Historical Person Draft?

[Chief Rum]

Have we had one of these? I was thinking about running one.

It would have categories like Military Leader, Cultural Icon, Religious Figure, Intellectual, Scribe, Musician, Diplomatic Leader, etc.

Put the best group together and then we vote, as per usual. If it hasn't been done and there's enough interest, I might give it a shot.

If it has been done or no interest, I will probably not do it.

[DaddyTorgo]

we did one i'm fairly certain

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

we did one i'm fairly certain

Heh...I'll have to try to find it. I'm not shocked it wasn't an original idea.

[Barkeep49]

We did historical events, don't think we did historical people.

[Noop]

I don't mind joining...

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

We did historical events, don't think we did historical people.

I'll do a search.

[Buccaneer]

Whatever is decided regarding a historical-type draft, I'm in. I am actually going to be home babysitting for a week starting Wednesday, so the timing could be good.

[RendeR]

I'd be up for trying this idea.

[Chief Rum]

All right, I bumped the event/date draft thread for reference. I didn't find a historical person thread. Is that too similar?

Here's what I am thinking. I will have several categories, probably 10-12. And my general plan is, can't pick from the same nationality/ethnicity for two categories (per player). And can't pick from the same time era for two categories (per player).

I have already given some prospective categories.

Here is what I mean by nationality. If you can argue that the person/ethnicity is at least roughly the same, you can't use them. For instance, I would have Da Vinci and Mussolini are both Italian, even separated by 400 years and numerous changes of political state on the Italian boot. They spoke essentially the same language and lived in the same area. But I would view Da Vinci and Caesar as distinctly different. Far too much time has passed and changes in culture and history are distinctly dissimilar. Caesar would have to be considered "Roman". Does that make sense? So you could pick Mussolini and Caesar if you had two categories for them. But not Mussolini and Da Vinci. Or you could pick Pavarotti and Cicero. But not Pavarotti and Da Vinci.

For time eras, I haven't nailed it down yet, but it would be something like this:

Pre-Greek (1000 BC and B4)
Greece-Turkey (Rise of Greece to Alexander, circa 300 BC)
Rise of Rome (300 BC to Jesus circa 30 AD)
Roman Empire (30 AD to 450 AD)
Dark Ages (450 AD to 1050 AD)
Middle Ages (1050 AD to 1350 AD)
Renaissance (1350 AD to 1550 AD)
Reformation/Age of Exploration (1550 AD to 1750 AD)
Age of Revolution (1750 AD to 1850)
Industrial Revolution (1850 to 1914)
World War I/20s/Great Depression (1914 to 1939)
World War II/Korean War/50s (1914 to 1959)
1960s
1970s
1980s
1990s
2000-Present Day

This is obviously with a Western/American bend, because that is what most people are familiar with, but this would also encapsulate the Eastern/Native American/Arab/Indian (sub-continent)/African timelines as well.

With respect to era and people living inmultiple eras (especially recently), I would argue that that is up to the drafter to choose which era he intends them for. For instance, Nixon had an impact in both the 60s and 70s, and the era chosen by the drafter (and the category for which that person was chosen) would have an impact on how people view the choice. For instance, if I have an "evil" category (thinking about it), and Nixon was drafted but his era was chosen to be the 60s, people might look askance to that, as his disreputable acts (or the ones he is most known for) occurred largely in the 70s.

Anyway, haven't nailed anything down yet and want to see what kind of interest it would draw. Comments and ideas are welcome, as well as interest in playing.

[Chief Rum]

Awesome, thanks for the interest guys. I am going to wait for feedback on what I tossed out above and hash some things out on my own over dinner here, but I was planning on getting this rolling by Tuesday at the latest.

[Noop]

That sounds complex and after finishing my finals I don't think my brain wants to work while it has time off.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Noop

That sounds complex and after finishing my finals I don't think my brain wants to work while it has time off.

I can certainly cut back if that is too much. Mind, you're not trying to find someone from each era. You're just can't overlap (in my concept). But nothing is set in stone. I just thought adding the nationality and time era limitations would introduce a little more strategy to the draft than a straight historical person draft.

Is that too complex?

[Buccaneer]

It's not that it is complex but it would become nebulous. Even your examples above invite confusion and therefore, too much controversy. You say that Caesar and DaVinci would be acceptable but that's not entirely accurate since DaVinci knew Latin, did he not? Anyway, where would draw the line to what would be acceptable vs unacceptable? My thought is to forget nationality but still come up with a twist as not to not make it a straight draft by eras. I'll have to think back on previous drafts to see if I can come up with anything.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

It's not that it is complex but it would become nebulous. Even your examples above invite confusion and therefore, too much controversy. You say that Caesar and DaVinci would be acceptable but that's not entirely accurate since DaVinci knew Latin, did he not? Anyway, where would draw the line to what would be acceptable vs unacceptable? My thought is to forget nationality but still come up with a twist as not to not make it a straight draft by eras. I'll have to think back on previous drafts to see if I can come up with anything.

Yeah, I knew the nationality one might be a little too confusing. I thought maybe the discussion resulting from that would be part of the interest, but it could also detract from that if it goes too far.

[Buccaneer]

How about a matrix of eras and the categories you mentioned? For example, with 10 categories and 10 eras, and 10 picks, you have to have one from each era along with one from each category.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

How about a matrix of eras and the categories you mentioned? For example, with 10 categories and 10 eras, and 10 picks, you have to have one from each era along with one from each category.

Hmm, I can see that. I would cut more eras than from earlier on, I think, as the people most chosen would almost certainly be more from the past 600 years or so.

Maybe something like this?

2000s-Present Day
1980s-1990s
1960s-1970s
WWII -1950s
Pre-WWII 20th cent
1800s
1600-1700s
Renaissance (1400-1600)
Middle Ages (450-1400)
Ancient Times (pre-450)

Or does that cut the old eras too little slack? I can see going to 12 picks/12 eras to give a little more room there. But I don't know if 12 would be too many picks. I know I can come up with 12 categories.

[Chief Rum]

If it were 12, I would probably change Ancient Times to Rome (300 BC to 450 AD), Greece (1000 AD-300 BC) and Egypt/Ancient Times (pre 1000 BC).

Or split Ancient Times into two, and expand one of the later eras (maybe 1600s and 1700s separate).

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

If it were 12, I would probably change Ancient Times to Rome (300 BC to 450 AD), Greece (1000 AD-300 BC) and Egypt/Ancient Times (pre 1000 BC).

Or split Ancient Times into two, and expand one of the later eras (maybe 1600s and 1700s separate).

I would go with the latter. The former would be too restrictive in picking a Roman or Greek when all other eras are open for any cultures.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

I would go with the latter. The former would be too restrictive in picking a Roman or Greek when all other eras are open for any cultures.

Yeah, I was leaning that way, too. The 1700s and 1600s had some very distinct and separate historical events and people in one of mankind's most volatile periods. It would be a shame to limit each drafter to just one person from those two centuries.

Would you combine Greek and Roman periods, and just have an Ancient period for before Grecan times? Or would you have Rome by itself and Greece/Ancient Times lumped together?

I orginally leaned to the former, but not so sure.

[Buccaneer]

Would you combine Greek and Roman periods

Yes. I personally can think of more historical persons pre-Greek/Roman than I can otherwise.

[Chief Rum]

Okay, so a prelim list of categories would be as follows:

2000s-Present Day
1980s-1990s
1960s-1970s
WWII -1950s
Pre-WWII 20th cent
1800s
1700s
1600s
Renaissance (1400-1600)
Middle Ages (450-1400)
Rome & Greece (600 BC-450 AD)
Ancient Times (Pre 600 BC)

My tentative categories, for right now:

Military Leader
Religious Leader
Intellectual
Ruler/Diplomatic Leader
Cultural Icon
Evil Historical Person (moral evil)
Good Historical Person (moral good)
Scribe
Musician
Artist (Painter/Sculptor/etc.)

Hmm, trying to think of two others or considering breaking down two of the above...

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Yes. I personally can think of more historical persons pre-Greek/Roman than I can otherwise.

Well shit, it was during your youth - of course you remember it better.

[ColtCrazy]

Love history, so I wouldn't be opposed to joining if there's space. Sounds very interesting.

[Buccaneer]

I would call 600 BC-450 AD the "Classical Age".

[Buccaneer]

Military Leader
Religious Leader
Intellectual
Ruler/Diplomatic Leader
Cultural Icon
Evil Historical Person (moral evil)
Good Historical Person (moral good)
Scribe
Musician
Artist (Painter/Sculptor/etc.)

At first glance, it appears that there is too much overlap. The joy of this game is in the decision-making. If you have a person that can perfectly fit into 5 cateogies, it takes some of the decision-making away.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

At first glance, it appears that there is too much overlap. The joy of this game is in the decision-making. If you have a person that can perfectly fit into 5 cateogies, it takes some of the decision-making away.

Yeah, I was thinking there should be some overlap, so that once again, some strategy comes in, sorta like the Literature Draft. I had the first pick in that one, and I chose the Bible. I could have put it in several different categories, and chose History. That choice was a source of somne discussion as to whether I had placed it in the correct category, and no doubt impacted how my draft was voted on.

Take MLK Jr. for this one. Could fit in Cultural Icon or Good Historical Person. Or Genghis Khan could be Military Leader or Ruler. Where the drafter puts them would be another key element on which the voters to judge the final lists.

But I don't know if the drafters would enjoy that challenge, or if they would want it more defined. Maybe we can get some more feedback on that.

[Swaggs]

Jesus FTW?

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

Jesus FTW?

What, are you drafting already?

[Barkeep49]

I'd love to do this.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

Jesus FTW?

yeah but don't we need a fictitious category for a fictitious figure?

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

At first glance, it appears that there is too much overlap. The joy of this game is in the decision-making. If you have a person that can perfectly fit into 5 cateogies, it takes some of the decision-making away.

I disagree actually. The more overlap you have the harder it is to get that perfect selection in each category. The judging on this is going to be VERY subjective as well. Everyone has their own interpretations of what they learned of historical figures.

[ColtCrazy]

I think the category draft works better than a timeline one. I think it would add a little strategy on who you want to represent each category, makes it a good challenge. Or are you thinking of combining the two?

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by ColtCrazy

I think the category draft works better than a timeline one. I think it would add a little strategy on who you want to represent each category, makes it a good challenge. Or are you thinking of combining the two?

Yes, it would be a combination. You're free to choose an Intellectual, for instance, from any time period before you make any selection. But let's say you pick one from the Renaissance, you are removing all future Renaissance candidates from the other categories (for yourself). You won't be able to pick a Renaissance military leader or ruler or religious figure, etc.

So it presents a challenge to be careful with what era you are eliminating, along with the category you are choosing to place a person.

I am going to start up the official thread, although it will still be in Signups stage. Assuming we have enough people signed up, I will kick it off late tomorrow night (would be earlier, but I work both jobs tomorrow). Of course, if I get enough signups before I go to bed tonight, I'll start it tonight (but I assume I won't).

[RendeR]

He's talking about a combination. basically a grid where you have ten timeframes and ten categories, its up to you to draft one person from each category and fill in the timeframes. So Ceasar can't be both your leader AND your military man because you'd have the same timeframe.

[RendeR]

DOLA: I love cross posting

[RendeR]

Whoot double dola

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by RendeR

He's talking about a combination. basically a grid where you have ten timeframes and ten categories, its up to you to draft one person from each category and fill in the timeframes. So Ceasar can't be both your leader AND your military man because you'd have the same timeframe.

Yup. And, of course, Caesar can only be picked once by one team, so his choice not only limits him to what category you place him in, and the era he was in, but also eliminates him from consideration by other teams (although they can still draft in the category and era, of course). That might seem self-explanatory, but thought I would toss that out there.

[AENeuman]

This sounds great, can't wait to judge others...

Combo idea keeps it being too wide open, ie lit draft (with so many good un-picked peeps) and more like the date draft, which was super.

Thinking there should be a female catergory. Also, a musician is not an artist? is a writer of an historical document an artist or a scribe?

[ColtCrazy]

Ok, thanks, I get it now....that does add a little strategy to it. Very cool, I'm in.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by AENeuman

This sounds great, can't wait to judge others...

Combo idea keeps it being too wide open, ie lit draft (with so many good un-picked peeps) and more like the date draft, which was super.

Thinking there should be a female catergory. Also, a musician is not an artist? is a writer of an historical document an artist or a scribe?

Heh...I added the woman category to the list, although I want to go on record saying I came up with that idea myself and added it in before reading your post. But, yes, good idea.

A musician is an artist, of course, but it was tough to come up with a generic term that would include both sculptors and painters and whoever the heck else qualifies. The idea is that musicians are artists of music, and they have their own category. Thus, they should be selected for the musician category, and painters/sculptors should be picked for the Artist category.

Any author/writer qualifies under the scribe category, no matter what he or she writes. They are artists, too, of course, but like musuicians, they have their own category and do not belong in the artist category. Hope that makes sense.

This doesn't necessarily stop people from selecting musicians or authors in the artist category, I would guess, but I hope that voters will vote with this category definition in mind and would penalize drafters that choose to ignore it.

[Chief Rum]

I have set up the new thread, and those who have expressed interest in drafting, I have put you in the player list there. Please read the first post there, though, and confirm your interest there. You have first come, first serve until we have 12 people signed up. Thanks!

Here is the thread:

http://operationsports.com/fofc/show...=1#post1758084

[sterlingice]

Can Bucc draft himself?

SI

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Can Bucc draft himself?

SI

But which era would he use?!?

[AENeuman]

Chief, thanks for the clarification.

Is classical age really 800 plus years? From Egypt to Visigoths? I think becasue there are so (too) many great chocies here it may come down to this category, or make the category a wash. just an observation...

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by AENeuman

Chief, thanks for the clarification.

Is classical age really 800 plus years? From Egypt to Visigoths? I think becasue there are so (too) many great chocies here it may come down to this category, or make the category a wash. just an observation...

Yeah, that was a tough one. You can see above where Bucc and I are debating how to break that one down. I was leaning toward the Greek/Roman breakdown. It came down to break that down or break the 1600s-1700s down. In the end, I felt that those two centuries would provide a lot more source historical persons than the Classical Age. I could have broken some of the other eras, but I really felt it was hard to do. We have so much more information on the recent decades than we do of ancient times, I thought it might be unfair to have the 20th century have less categories than it did, and the 1800s, Renaissance and Middle Ages (already pretty long) certainly had enough history that they deserved to nab an era as well.

So the Classical Age will be an interesting one to watch, I suspect.

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Yeah, that was a tough one. You can see above where Bucc and I are debating how to break that one down. I was leaning toward the Greek/Roman breakdown. It came down to break that down or break the 1600s-1700s down. In the end, I felt that those two centuries would provide a lot more source historical persons than the Classical Age. I could have broken some of the other eras, but I really felt it was hard to do. We have so much more information on the recent decades than we do of ancient times, I thought it might be unfair to have the 20th century have less categories than it did, and the 1800s, Renaissance and Middle Ages (already pretty long) certainly had enough history that they deserved to nab an era as well.

So the Classical Age will be an interesting one to watch, I suspect.

Sorry to keep nagging, but 5 of the 12 HISTORICAL picks will be from the last 100 years. not sure if that gets to the spirit of your topic. but, be that as it may, it will still be fun.

just a thought: while the 1980's-90's were fun, not sure why you couldn't combine it/split it with 60's-70's and 2000's. that could give you 600 BC-0 and 0-450AD

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by AENeuman

Sorry to keep nagging, but 5 of the 12 HISTORICAL picks will be from the last 100 years. not sure if that gets to the spirit of your topic. but, be that as it may, it will still be fun.

No, that's okay. It was more a reflection of what people are familiar with. As the most recent complete century, there is a lot to draw from there. It was also the century that saw more war and strife than in any other era, and more technological advances than in any other era. I suspect some of the categories will almost completely come from the 20th century, if for any reason, than because it may be hard to come up with good choices from before that. And this will be voted on by the general FOFC public, too, so even if I have 12 drafters with degrees in history, the voters won't. So this ensures that the people drafted will have some degree of familiarity for those voting.

Nothing's perfect, but I have people enjoy it.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by AENeuman

just a thought: while the 1980's-90's were fun, not sure why you couldn't combine it/split it with 60's-70's and 2000's. that could give you 600 BC-0 and 0-450AD

Hmm, but why 0 for the central breaking point? If I were to do something like this, I would probably combine the 60s-70- and 80s, and make the Present Day category, the 90s-Present Day.

I think the main issue is that the primary historical fodder from the Classical Age happened prior to 0 AD. Of course plenty happened between 0 and 450 AD, but it pales in comparison to the entire Greek era, the related Turkish rise and the rise of Rome. Largely, the era after 0 AD is stagnant, with only the Birth of Christ and the fall of the Roman Empire being truly noteworthy historical events, IMO. Intellectual and artistic development is also largely reserved for BC.

In my discussion with Bucc about breaking it into Greek and Roman eras, I suggested 300 BC and the rise of Alexander the Great as a breaking point to have two eras, but Bucc is right that that is too limiting (more for the Greek era), especially since China's history also doesn't particularly mesh well with that break.

[Chief Rum]

But this is a discussion we can continue to have (and I would encourage it). Nothing is final until I have 12 drafters anyway, and it's obvious if I get that, it won't happen until tomorrow. Plus, I work both jobs tomorrow, so the draft for certain won't kick off until late Monday (probably Tuesday morning, if the first drafter is an East Coaster).

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by RendeR

I disagree actually. The more overlap you have the harder it is to get that perfect selection in each category. The judging on this is going to be VERY subjective as well. Everyone has their own interpretations of what they learned of historical figures.

I understand. There seems to be two schools of thought in playing this game, but both are valid. One is really look at the cateogry and make the best fit, while others focus more on the best list (i.e., picking the best person/event/object/etc. possible). I tend to the latter in participating and voting, as in the Lit draft where I just went off the list and pretty much ignored the category. It's a subtle difference where one wants to think of the best person and the category becomes secondary, versus picking the category and trying to come up with a good selection.