Contacting Corporate

[st.cronin]

I will just say this, without taking a particular position: Almost everything I can think of in life is getting better. Cancer rates are down, tvs and tv programming are better, cars are safer, people are kinder to animals, etc. But flying is a much, much worse experience than it was 15 years ago, or 10 years ago, and the trend is downward.

[molson]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I will just say this, without taking a particular position: Almost everything I can think of in life is getting better. Cancer rates are down, tvs and tv programming are better, cars are safer, people are kinder to animals, etc. But flying is a much, much worse experience than it was 15 years ago, or 10 years ago, and the trend is downward.

I honestly don't see much of a difference from pre-9/11, but I guess me (and I think it was Troy) are alone there. The only real difference is people around me complaining and not understanding the rules.

[st.cronin]

Molson, I'm not even talking about security. I mean, that's a little bit of it, but its not remotely all of it.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Molson, I'm not even talking about security. I mean, that's a little bit of it, but its not remotely all of it.

What's different? A few tweaks at security.

Check in lines are easier and faster than they've ever been.

Food and beer are incredibly overpriced. Parking is about the same as it always has been.

Baggage is better in most airports. I rarely have over a ten minute wait for bags.

I hate not seeing my family and friends right after I get off a plane, but I still see them five minutes later.

In flight is about the same as it's always been. Coke, cheap snack, expensive add ons.

Honestly, other than 10 minutes longer at security and 10 minutes less in the check in line, where are the major differences?

This is for any of you who are bothered about flying. Is there something I'm missing here?

[molson]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Molson, I'm not even talking about security. I mean, that's a little bit of it, but its not remotely all of it.

Well the whole system has gotten less efficient in terms of delayed flights, lost baggage, missed connections, Jetblue incidents, so I'd agree with that.

Different thread topic, but it's pretty dissapointing that consumer transportation has advanced so little in the last 50 years.

[flere-imsaho]

I continue to be amused by the recording in O'Hare that says "The Department of Homeland Security has just raised the threat level to Orange...."

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I continue to be amused by the recording in O'Hare that says "The Department of Homeland Security has just raised the threat level to Orange...."

Yeah, I wondered about that in April when my red-eye landed at, like, 5:30 in the morning.

"So if the threat level is Orange, why did it take me five minutes to get through security in LAX? Should I be worried?"

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Hell, I'm not even debating the security measures.

My attitude is, "What's the point?"

Really. You can get pissed off about it, choose not to fly, act like a jerk in line, or just shut up and go through the metal detector.

Yes, it's insanity that you can't take nail clippers on a flight, but a ring of keys is just fine. Anyone with half a brain can do a lot of damage with some keys. Hell, my Saturn key could be used as a shank with little problems. It's also insane a grandma is as likely to be singled out for special search as a 25 year old Muslim from the Israeli settlements.

You can make well thought out, passionate responses as to why our security sucks. Yet at the end of the day you have to realize that it really is coming down to waiting in line for about 15 minutes that this particular fight is about.

And you always had to stand in that same line and do many of the same things anyway. We aren't even talking the full 15 minutes here. You always had to go through the metal detector, you always had to put your bags through the xray machine. You always had to take your keys and cell phone off.

We add shoes, a different bin for a computer, and the fact that nail clippers/lighters/liquid can't be taken through and it's a disaster that's cause for not flying and worthy of this passion?

If it is to you, that's good. Complain to the airlines. Complain to the TSA.

But please, for the love of God, don't believe every psycho who has a nasty story about TSA agents. Don't take the one story that happens to be true and paint the entire system as a failure. Don't try to make it sound like going through security is going to strip you of all your dignity and that going through Dante's stages of Hell would be a more enjoyable experience.

Be realistic in your concerns and fair in your criticisms. Is that to much to ask?

Oh well. Time to go back and edit out that previous post about TroyF making well thought out posts...

Seriously, tho. My second post in the thread started out: "The worst I've ever seen with TSA is that they can be a little rude, but no more than, say, a bad checker at a grocery store or something like that. No real abuse of power or anything. So, I'm not among those complaining about the few bad TSA incidents. My contention is that we shouldn't have to have this at that airport. It's a philisophical difference."

Again, with the "most of these stories are overblown and/or fake". I get it! You're already preaching to the choir with that point. I acknowledged it a long time ago. I'm not arguing that point or even using it, I'm agreeing with you

Secondly, I don't see any instance where I advocated being an ass to TSA and that seems to be the second main defense. I get in line like everyone else and do what I'm supposed to. Nowhere have I said that people shouldn't follow the rules or anything like that.

Which lead me to the more salient points above:

Why "waste" all of this energy? It's not as if I've spent a family fortune (as if I had one) to crusade against taking off my shoes at the airport. Why do we argue about sports or politics in general on this board? We all have our pet peeves and our different outlets- this just happens to be those for me. I think a just as substantial question would be why such vitriol for a debate that is no different than many on here? About a topic that one of the primary "defenses" is "why do you even care"?

Myself, I'm trying to change people's minds that this is fundamentally a bad idea. You can easily say "it's the airlines and if you want to fly on a plane then you have to play by their rules. Of course it is. Again, see my previous parargraph. But if enough people change their minds about it, then the airlines and/or the government will have to do something. That's how things work (sometimes), right?

SI

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by molson

I'm curious, what's your idea of reasonable airport security? If you were in charge of TSA, what would be the security procedure?

We already have screeners with only a high school education, we screen only a small number of checked bags for explosives, and use metal detectors from the 1970s. Where do you want to cut back?

An excellent question as it cuts to the heart of the matter.

I'm ok with the "separate laptop from bag"- it's something that makes sense as we have to change with technology. Heck, I go onto a lot of sites where they make me turn my phone and laptop on and off just to make sure it actually does something. Even this makes sense.

The two I take a lot of issue with, the latter being my real breaking point last year, are the shoes and the liquids. These are both because of possible plots, months and now years ago, that were *foiled*. Yet here we are, 6 years after a plot that was so bad it even made it through security and failed, and we're still taking off our shoes as if this were still a credible threat. Again, referring to a previous post of mine, do we just keep tacking on whatever half arsed security measure comes from every badly foiled plot that didn't come to fruition just because it's in the public's consciousness?

What happens if we hear there is going to be a "bra bomber" just like the shoe bomber? I could see some increased precautions and it would be reasonable for a few weeks surrounding the credible intelligence estimated time of the plot. But how long do you think women are going to put up with that afterwards and still fly on planes?

Another major point to look at would be: Is all the increased money well spent or just a placebo to pacify the public? Is it worth spending all of this other money on increased security that has such a diminishing return on our safety? I bet we would get more bang for our taxpayer buck putting it towards fighting drunk driving or more police or education but this is a "sexier" cause. Like funding AIDS reasearch instead of looking at heart disease. Hell, if the money is doing little to no good, wouldn't it be much better back in our own pockets?

So, in short, go back to our metal detectors and allow no guns or knives or explosives. Check laptops and cell phones- again, if they want to make people turn them on and off, that even makes sense. Again, it risks further line slowdown but seems like a reasonable precaution. I would increase the number of bags that are checked with the explosive pads but I'm not sure this is feasable. But, for reason's sake, leave shoes and liquids alone- it's just absurd and pandering to paranoid pansies (sorry, couldn't resist the alliteration for the second time).

Now onto the, ahem, less excellent points...

Originally Posted by molson

The reason you do sound like petulant children to me is that, as someone said above, you're talking as though you have some kind of entitlement to travel with the least possible amount of inconvience to meet YOUR desired saftey risk (which is a pretty impressive calculation you're able to come up without any access to classified government intellligence information). This sense of privlege comes out when you're essentially demanding an explanation of every little thing you're asked to do.

I love the classic defense of "you don't have 100% of all classified information in an imperfectly closed system so you can't possibly make a judgement". Get in line behind the "you don't have kids so you can't tell me that my screaming kid in a high class restaurant is misbehaving" parent and "don't tell me I'm a bad pitcher with my 18.00 ERA because you've never played baseball above high school" jock. Again, don't have to be an expert in the field to be in the same ballpark, hence my original comment of "I'm going to pull some numbers out of my behind, but to at least give some scale to this". Would you like the napkin sketch I did to come up with these numbers- I can guarantee they aren't going to be accurate to 5 significant digits but at least it's better than your commentary of "higher" or "lower" like we're on a game show where you're probably going to be right because I'm locked into one number and you have half of infinity to choose from.

Originally Posted by molson

So people should just stop whining, take their damn shoes off, and if they don't like it, take Amtrack. This isn't the government searching your house or listening to your phone calls

Funny you should mention our governemt searching our house or listening to phone calls (without warrants)... but that's another topic for another time.

You have your right to tell me to stop whining just as I have a right to state my point to try and convince people it's not just whining. And that's what my point is here. Again, to the previous post, I'm not advocating being a jerk to TSA or not complying if you want to fly. If someone wants to take Amtrack, fine- I have some friends who have started because the time invested is similar and the ride much more pleasant. Myself, I'm just trying to change minds so that enough people will think this silly and things will change.

SI