Patrick Roy retiring

[TroyF]

I allowed that I had never heard you label Lakers' fans as a whole in the manner that many others who hold similar views to you on the Lakers have done. This was merely a circumstance of you being a definite member of a group that has a very anti-Laker fan bias

Well, at least you allowed that you've never heard me bash Laker fans.

You go so far as to so that such thoughts are impossible for a normal (i.e. YOU) person to conceive

It was and is highly inconceivable to me. In the discussions it was said that a "white" Charles Rogers would have been picked lower. I'm still stunned at that and will admit to that. I don't buy it for a second. The fact that I could never find any evidence to support such a claim (even taking the time to go to the library and DIG for as much information as I possibly could on the subject) shows me I had reason for disbelief.

TroyF, I still have quite a high opinion of you, but, dammit, sometimes you just say shit that really pisses me off.

If demanding proof pisses you off, I'm sorry. I don't believe anyone saying something makes it correct or means that I have to buy into it. It doesn't even mean I have to believe it can happen. I posted what I did "off the cuff". After thinking about it, I researched it and found nothing. If I make statement that someone finds disbelieving, I make the case that it could happen or prove my point with facts.

If I'm outright insulted, I tune out the conversation entirely. If you felt I insulted you, again, I'm sorry. I never meant to insult you. Ever.

Lastly, please, ALL LAKER fans, stop being so damned defensive. Yes, I believe your team gets more calls. Yes, sometimes I belive it gets to a downright horrific level (see Minnesota or Sacremento) It doesn't mean I hate all Laker fans. It doesn't even mean I hate the team themselves. (when I was young, you were either for Magic and the Lakers or Bird and the Celtics. I was for Magic)

I hate the superstar system of officiating which the Lakers happen to be involved in more than others because they have two stars. I'm sorry if it comes off as anti Laker. A few years ago, you would have heard me blowing up about Larry Johnson's miracle 4 point play against the Pacers. (that really never happened)

I also believe the Duke/Maryland championship game was officiated horribly a couple of years ago. I guess now I should be worried some Duke fans think I hate them too? Sorry if that comes off the wrong way, but it doesn't sit real well with me to get attacked about something I never did.

TroyF

[Chief Rum]

Originally posted by TroyF
Well, at least you allowed that you've never heard me bash Laker fans.

That quote you quoted with this response was actually my second reference to the fact that I have not seen you personally bash Lakers fans for being Lakers fans. You musthave missed the first one in the previous post.

It was and is highly inconceivable to me. In the discussions it was said that a "white" Charles Rogers would have been picked lower. I'm still stunned at that and will admit to that. I don't buy it for a second. The fact that I could never find any evidence to support such a claim (even taking the time to go to the library and DIG for as much information as I possibly could on the subject) shows me I had reason for disbelief.

I'm not saying that would happen. Others might believe that would be true. I merely believed it to be possible. You don't even allow for the possibility, and that boggles my mind. Apparently, racism against white people is impossible.

You have yet to respond to the logic of the circumstances I laid out for possible such occurrences at the lower levels of football, nor have you accounted for the high percentage of minorities present in most of our major sports, at least as compared to their relative percentages of our national population.

If demanding proof pisses you off, I'm sorry. I don't believe anyone saying something makes it correct or means that I have to buy into it. It doesn't even mean I have to believe it can happen. I posted what I did "off the cuff". After thinking about it, I researched it and found nothing. If I make statement that someone finds disbelieving, I make the case that it could happen or prove my point with facts.

It is amazing to me that you still don't get my main point. This has nothing to do with the arguments we are proposing. This has to do with my perception of your insensitivity in your remarks. I have also already allowed that I am likely being extremely and unnecessarily oversensitive. But on the other hand, as I have tried to explain, I also believe you could be more sensitive. It's your "off the cuff" statements that are pissing me off, not you challenging me for proof. Challenge away--that's not my issue with you right now.

I have merely made a hypothetical supposition. I'm not trying to make a case study about it. I am pointing out certain facts and noting that a logical combination of them could be an underlying cause to reverse racism.

If I'm outright insulted, I tune out the conversation entirely. If you felt I insulted you, again, I'm sorry. I never meant to insult you. Ever.

I believe you. But it starts to ring hollow when it is repeated. I know tone is difficult to convey over the Internet, but sometimes I get this enormous feeling of condescension on your part in your posts. I would feel better if we didn't have the run-ins int he first place, rather than having them and then having to apologize later.

I'll make you a deal. You stop making off the cuff statements without re-reading them and being sure they aren't insensitive, and I'l stop being so damn oversensitive.

Lastly, please, ALL LAKER fans, stop being so damned defensive. Yes, I believe your team gets more calls. Yes, sometimes I belive it gets to a downright horrific level (see Minnesota or Sacremento) It doesn't mean I hate all Laker fans. It doesn't even mean I hate the team themselves. (when I was young, you were either for Magic and the Lakers or Bird and the Celtics. I was for Magic)

I hate the superstar system of officiating which the Lakers happen to be involved in more than others because they have two stars. I'm sorry if it comes off as anti Laker. A few years ago, you would have heard me blowing up about Larry Johnson's miracle 4 point play against the Pacers. (that really never happened)

I also believe the Duke/Maryland championship game was officiated horribly a couple of years ago. I guess now I should be worried some Duke fans think I hate them too? Sorry if that comes off the wrong way, but it doesn't sit real well with me to get attacked about something I never did.

TroyF

Once again, in my very first post directed at you, I pointed out that I did not believe you made any such references to Lakers' fans. I merely pointed out that you are a very vocal member of the anti-Laker coalition that exists on this board, so when you make over-generalized comments about fans (even if they aren't Lakers fans but Wings fans), it stands out at the moment. You may not hold to that opinion about Lakers' fans nor joined in with the ripping apart of the team after losing to the Spurs, but I don't recall you stepping up and decrying your colleagues for doing so either. You agree with them on every other point, it seems. How am I to take your silence on this issue then? In my mind, when you don't speak out against them, and you have shown yourself to be of a mind with them on other related issues, that shows me you implicity approve of their actions by your silence.

Saying now that that is not so doesn't exactly ring well. If you felt that way, you should have spoken up when Lakers' fans were getting attacked. If I recall correctly, the only thing you posted about after that was on whether or not Duncan is clutch. And no one on this board said one damn word to stop it until I posted anyway.

Lakers fans don't deserve it. Nor do Red Wings fans. Nor do Cowboys fans. Nor do Yankees fans. Nor any dynasty's fans.

Chief Rum

[TroyF]

Saying now that that is not so doesn't exactly ring well. If you felt that way, you should have spoken up when Lakers' fans were getting attacked. If I recall correctly, the only thing you posted about after that was on whether or not Duncan is clutch. And no one on this board said one damn word to stop it until I posted anyway.

These are a couple of exact quotes from a post I made dated May 18:

1) The Lakers are a GREAT basketball team. Repeat for all of you who think I bash the Lakers without respecting them, A GREAT BASKETBALL TEAM. Yes, I do believe they've got the benefit of some calls over the years. Yes, I do believe Sac. won that series last year. Doesn't mean the Lakers aren't a great team.

4) I really wish the people saying the "dynasty is over" would shut the hell up. The dynasty is not over. I can easily see the Lakers winning another ring next year. I could see them snagging two out of the next three. They aren't finished. No team with two superstars can ever be counted out.

A couple of more from the Kobe thread:

Kobe's showboating doesn't bother me. He's a terrific basketball player.

Kobe isn't the worst offender of this attitude, but he IS an offender. Still, at the end of the day, Kobe is a reason I still watch the NBA. What a brilliant basketball player. What an incredible athlete.

I happened to be on vacation when the Spurs clinched the title. You'll see I made about 2 posts in a 5 day period in that time frame. Sorry if I missed other posts about the issue, but I think in the posts I did make that I gave the Lakers proper respect and never once insulted the Laker fans.

I'm not saying that would happen. Others might believe that would be true. I merely believed it to be possible. You don't even allow for the possibility, and that boggles my mind. Apparently, racism against white people is impossible.

No, you misunderstand. Racism against white people happens on a daily basis. I can allow for the possibilities. I don't buy THAT possibility. (The "white" Charles Rogers thing) Still don't. If it happens, or I ever see proof of it happening, I'll change my mind and buy you a beer. I don't buy it.

You have yet to respond to the logic of the circumstances I laid out for possible such occurrences at the lower levels of football, nor have you accounted for the high percentage of minorities present in most of our major sports, at least as compared to their relative percentages of our national population.

Actually, I did. I've posted a couple of times about how "white" athletes seemed to be slower than "black" athletes many times. Even openly questioned why there weren't more "white" Randy Moss's or Charles Rogers out there. At the lower levels, you'll find that there are plenty of white guys at the skill positions. (even in college) Yet you'll also find that very few of these white guys have size and speed. It's usually one or the other. Why is that? I don't believe it is racism at the lower levels, I think it is something genetic. I remember a Bill James article from a few years ago where he talked about the relationship to speed and race. The black guys he studies held their speed significantly longer than the white players.

The thing is, you see a ton of HS WR and RB who ARE white. Why don't they make it at the next level? Are they ALL not being given the chance? I don't buy into that. They are getting scholarships. They are being recruited. I don't think there is a glut of white Randy Moss type guys who are being tossed aside at the HS level. A couple of reasons for that:

1) I haven't seen any of these guys go to a smaller college and break out. (like say a Tyrone Calico) Nor do I see a lot of 6th to 7th round picks that fit that mold breaking out. (like a Terrell Davis)

2) Nothing in the media about it at all. I understand some whites would be hesitant about making the charge, but not all of them. Not in this society.

Has it happened to some kids? Maybe. I could see some instances where it could happen. Still, I don't see it happening on a regular basis and to change that attitude I will need to see some evidence of it happening.

TroyF