POL - youtube debate

[Flasch186]

anyone watching?

Gravel is kinda crazy, no?

[Bubba Wheels]

Gravel had the best statement: "Follow the money to know why it will be business as usual when any one of these candidates standing on stage get elected."

I'll add, Biden impresses me most overall.

[Jas_lov]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Gravel had the best statement: "Follow the money to know why it will be business as usual when any one of these candidates standing on stage get elected."

I'll add, Biden impresses me most overall.

I'm glad the debate focused on the most pressing issues facing America today like where Barack Obama's kids went to school and Joe Biden wanting to bang Dennis Kucinich's wife. I almost threw up when Bill Richardson said we should include illegal aliens in a universal health care coverage, and for some reason none of the top tier candidates were asked this question. The only good part about the debate was Mike Gravel stirring the pot. Someone should give him his own TV show.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by Jas_lov

I'm glad the debate focused on the most pressing issues facing America today like where Barack Obama's kids went to school and Joe Biden wanting to bang Dennis Kucinich's wife. I almost threw up when Bill Richardson said we should include illegal aliens in a universal health care coverage, and for some reason none of the top tier candidates were asked this question. The only good part about the debate was Mike Gravel stirring the pot. Someone should give him his own TV show.

Your onto the very thing I saw as doubtless many others did. This thing was obviously orchestrated by someone (including Cooper and whatever powers-that-be) for the benefit of some.

Most glaring case in point: Dodd was asked his 20th question before Gravel got his 3rd one. Gravel at one point can even be heard stating something about the 'fairness' of Cooper. Be interesting to see what, if any, other media types make mention of this. For being the biggest nothing Dodd sure got more than his share of spotlight and questions.

[Flasch186]

me too. I couldnt believe that Richardson said that....scratch him off the list.

[Buccaneer]

When is a true democracy or a towne hall not one?

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

I'll add, Biden impresses me most overall.

Who are you and what you have done with Bubba Wheels?

[spleen1015]

Gravel is a crazy old koot.

Our soldiers are dying in vain? You're out of your freaking mind, dipshit.

[Flasch186]

My synopsis:

It obviously played out in some candidates favor and not in others. I dont know if that was planned ahead of time, or simply momentum of the race as the leaders in a race are going to get the most attention. Hillary, Obama, and Dodd had the most opportunity to shine whether or not they took advantage while Biden was a sniper out there.

Hillary and Obama were good and probably didnt hurt themselves (which may have been the gameplan) while some other just killed their efforts, Gravel and Kucinich. I dont know who told Kucinich that a texting campaign was a good idea but when a medium is known for .10 a text (even if its not true) it probably isnt the best way to encourage people to communicate.

Biden played the "realist" card well and used it to thump others. While the Arizona Governor probably lost the entire race by stating that illegal immigrants should and would be covered under his universal health care plan. Not going to work when a majority of the voting Americans were against the immigration bill and there is a growing swell of anti-immigration feelings nationally.

I'd say percentage wise Biden helped himself the most, with Edwards a distant second....

Richardson hurt himself the most...

Gravel, Kucinich, Clinton, Obama, Dodd all came out probably where they were before the debate took place.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

My synopsis:

It obviously played out in some candidates favor and not in others. I dont know if that was planned ahead of time, or simply momentum of the race as the leaders in a race are going to get the most attention. Hillary, Obama, and Dodd had the most opportunity to shine whether or not they took advantage while Biden was a sniper out there.

Hillary and Obama were good and probably didnt hurt themselves (which may have been the gameplan) while some other just killed their efforts, Gravel and Kucinich. I dont know who told Kucinich that a texting campaign was a good idea but when a medium is known for .10 a text (even if its not true) it probably isnt the best way to encourage people to communicate.

Biden played the "realist" card well and used it to thump others. While the Arizona Governor probably lost the entire race by stating that illegal immigrants should and would be covered under his universal health care plan. Not going to work when a majority of the voting Americans were against the immigration bill and there is a growing swell of anti-immigration feelings nationally.

I'd say percentage wise Biden helped himself the most, with Edwards a distant second....

Richardson hurt himself the most...

Gravel, Kucinich, Clinton, Obama, Dodd all came out probably where they were before the debate took place.

I'll agree with this. Biden suddenly becomes the dark horse. Hillary chugs along pre-scripted. Obama has the charisma of an RFK campaigning without the toughness. Marshmellow center, watch him flinch when Gravel calls him out.

Edwards seems clownish somehow, maybe his vanity. Richardson pandered to the Hispanic vote and cut himself off from the mainstream. Gravel and Kucinich continue to provide the much needed standup entertainment.

[DanGarion]

Is it me or does Obama and The Rock have the same exact voice?

I'd love to hear him say he's going to give Hilary the People's Elbow...

My opinion, even though I don't normally vote Dem, and I'm a registered Lib (previously Rep), I was really impressed with Biden. He had realistic answers for the questions.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by dangarion

Is it me or does Obama and The Rock have the same exact voice?

I'd love to hear him say he's going to give Hilary the People's Elbow...

My opinion, even though I don't normally vote Dem, and I'm a registered Lib (previously Rep), I was really impressed with Biden. He had realistic answers for the questions.

I have always thought that about Obama's voice and have never heard anybody else state that. I find it hilarious...if you smell...what the rock...is cookin.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

I'll agree with this. Biden suddenly becomes the dark horse. Hillary chugs along pre-scripted. Obama has the charisma of an RFK campaigning without the toughness. Marshmellow center, watch him flinch when Gravel calls him out.

Edwards seems clownish somehow, maybe his vanity. Richardson pandered to the Hispanic vote and cut himself off from the mainstream. Gravel and Kucinich continue to provide the much needed standup entertainment.

I have to say there is something really hilarious about Bubba Wheels analyzing the Democratic debate.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by path12

I have to say there is something really hilarious about Bubba Wheels analyzing the Democratic debate.

What's even more astonishing (to me, at least) is that he's not completely off base.

[JPhillips]

Biden has no shot. He has very little primary support and nowhere near enough money. He always sounds good in debates, but his biggest accomplishments are towing the line for the Delaware based credit card companies. He's almost as loathed on the left as McCain is on the right.

[MrBigglesworth]

Biden also has a history of putting his foot in his mouth.

Originally Posted by Flasch186

While the Arizona Governor probably lost the entire race by stating that illegal immigrants should and would be covered under his universal health care plan. Not going to work when a majority of the voting Americans were against the immigration bill and there is a growing swell of anti-immigration feelings nationally.

Polling on the immigration issue tends to suggest otherwise. 45% either were in favor of the immigration bill or thought it didn't go far enough in helping out immigrants, while 29% thought it wasn't tough enough on immigration:

"As you may know, the U.S. Senate has been considering a bill to change the way the government handles the issue of illegal immigration. Based on what you have read or heard about all the proposals in the Senate immigration bill, do you favor or oppose that bill?" If oppose: "Do you oppose the Senate immigration bill MOSTLY because you think it goes too far toward helping illegal immigrants, or MOSTLY because it does not go far enough toward helping illegal immigrants?"


.
Favor/ Goes Too Far/ Doesn't Go Far Enough/ Other Reason/ Unsure

30/28/15/4/22

...and there isn't much of a growing swell of anti-immigrationism over the past year and a half:

"Would you say that immigration helps the United States more than it hurts it, or immigration hurts the United States more than it helps it?"


.
Helps More
Than Hurts Hurts More
Than Helps Unsure
% % %


6/8-11/07
46 44 10


7/21-24/06
45 42 13


6/9-12/06
44 45 11


4/21-24/06
45 45 10


12/05
37 53 10

The polling seems to show that the same people are anti-immigrant, they are just louder about it, and a large proportion of them would never vote for a Democrat anyway.

I haven't analyzed it, but off the cuff I would say that illegals would need to be covered, otherwise everyone would have to carry a government ID with them at all times or else not get medical treatment. And even then we run into the same moral dilemma we have now: do we let people without coverage just die on the street outside the hospital? It seems like the overhead and the positive externalities wouldn't justify the savings in costs.

[Flasch186]

Bigs, could you please source your stats?

[BrianD]

I'm not sure what those polls tell us. How much did the people polled know about the bill? That leaves a lot of interpretation for "a bill to change the way the government handles the issue of illegal immigration".

Also, the second poll was how immigration helps the country, not illegal immigration. I still maintain that a very large percentage of people who are bothered by illegal immigration and just fine with legal immigration.

[Flasch186]

http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServe...h_researchd74c

[st.cronin]

Haven't watched the debate, but I had no idea Biden was running. I've liked him for a long time.

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

I have always thought that about Obama's voice and have never heard anybody else state that. I find it hilarious...if you smell...what the rock...is cookin.

You can say his first name in a way to sound like "The Rock." If you smelllllll what ba-rack is cookin!

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

Bigs, could you please source your stats?

http://www.pollingreport.com/immigration.htm

Sorry.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

http://www.pollingreport.com/immigration.htm

Sorry.

The link I put in there has some polls with results that are quite different than yours. I dont know which one's are right but I would say, from what I have seen and heard as a small view into the issue has been that almost no one supports universal health coverage for illegal immigrants. I also have seen that there is almost unanimous support from those not linked with the business lobby for raids on company's that make it a practice of hiring them. There is great support (however misled it is) for a fence. Huge support for enforcement of the laws on the books and new laws that would effect illegal immigrants (how? I dont know but laws usually are stated as a move toward more leniency). You add these up and it is not a great support for illegal immigration's movement to be legitimized. Youre right, it seems most people do NOT know a good solution but they know that what "is" now is not working.

Regardless, without letting the thread go too far off base, The Governor's statement that UHC should cover illegals will get him toasted by the far far left and hammered by the middle and right. If you dont win the middle youre going to have a tough go of things.

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

The link I put in there has some polls with results that are quite different than yours. I dont know which one's are right...

FAIR is the biggest anti-immigration institution in the country, so I think it's fair to say they are more likely to cherry pick their data than a site that lists nearly every poll it can get its hands on.

But in any case, I don't think that the anti-illegal immigrant sentiment is as big as you think it is. Most people will prob be against covering illegals when they first hear about it, but my sense is that it's the best way to go about it because it will save money in the long run. I don't think it is something that would sink Richardson's already low chances, a lot of candidates have positions on issues that a majority of the country disagree with. Hell, Hillary is pro-war, on the wrong side of the biggest issue of the day, and she is leading the national polling so far.

[Flasch186]

you assume people get educated on the issues instead of voting based on the impressions and sound bites? I dont think that they do get educated, for the most part, and that is unfortunate but one ad about UHC covering illegal immigrants and he's through. Although, your point about slim chances is taken. I was simply saying he was sunk there based on the debate IMO.

the point, or direction of the thread, when I summarized my take on it was that of which who hurt themselves the most...I thought of the people out there he did. That was, in my view, a comparison of where the were pre-debate vs. post and I'd say with most people ending up about the same on both, he would've varied the most downward.

On your site alone, i can also find many polls that support an opposing view of your take...not sure what that means, but I stand by my statement that there is a majority of people (as supported in some of the polls) that not only support a more secure border, but sending of as many illegals home as possible, etc. so the results are not only incongruent but difficult to interpret.

[JW]

As far as I'm concerned, the youtube debate in general brings to mind Marshall McLuhan's old saying, "The medium is the message." McLuhan wrote this as tv came into prominence. Now the internet is coming into prominence, and I think the adage remains true.

From Wikipedia, which gives a pretty good summation of the idea:

"The Medium is the Message" is a phrase meaning that the generic form of media is more important than any "meaning" or "content" that the medium conveys. For Marshall McLuhan, the content of media is irrelevant. The form of the medium itself is what changes our consciousness.

The phrase was coined by McLuhan in his 1964 book, Understanding Media: The Extensions of Man.

How is the internet changing our consciousness. A lot of people smarter than I am have written about that, but some of the ideas are increased interconnectiveness of all people around the world and increased democratization. But on the other hand the manipulation of the medium remains a danger. So I think the youtube debate was a manifestation of the growing power of the internet and how tv, recognizing that power is attempting to use it. Maybe the youtube debate gave the people greater access to the candidates. Or perhaps it created the illusion of greater access.

[Buccaneer]

The illusion is still there because even though we have access to more information, it is simply more information that we don't care about. The internet is the new medium for getting elected but in of itself, it does not make Wash DC more democratic.