Open letter to Skydog, moderator of the FOF board

[KWhit]

I know Darkiller is a respected member of the board and he's been around a lot longer than I, but it seems to me that he has a political issue that he's looking for any excuse to make a point about.

He was against the war, so the thread in question pissed him off. This has nothing to do with a lack of FOF content. At least that's how it comes across.

As Sgt Hulka once said, "Lighten up, Francis."

[John Galt]

Skippy, I don't why I bother - you make no attempt to understand what any else is saying when you reply. Still, as my leap of faith, I'll give it one more try.

There's nothing wrong with that.

Have you ever asked anyone for advice? For guidance? EVER???

If you haven't you're a liar.

Just because some people turn to God, Allah, the Virgin Mary, Buddah, the Saints, Moses, Vishnu, etc. instead of a spouse, a sibling, a child, a co-worker, a friend, etc. doesn't make it any different.

And for some people there's greater comfort in turning to a higher power.

You are missing the point. Sometimes, prayer allows people to avoid responsibility or makes them less likely to turn inward for the answer. That doesn't mean prayer is ALWAYS bad or that guidance is ALWAYS bad, just that sometimes prayer has a negative effect in this regard.

Yeah, prayer does require faith. I won't deny that.

But I don't see how prayer is dangerous.

You miss the point about believing it is a 2 way conversation. If you believe God speaks back, then people can't contradict that will. Thus prayer serves to justify the irrational (Crusades, Jonestown, etc.).

Prayer doesn't make you less of a human.

There is nothing wrong with humility or being humble. Do you know what the opposite of being humble is. It's called being prideful.

While there is nothing wrong with having pride in yourself, it is wrong when that pride dehumanizes or hurts others.

Please, try to put at least one warrant for your claims, just one. Yes, too much pride can be a problem. My point was that "humility" can be a guise for debasing the human spirit. Making yourself "lowly" and "insignificant" can create a void that strong-willed people can exploit (see Jonestown).

That's not necessarily a bad thing.

If you substitute prayer for action in an obvious situation, yeah, that's probably bad. But how often does that really happen?

If someone prays for people to be safe, that belief in the prayers can actually substitute for action to make them safe. The same faith that gives belief can also be used to dejustify further action. The Christian Scientists take this to its logical extreme by forsaking medicine.

[lynchjm24]

What about the idiots that pray when a child is sick instead of taking them to a doctor. That child doesn't get to choose, all they get to do is die.

So there is an instance Mrs. Kippy where prayer is bad and harmful.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Actually lynchjm24, I don't think the prayer is bad or harmful in that case, it's just not enough solely on its own. I'm not exactly someone known for quoting scripture around here but I can't think of any more appropriate quote for the circumstance you describe than this:

"A person is justified by works, and not by faith only. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
-James 2:24, 26

[PilotMan]

Darkiller - when I first got into FOF, I read your entire saga about the 49ers. It got me really excited and I jumped right in. You have been an asset to FOF.

I have disagreed with you on your last letter and this one, though. It seems to me that your love of FOF, and the slow and gradual change of this board into what it has become today doesn't sit very well with you. Things change and if this board doen't evolve in some way it woun't be around either.

I disagree with your opinion, but you have every right to express it. Your opinion alone should not be a basis for change for a board with so many members. If you desire change then you should seek backchannels and support and present your idea for improvement, rather than attacking the one responsible for enforcing them. That will accomplish nothing, other than set you up to be flamed.

I would not have stuck around this board if it was for FOF alone. Someday this will be FOF and Hattrick Central.

I am one to believe that we can live and learn to adjust to our differences, wether is be political or personel, or religions. In fact those differences make this board interesting. If we were all sitting around slapping ourselves on the back and talking about how great FOF was it would get pretty stale.

my .02

[CamEdwards]

this is why I hate political correctness. We're not allowed to pray for our friends safe return because it might be offensive to some people.

People who find the statement "you're in our prayers" offensive want it to go away.

If I find it offensive that you're offended, does that mean that you have to go away?

Arguing about whether prayer is harmful or not is a ridiculous exercise. We might as well ban lawyers from posting, because allowing them to speak freely here is clearly tacit approval of all attorneys, and I can point out thousands of people who have had their lives ruined by attorneys. Attorneys can make people lazy, because they pay someone else to defend them. Attorneys can make people weak spirited, because some attorneys try and paint people as "guilty"... people who should be "locked away". Some attorneys even try and put people in the electric chair, or in the case of Utah, the firing squad. Why on earth do we allow dangerous people like attorneys to post here without consequence?

Lawyers, engineers, puppets, dogs, Uma Thurman... the case could be made that everything under the sun is dangerous. I guess it's time to close up shop and not allow any more posts here. Who knows what dangerous ideas could be brought forth if we don't stop this right now.

[John Galt]

Originally posted by CamEdwards
this is why I hate political correctness. We're not allowed to pray for our friends safe return because it might be offensive to some people.

People who find the statement "you're in our prayers" offensive want it to go away.

If I find it offensive that you're offended, does that mean that you have to go away?

Arguing about whether prayer is harmful or not is a ridiculous exercise. We might as well ban lawyers from posting, because allowing them to speak freely here is clearly tacit approval of all attorneys, and I can point out thousands of people who have had their lives ruined by attorneys. Attorneys can make people lazy, because they pay someone else to defend them. Attorneys can make people weak spirited, because some attorneys try and paint people as "guilty"... people who should be "locked away". Some attorneys even try and put people in the electric chair, or in the case of Utah, the firing squad. Why on earth do we allow dangerous people like attorneys to post here without consequence?

Lawyers, engineers, puppets, dogs, Uma Thurman... the case could be made that everything under the sun is dangerous. I guess it's time to close up shop and not allow any more posts here. Who knows what dangerous ideas could be brought forth if we don't stop this right now.

Non-sequitor. No one is arguing that people shouldn't be allowed to pray.

[vtbub]

But the fact that it's mentioned offends you, which you go on and on about in great length.

Your lack of tolerance of other people's views and beliefs are amazing.

[mrskippy]

Go Cam Go!!!

In referance to the Christian Scientists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and other religious groups. These groups have far more problems than prayer.

They have screwed up religious beliefs, which do away with any common sense.

If I'm sick, yeah, I'm going to pray that I get better. But, I'm also going to go to the doctor and have him give me whatever treatment is necessary.

You act as if Christians just pray for things to be better, for things to do away, etc., rather than also use common sense.

God responds by answering prayers. And He answers EVERY prayer, even if you don't like the answer.

Screw it. ... I'll shut up. Because it's not worth arguing with small-minded folk.

[mckerney]

Originally posted by John Galt
Prayer for "small" things can trivialize the important things in life. See Notre Dame football.

Fuck Notre Dame.


Sorry, I just thought I had to put some sense into this thread.

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by mrskippy
Go Cam Go!!!

In referance to the Christian Scientists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and other religious groups. These groups have far more problems than prayer.

They have screwed up religious beliefs, which do away with any common sense.

If I'm sick, yeah, I'm going to pray that I get better. But, I'm also going to go to the doctor and have him give me whatever treatment is necessary.

You act as if Christians just pray for things to be better, for things to do away, etc., rather than also use common sense.

God responds by answering prayers. And He answers EVERY prayer, even if you don't like the answer.

Screw it. ... I'll shut up. Because it's not worth arguing with small-minded folk.

You see Skippy - here is the problem. You say there are things wrong with Christian Scientists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and other religious groups.

Some of us see a lot of the same problems with Christianty.

I guess I'm small minded because I don't see how He 'answers every prayer'. To me that totally lacks common sense, but then again I'm small-minded, I never realized that taking out ads thanking Saints in the newspaper would be so effective.

[John Galt]

Originally posted by vtbub
But the fact that it's mentioned offends you, which you go on and on about in great length.

Your lack of tolerance of other people's views and beliefs are amazing.

I give up. Does anyone actually read my posts??????

I NEVER said praying offends me. I NEVER said the sticky thread offended me. In fact, I said the exact opposite. I said the thread was fine with me and I offered some arguments on why prayer is sometimes bad (noting that I don't agree with all of them).

My "lack of tolerance??????" Read what I wrote and find where I was intolerant toward those who pray.

[John Galt]

Originally posted by mrskippy
Because it's not worth arguing with small-minded folk.

For once, Skippy gets it!!!!!

[Axxon]

Originally posted by mrskippy
You pray and run at the same time.

In my community we have a phrase which goes ( pardon my attempt at written spanish. I have enough trouble speaking it )

"Crea en Dios y no corre" which means believe in God and don't run.

It's used in a "yeah right" manner when someone tries to tell a whopper and it does refer to what to do when a train is coming straight at you.

As for the praying thing, I personally don't believe in asking for things with prayer. It's a personal thing really, accountability and responisibility and all that. I will, however give thanks when things go right, especially when by all rights they shouldn't have. I've had some really close calls in my day and many of them have left witnesses amazed that I've walked away. For that, I give thanks, heartfelt and grateful.

So, technically the statement excludes me too, but the sentiment certainly doesn't and I was very anti this war. Phew, that one sentence covered a lot. I never noticed it though until it was pointed out in this thread. While I profess no religion, peoples expression of it doesn't bother me. In fact though, the expression as posted violates Jesus' teachings.

He told us " But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly." By now though I realize that most christians don't know, or are unconcerned with, the teachings of the one whom ostensibly is who their religion is based on so it doesn't surprise me to see laxity on this issue.

I do see the irony, however, as I touched on the hypocricy that I see in the christian religion and the very quote I used was said as Jesus was pointing out the hypocrital prayer practices of his fellow jews. Good to see some things haven't changed in 2k years.

Still, I vote to leave the quote alone. We all know what it MEANS and it really isn't a religious message. It's one that uses religious terms to state a message that we all seem to be relating to and IMHO as this is not a governmental board, no one should get that worked up about the semantics especially since the true meaning has been made abundantly clear.

If they do still have issues, then that is good too. Nothing wrong with pulling the chain of the overly sensitive now and again. It's fun and it gives them some belief validation at the same time.

Win, win in my book.

[Axxon]

Originally posted by SkyDog
There may be cultural forces at work here as well. Although I am Christ-oriented (but heaven knows I ain't "religious"--ugh!), in that thread, the generic phrase "you're in our prayers" to me means about the equivalent of "we're thinkin' 'bout ya." Perhaps the problem here is you've got an Ol' Boy from South Georgia posting the thread. I don't recall thinking any literal "religious" implication. It probably isn't healthy, but in my cultural background, "you're in our prayers" just isn't a literal phrase at all. That's why I said (and I meant) that if someone had complained about it two months ago, I'm pretty sure I would have changed the wording without hesitation.

I can vouch for the cultural thing. It's alive and kicking here in S.C. as well. I hadn't thought about it really, but maybe that's why I never noticed it in the thread. Hmmm.

[Axxon]

Originally posted by mrskippy
There's a difference between stupidity and faith.

Standing on the track and praying the train doesn't hit you would be suicide. If you did survive you'd be locked up in a padded room for awhile.

Trying to get away and praying that you make it while you're running makes sense.

Skippy

It's a train people...a TRAIN. Unless it somehow snuck up on you you can simply walk a couple of feet either direction and be safe. No running required. Jeez.

[Noble_Platypus]

Unfortunatley. Guess he came back to get some cheese to go with his wine(whine)?

[mckerney]

Marge: Homer, you can't pray to God for every little thing.
Homer: Can and will.

[Axxon]

Originally posted by Noble_Platypus
Unfortunatley. Guess he came back to get some cheese to go with his wine(whine)?

Thank you for your insightful, well thought out and deeply profound contribution to the thread. It's timely and relevant interjections like these which validate my belief that I genuinely hate people. Not individual people, I can honestly state that I hold no hatred for anybody, but the entire species as a whole... hate them. That is all and thank you for your contribution. I had almost forgotten.

[Noble_Platypus]

Yeah, my contribution was almost as bad as if I would have stated that I was pissed for wishing good luck and a safe return to the men and women who defend our country.

[tucker342]

Originally posted by lynchjm24
You see Skippy - here is the problem. You say there are things wrong with Christian Scientists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and other religious groups.

Some of us see a lot of the same problems with Christianty.

I guess I'm small minded because I don't see how He 'answers every prayer'. To me that totally lacks common sense, but then again I'm small-minded, I never realized that taking out ads thanking Saints in the newspaper would be so effective.

I couldn't agree more.

I can see why people turn to prayer I think it's a waste of time, but people can believe what they want to believe. When Skydog puts a sticky on the top of the board asking people to pray for the safe return of our troops, to me, its asking us to hope for the safe return of our troops. I disagree with Skydog on almost every topic, but he does a great job of not shoving his opinions down my throat. And I respect him for that.