would probably be the closest comparison, with the M's and Yanks more on par with KG on the Celtics.

Point is, ARod didn't become some horrible clutch player until the NY media got a hold of him.

Or until after the 2004 playoffs when A-Rod had an OPS over 1.000. A-Rod career postseason OPS - .844 (1.024 in the LCS) Derek Jeter career postseason OPS - .846 (.744 LCS .809 WS) Thanks for agreeing with me, it's mostly a media creation.

Also love the argument that the definition of a clutch player is someone who takes shots at the end of games. Ummm.... what if they miss them? Also, it's harder for post guys to do it. For example, Bill Russell probably never look to take the ball on offense at the end of games, is he not clutch?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I think it's silly to compare KG to Kobe, Pierce, Jordan, DWade, LeBron or any other guard/SF who penetrates and thus can take a game over in the final minutes. The only guy in the league you could compare him to is Tim Duncan (maybe Shaq, but if we're talking last 2 minutes, I think Garnett wins there), and he wasn't able to take over games once Manu Ginobili was injured. Post guys rely on teammates to get them the ball, and thus don't have the opportunity to take over games like a swingman/PG can.

Also, I thought KG did eventually ask to be traded/at least acceded to it after Glen Taylor came out and blamed him for the franchise's inability to win.

good point

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Kobe's postseason numbers are actually worse than his regular season numbers:

Regular: 25.0/5.3/4.6

Post: 24.3/5.0/4.6

Kobe will never ever win and this has been true since he became a star in the league around 99/00. If he scores 25 points in a half and his team is tied, people will say that he doesnt get his teammates involved. If Kobe has 11 points and 7 assists going into the fourth quarter, people will say Kobe isn't trying to assert himself in the game.

But then you have games like game three was where Kobe was the only Laker doing anything (well, Sasha too) and he barely gets the praise when he basically won that game for the Lakers because his teammates show up. But no one even mentions how brilliant he was in that game.

[Neon_Chaos]

Interesting numerology bit from BSG.

Note No. 1: "6/17"
If you're a numerology buff, then you'll enjoy this one: Game 6 was played on June 17 -- in other words, "6" (the number for June, as well as the number of games in the Finals) and "17" (the number of Boston championships if you include one for 2008). Two of the four greatest Celtics of all-time -- Bill Russell and John Havlicek -- wore "6" and "17," respectively. And if you add 6+1+7, you'd get "14," the number worn by Bob Cousy, another one of the four greatest Celtics ever. (If you want to really stretch it, 3 + 3 = 6, and "33" was worn by Larry Bird, the fourth in the "greatest Celtics ever" group.) If that's not enough, the area code for Boston is "617." And on a somber note, the 1986 draft happened June 17 -- really, the last day the Celtics felt like they were invincible. I don't know what all of this means, but it means something, right?

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Meanwhile, Kevin Garnett gets criticized, despite being the key rebounder and defensive player on the team - which are the two facets that won the series for the Celtics, because he doesn't score in the last ninety seconds.

It's a sad fact that NBA fans and pundits have been groomed to value a player's worth in clutch more than a player's intangiable worth. We may not like it, but it is the way it is.

Is it unfair that Garnett's shortcomings are always highlighted over his positive talents? Not really, since everyone, specially Kobe, is constantly scrutinized under the microscope anyway.

Kobe's main criticism will be the fact that he either hogs the ball too much when he scores a lot, or fails to take over a game when he doesn't score enough. He can't win either way, but he will constantly be seen as either due to his status as one of the game's elite.

The same way for Garnett. Despite doing everything he can humanly during an entire game, he will always be scrutinized for disappearing during the final minutes of any game.

When you're considered as a franchise player, the fans and writers will expect nothing less of you, it always comes with the teritorry.

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Well, I'm criticizing Kobe for not playing well, outside of Game 3. Irrespective of how many shots he took.

I'm not saying its unfair, I just think stupid. And people who parrot the whole "Garnett isn't clutch" are making, to me, a meaningless argument - much like those who do the same to A-Rod. These are great players. Garnett played great in the Finals. We would not have won without him.

Indeed. Kobe, or the all the Lakers, for that matter, were simply outmatched by the excellent Celtics defense during this series., plain and simple.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

One game out of a six game series.

Meanwhile, Kevin Garnett gets criticized, despite being the key rebounder and defensive player on the team - which are the two facets that won the series for the Celtics, because he doesn't score in the last ninety seconds.

Who's more deserving of a pity party?

Kobe. Because his stats are essentially the same vs a great defensive team and people are calling them terrible. Kobe is the greatest player of his generation and he can never win simply because he isn't MJ. You can just look at how many times people have said that over the course of these finals.

[molson]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Kobe. Because his stats are essentially the same vs a great defensive team and people are calling them terrible. Kobe is the greatest player of his generation and he can never win simply because he isn't MJ. You can just look at how many times people have said that over the course of these finals.

Nobody's calling Kobe terrible, and noboby's saying that Garnett is a better overall player than Kobe. Are you upset that people aren't kissing his ass enough? Why do you care? This sounds like that whole thing Boston fans get criticized for when people aren't giving the Patriots enough "props" or whatever, and every negative Patriot comment is "hating".

All I know is that the Celtics as a team are better than the Lakers as a team. The Lakers fans can win their arguments about Kobe as an individual all they want, I could care less. I'm also glad the NBA player I dislike the most is also on the NBA team I dislike the most, in the city I dislike the most - that's convienient.

[MikeVic]

Didn't Kobe basically run Shaq out of town? I read excerpts from Phil Jackson's book in one of Bill Simmons' articles, so that's all I really know about it... but from those quotes, it really seems like Kobe deserves the blame for trying to carry a team. I respect him and think he's one of the best players right now (along with LeBron), but I don't like him.

Next year should be interesting with Bynum back though, provided Bynum plays at the same level.

[Fidatelo]

Kobe is a Grade-A Douchebag. A very talented Grade-A Douchebag, but nonetheless a Grade-A Douchebag. If I had to pick one guy to play with from those two teams in the Finals, it would be Garnett. Kobe would be about 5th or 6th on the list.

[BishopMVP]

Since Bill Simmons was brought up, I was reminded of one of his past ideas. For the Olympics this summer, instead of throwing together a team of stars for marketing purposes why not send the Celtics with a couple tweaks? Throw Chris Paul or Deron Williams on as the 2nd PG in place of Cassell, give them Dwight Howard down low for Big Baby or PJ Brown and leave the rest of the team as is? Maybe even put Kobe or LeBron on if they wouldn't try to take it over and show it's their team.

That team, with their chemistry, defensive rotations down and guys like Posey/House/Allen who are willing to take a back seat and hit open 3's wouldn't win the gold and do better than throwing an all-star team together 2 weeks in advance?

[Noop]

The level of hate against Kobe is sad. I am guessing this is because of his supposed rape charge?

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by Noop

The level of hate against Kobe is sad. I am guessing this is because of his supposed rape charge?

I didn't like him even before that charge. There's just something about him that makes me not like him.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Kobe is the greatest player of his generation and he can never win simply because he isn't MJ.

Again, I will suggest that Tim Duncan is a better player.

[Noop]

I won't even bother but I can understand disliking something (i.e. my disdain for the Florida Gators) I can't recall hating a person though but I could be wrong.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Kodos

Again, I will suggest that Tim Duncan is a better player.

Shaq.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Rape charge + perception of driving Shaq out of LA + general aloofness = Kobe hate

Same for me. I don't know why it is a supposed rape charge. He bought the primary witness off. Before the rape charge, I actually liked him and rooted for him.

[Kodos]

Duncan and Shaq both have 4 championships -- maybe they're both better than Kob-me.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

Same for me. I don't know why it is a supposed rape charge. He bought the primary witness off. Before the rape charge, I actually liked him and rooted for him.

Yep. He went from just a mild dislike (but respected) to my most hated player in the league.

[Noop]

I don't think he raped her.

[molson]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Since Bill Simmons was brought up, I was reminded of one of his past ideas. For the Olympics this summer, instead of throwing together a team of stars for marketing purposes why not send the Celtics with a couple tweaks? Throw Chris Paul or Deron Williams on as the 2nd PG in place of Cassell, give them Dwight Howard down low for Big Baby or PJ Brown and leave the rest of the team as is? Maybe even put Kobe or LeBron on if they wouldn't try to take it over and show it's their team.

That team, with their chemistry, defensive rotations down and guys like Posey/House/Allen who are willing to take a back seat and hit open 3's wouldn't win the gold and do better than throwing an all-star team together 2 weeks in advance?

I like the idea a lot, except I'd send the championship team as is, and only replace players who were injured or wouldn't go.

They've tried to change things up by requiring 3 year commitments on the team but it's still a mess because half the team inevitably pulls out. They haven't even reached a finals in 3 straight international tournaments. Maybe there will be bigger changes if they don't get a medal this summer.

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

I didn't like him even before that charge. There's just something about him that makes me not like him.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Since Bill Simmons was brought up, I was reminded of one of his past ideas. For the Olympics this summer, instead of throwing together a team of stars for marketing purposes why not send the Celtics with a couple tweaks? Throw Chris Paul or Deron Williams on as the 2nd PG in place of Cassell, give them Dwight Howard down low for Big Baby or PJ Brown and leave the rest of the team as is? Maybe even put Kobe or LeBron on if they wouldn't try to take it over and show it's their team.

That team, with their chemistry, defensive rotations down and guys like Posey/House/Allen who are willing to take a back seat and hit open 3's wouldn't win the gold and do better than throwing an all-star team together 2 weeks in advance?

And what happens if it was a team like the Spurs who won this year? What would you have done? Or even the Lakers? Why pick the winner of this years NBA championship instead of previous years? What about the team who got you qualified into the Olympics to begin with? Or the team that won the Worlds?

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

Same for me. I don't know why it is a supposed rape charge. He bought the primary witness off. Before the rape charge, I actually liked him and rooted for him.

Bought the primary witness off? Huh?

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

And what happens if it was a team like the Spurs who won this year? What would you have done? Or even the Lakers? Why pick the winner of this years NBA championship instead of previous years? What about the team who got you qualified into the Olympics to begin with? Or the team that won the Worlds?

Yeah why not send the Knicks! They won a title in 1973!

[molson]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

And what happens if it was a team like the Spurs who won this year? What would you have done? Or even the Lakers? Why pick the winner of this years NBA championship instead of previous years? What about the team who got you qualified into the Olympics to begin with? Or the team that won the Worlds?

They haven't won the World's since '94. They'll love to send the same exact team that qualified, (and same team from tournament to tournament), but it's never panned out like that.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Bought the primary witness off? Huh?

Gave her a presumably large sum of money to settle a civil suit. Anyone would have to be naive to think that this didn't play a part in her actions and lack of cooperation in the criminal trial.

[Eaglesfan27]

Dola -

Here is an article about it. Most of the legal experts agree that Kobe bought her off:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baske...-settles_x.htm

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

Gave her a presumably large sum of money to settle a civil suit. Anyone would have to be naive to think that this didn't play a part in her actions and lack of cooperation in the criminal trial.

She never wanted to testify in the court case and I would assume the longer her case went out, the more it would have had too many holes and probably hampered her Civil Case to the point where Kobe might have won the Civil Suit.


So I suppose it would be naive, but in the same sense to think that Pete Carroll had no idea that Bush was getting money...

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

She never wanted to testify in the court case and I would assume the longer her case went out, the more it would have had too many holes and probably hampered her Civil Case to the point where Kobe might have won the Civil Suit.


So I suppose it would be naive, but in the same sense to think that Pete Carroll had no idea that Bush was getting money...

Revisionist history, likely slanted by your Laker colored glasses. She didn't want to testify because Kobe paid her off as soon as possible and because he had his people releasing stuff to the media that shouldn't have been released about her sexual history which is supposed to be protected by rape victim shield laws.

As far as the 2nd point, Bush's accuser keeps delaying his deposition so who knows what really happened, but I'm willing to accept that it is possible that Bush received money and it's possible Pete knew that he did.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

Revisionist history, likely slanted by your Laker colored glasses. She didn't want to testify because Kobe paid her off as soon as possible and because he had his people releasing stuff to the media that shouldn't have been released about her sexual history which is supposed to be protected by rape victim shield laws.

As far as the 2nd point, Bush's accuser keeps delaying his deposition so who knows what really happened, but I'm willing to accept that it is possible that Bush received money and it's possible Pete knew that he did.

I don't need to say more

[Sublime 2]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I think it's silly to compare KG to Kobe, Pierce, Jordan, DWade, LeBron or any other guard/SF who penetrates and thus can take a game over in the final minutes. The only guy in the league you could compare him to is Tim Duncan (maybe Shaq, but if we're talking last 2 minutes, I think Garnett wins there), and he wasn't able to take over games once Manu Ginobili was injured. Post guys rely on teammates to get them the ball, and thus don't have the opportunity to take over games like a swingman/PG can.

Mucho Agreed.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Rape charge + perception of driving Shaq out of LA + general aloofness = Kobe hate

The funny thing about this that people still don't get, especially outside of LA or people who just want to hate Kobe and don't care about what's really going on, was that Shaq was gone because of Shaq, his money demands and his unwillingness to back down against the team or to go out of his way in any way for the team (like, say come into camp in game shape, or work on his FTs). The guy acted like a petulant child for a couple years after leaving LA, constantly taking snipes at everyone Laker, but do people hate on him? No, of course not, he's St. Shaq, he makes me laugh, he must be a good guy, right? Right?

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Well, the God's truth is that everyone loves Shaq so by pitting yourself against him, as Kobe at the least appeared to, was a bad PR move.

Fair or unfair.

And I can call those people who allow themselves to be led that way to be the bleating sheep they are. Fair (and true).

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

And what happens if it was a team like the Spurs who won this year? What would you have done? Or even the Lakers? Why pick the winner of this years NBA championship instead of previous years? What about the team who got you qualified into the Olympics to begin with? Or the team that won the Worlds?

Relax, obviously if SA or LA won, it wouldn't work because of the foreign starters, but it's still a fun exercise. Ask yourself legitimately who would win games between the Celtics and a USA all-star team (sans KG and Pierce). Clearly the all-star team would be more talented, but I think the Celtics would win most because they know how each other play and they know their roles. You can only have so many guys like Kobe, Pierce and Carmelo before a guy like James Posey would be better for the team. Shucks, if PR led by Carlos Arroyo and the UMass backcourt from 1996 (Padilla and Travieso) can do it because they play together often, why wouldn't the NBA champions?

This doesn't even get into the selection issues USA Basketball has. I mean, they're really going to pick Jason Kidd at PG over Deron Williams or Chauncey Billups? Tayshaun Prince is one of the first 5 picked? Tyson Chandler isn't on it despite his phenomenal defense/rebounding and great chemistry with Paul on pick and rolls?

[DaddyTorgo]

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Okay, so I watched for maybe 30 secs before I stopped it. Does this continue be a masturbatory video or does it ever get interesting to anyone outside the Boston area?

[larrymcg421]

I liked the video, but the Bird moment Garnett's talking about (where he jumps up and down grabbing his head) was actually after winning the 1981 conference finals.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I'm just here to say that I'm a Memphis Grizzlies fan, and you people had better not talk shit about Hakim Warrick.

[Sublime 2]

Thought this was funny. Matt Damon showing his Celtic Green in LA.

[Logan]

Damon has always been the man.

[MikeVic]

Hahaha.

[Lorena]

He's so hot.

[MikeVic]

Probably shoves those mantlers up his ass.

[Lorena]

I heard Ellen Page's "roommate" reams her from behind using a strap-on.

[MikeVic]

I am so out of this thread! What a meanie.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Lorena

I heard Ellen Page's "roommate" reams her from behind using a strap-on.

fap fap fap

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by Lorena

I heard Ellen Page's "roommate" reams her from behind using a strap-on.

Did I miss something?

[MikeVic]

Ellen Page is my favouritest celebrity in the world.