OT- LeBron James = Ricky Davis

[BillyMadison]

LeBron James will never be more then a Ricky Davis who can make the good pass. WHY? James jump shot is mediocre, his defense is subpar. Sure he can score, but he certainly doesn't deserve the attention he is getting... lets face it, soceity has been begging for the "Next Jordan" and they are turning to LeBron... who will never be MJ. Why didn't Amare Stoudemire get the recognition LeBron James got in H.S.? We're talking about the rookie of the year as a 19 year old... and a guy whose game is wayyyyy further along then LeBron. LeBrons head has gotten air balloon size, and it will pop once he hits the pros... He thinks he has it done, he thinks he is the man... he is in for a reality check. LeBron James will never be the player Carmelo Anthony will be.

*prepares for bashing*

[Calis]

bashing? Hell I think you're almost spot on about everything.

From what little I've seen of Lebron's game, he really seems to just be a case of a man amoung kids playing, I think he's in for a very rude awakening in the NBA. I also thought he had a below average shot, and defense. He could possibly be a good player a few years down the road if he works his ass off.

Maybe I'm just bitter though, but yeah I fall into the same boat thinking th at Anthony will be a better deal overall for the team who picks him(Nuggets) than James will be for his team.

This is one of those deals where I wish I could be wrong, as if James could turn out to be a superstart the effect it would have on the NBA would be amazing I think, but I just don't see it happening.

[rexallllsc]

This whole thing about the next Jordan really drives me crazy...IMO, Kobe and Iverson are both better than Mike was.

Like it or not, much of Jordan's aura comes from the insane amount of hype Nike gave him as he was coming up. He's no Magic, Bird, Russell, Chamberlain, IMO.

[rexallllsc]

FYI - Lebron went 0-9 from 3 vs. Mater Dei HS in LA when they played this year. That does not bode well. I think he'll be a GOOD player at first, but in HS he was simply running past everyone, and jumping over them...much like the other top prospects.

You can go to any of the top recruits' bios and find freakish stats. Here's one from Josh Childress, a kid who was a top 20 recruit and Mickey D's AA, who is now @ Stanford:

http://gostanford.ocsn.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/childress_josh00.html

In one memorable game against Cerritos, scored 40 points (16-of-17 from the floor) and grabbed 20 rebounds in three quarters of play ...

[BillyMadison]

he really seems to just be a case of a man amoung kids playing

Bingo

I hope I am wrong too, I honestly don't want him to fail... but I do think he is overhyped... so overhyped that no matter what he does, he won't live up to his expectations.

If anyone can answer how LeBron is/was a better player then Amare Stoudemire and why he got the hype and Amare didn't, I'm all ears.

[rexallllsc]

Originally posted by BillyMadison
Bingo

I hope I am wrong too, I honestly don't want him to fail... but I do think he is overhyped... so overhyped that no matter what he does, he won't live up to his expectations.

If anyone can answer how LeBron is/was a better player then Amare Stoudemire and why he got the hype and Amare didn't, I'm all ears.

Because Amare is a big man...big men typically don't dazzle the way wings do. Not only that, but James had a defining game...where he lit up Lenny Cooke for like 36 points in some HS tourney game, when Cooke's team was like #1 in the country.

[BillyMadison]

"This whole thing about the next Jordan really drives me crazy...IMO, Kobe and Iverson are both better than Mike was.

Like it or not, much of Jordan's aura comes from the insane amount of hype Nike gave him as he was coming up. He's no Magic, Bird, Russell, Chamberlain, IMO."

Pass the crack pipe. Jordan is the best ever. Kobe and Iverson aren't near the player Jordan was. They can't dominate games like Micheal can/did. I don't want to get involved into this... but I think that us a ludicrous statement. Ow and Wilt... yea, the only other decent guy around his height was Russell... he clearly had an advantage playing at his size.

For your second post... Sure Amare is a big man... but why should that put him at a disadvantage? you don't think Amare put up some mind boggling numbers against a top 25 team? I don't have stats next to me... But im pretty sure Amare averages around 30PPG , 15 rebounds per game.

LeBron will never be the player Amare is.

[rexallllsc]

Originally posted by BillyMadison
Pass the crack pipe. Jordan is the best ever. Kobe and Iverson aren't near the player Jordan was. They can't dominate games like Micheal can/did. I don't want to get involved into this... but I think that us a ludicrous statement. Ow and Wilt... yea, the only other decent guy around his height was Russell... he clearly had an advantage playing at his size.

For your second post... Sure Amare is a big man... but why should that put him at a disadvantage? you don't think Amare put up some mind boggling numbers against a top 25 team? I don't have stats next to me... But im pretty sure Amare averages around 30PPG , 15 rebounds per game.

LeBron will never be the player Amare is.

I hate to tell you, but Wilt Chamberlain and Oscar Robertson dominated the game more than Jordan ever did.

Jordan was a great player...but the whole Nike "Air Jordan" hype increased his legend in many peoples eyes, IMO.

As far as Amare, Lebron, etc...my point was ALL top prospects put up big numbers. Aside from that, big men are boring to watch, and thus don't get as much TV time. If you were watching SportsCenter, which would you think would be the #1 play of the day, Tim Duncan grabbing an offensive board, and hitting a fade away, or Kobe Bryant dunking over Yao Ming?

[BillyMadison]

LMAO... Amare Stoudemire is boring to watch? What league are you watching? Curling?

[tucker342]

The reason Lebron doen't have a very good jump shot, is cause, all he had to do was dunk it over everybody. Give him some time to develop his jumper, and he'll be great.

[rexallllsc]

Originally posted by BillyMadison
LMAO... Amare Stoudemire is boring to watch? What league are you watching? Curling?

Compared to guard play, yes. I don't recall saying he wasn't a good player, but if I had to watch certain players play, he wouldn't be in the top 20...he probably wouldn't even be in the top 40.

[mckerney]

LeBron will at the worst be a very good player, though he's no Darko.

[Blackadar]

LeBron is only 18. Give him time. Developing a jump shot is one of the easier tasks in basketball. He'll have to buckle down on defense, but he can be taught that as well. Only time will tell if he turns out be one of the great ones, but at 18, he's light years ahead of those who have come before him, inlcuding Garnett and Kobe. He has one rare gift - he sees the court extremely well.

[clintl]

It might be 5 years before we know whether James is a great player or a bust. Kobe and Garnett took a few years to develop into great players.

[BillyMadison]

He is light years ahead of Garnett??

WOW... news to me... Considering garnett was one of thwe more successful rookies after a H.S. Jump... Same with Amare.

Considering I guarentee you havent seen one of Garnett's H.S. games... thats not an accurate assumption.

[TroyF]

Let me preface this by saying I have zero idea how Lebron will turn out. No idea. Zippo.

That said:

Strengths

1) He sees the floor better than many NBA players do. Jason Kidd didn't have a jump shot when he turned pro either. It could be argued that he still doesn't have one. In the couple of chance I had to see Lebron, his court vision ranks with just about anybody I've seen, college or pro.

2) He's explosive. Much more explosive than Kidd. More pure explosion and speed than Garnett. In fact, I'd say in pure speed and explosiveness, he's right there with nearly every small forward in the league. Combine that explosiveness with his size 6'8" 240 (for comparison Kobe is 6'8" 220, McGrady 6'8" 210) it means he'll get to the line quite a bit. It also means he'll be able to slash to the bucket for his share of points early. Where Kobe and McGrady had to grow into their bodies to take the pounding, Lebron is already there.

3) He's unselfish. (on the floor at least) The thing that really impressed me when watching his games is the fact he didn't try to take over the game from start to finish. If his teammate was open, his teammate got the ball. Period. With his vision and court awareness, that makes him a dangerous player right off.

-------------------------------------------------

Weaknesses

1) Defense. This is by far his most important thing to work on. It's also the easiest to teach and distill for a coach who really stresses that part of the game. I see no reason Lebron can't be a good defensive player. He's got the speed, vision, and size to match up with anyone he'll be gaurding. It's going to take one thing: Work. Will he put forth the work? Your guess is as good as mine. Still, there are a lot of current NBA players who don't play a lot of defense. (ummmm Dirk, you're one my favorite players in the league, you also get torched on a regular basis)

2) The jump shot. This isn't critical early. It will be later. While he's young and explosive, he'll be able to impact the game on the offensive end of the floor WITHOUT a great jump shot. A merely average one will suffice to begin with. It's strange, because the shots I watched him take, I saw a pretty good ball. Nice rotation, good arc, squared himself up OK. . . just didn't go down. I think this can be worked on.

I'm not going to call this kid the greatest player to ever play in the league before he gets here. (anymore than I'll call Kwame Brown a bust until he's had a couple of more years of everyday play) I do think, from what I have seen, he's a virtual lock to be a very good NBA player and that he has a much better than 50/50 shot to be a superstar. Time will tell.

TroyF

[TroyF]

DOLA here:

A quick note on Ricky Davis:

He had some problems this year. A lot of them had to do with selfishness and taking poor shots. It might be important to remember, however, that he's still only 23 and that this was his first season as a full time starter. I can think of a lot of 23 year olds who wished they could average 20 points, 5 boards and 5.5 assists with a mediocre array of players around them.

If Davis learns to take better shots (something which is likely to happen in the next couple of years), he'll be a force to contend with. I wouldn't write him off as a good player yet.

TroyF

[Mantle2600]

TroyF stated everything i was thinking perfectly.

[IMetTrentGreen]

HE'S SEVENTEEN YEARS OLD

he's got a five year nba body right now, he's super-athletic (although nto as fast as jordan was, but who is?), and has a great feel for the game

no high schooler plays great defense or has a great shot their first year. in three years though i will say, barring injury or bad coaching, he'll be a superstar. he's better now than kobe or t-mac were

[Mantle2600]

Hes 18 actually, Darko's 17.

[NYFAN]

I think TroyF summed it up very well. Let me make a few points as well (a lot being repeated).

LeBron has three GREAT attributes, his athleticism, his court vision, and what could only be described as a perfect basketball body. If he were 6' 1" he wouldn't be the #1 pick right now, but what makes him so great is that he has SG/SF/PF height, body and athleticism. At 6'8" 240 lbs he could be considered a fairly well bodied (although a little short) power forward! Kurt Thomas (who played center, and put up quality numbers) on the Knicks is an inch taller and 5 pounds lighter. This is the type of body that Lebron has, and with quickness that Kobe has (and by the way he's only 6'6"), and 30 lbs on McGrady that is simply amazing.

Now that it's established that he has an ideal body and athleticism to play any position other than center basically, take into account that he sees the court as well as anyone in the NBA or probably the world for that matter. The kid sees the court, feels the game, and has a high basketball IQ allowing him to make the right decisions more than most players at any level. I can almost guarantee that as long as he works at an average level compared to most NBA players, this skill alone will keep him in the league as a high end starter. In fact, it will probably be the thing that allows him to come into the NBA right away as a full time starter (something that Kobe, KG, and Tracy didn't). I think it's a fairly strong given that he's a very creative distributor who has the instinctive discipline to be very successful very quickly in this facet of the game.

This will allow him to work on other parts of his game, like his shot, his defense (which is probably the easiest facet of the game to go from bad to excellent, because it is really a simple skill combined with effort) and just the learning curve of playing in the NBA.

**The biggest key will likely be his court vision, and the way he feels the game. If he is struggling with one aspect of his game (scoring, defending, rebounding, whatever...) he will consistently be able to fall back on his ability to get into the flow of the game. This skill is probably the greatest skill any player can have because it allows them to make players around them better, AND work themselves back into a rythym. When a player doesn't have a dominant skill (defense is probably the most common) that he can use to get himself back into a rythym it is very hard to succeed. But Lebron has that, and since his body is not an issue (like it was with Kobe and KG out of HS) he is at a huge advantage.

This kid may not be an all-star off the bat, and he may never turn into what he is hyped to; that will be based on health, determination, and focus. But this kid is going to come in and be a player, and will probably put up numbers better than Amare. If I had to guess (and this is probably as good as anyone) but I'd say depending on the supporting cast around him, his numbers will likely be about:

15 ppg
6 rbpg
6 apg
1.5 spg
1 bpg

Reason being, chances are he'll be a second tier scorer on his team (davis most likely and potentially miles), but that will work to his advantage because it'll force him to get his points in the flow of the game, and not worry as much about trying to be the scorer. Rebounds will be natural, at 6'8" he's going to be asked to crash the boards a lot on defense so that he can start the break on his own (they'll probably have him defend opposing 3's since that will probably be his easiest matchup). Assists, that's his game. Once guys realize what he can do, they're gonna work harder than they have to try and get open when he has the ball, and he's going to get it to them, really quite simple. 6 assists really isn't a lot for a point guard, but he has some very athletic players around him so I think the assists will be fairly balanced on the team. Steals will come from his court vision and more disciplined defense, blocks are the same, great athleticism, court vision, and feel are going to lead to him getting more blocks than most wings/guards.

Overall, this guy is *destined* for a very special career if he has that drive that guys like Jordan, Kobe and Iverson have. From his maturity, and having to deal with all the pressures he has at such a young age, I think he's got it, because if he didn't he would have screwed up big by now. If he doesn't have that extra "it" he's still going to have a good chance at being one of the top wings in the league.

[rexallllsc]

What I don't want to see is people freaking out if he "only" averages like 13 ppg. On the whole, players who have jumped from HS to the pros have done fine. Here's what players did in their first year, and what they're doing now

Kobe Bryant (7 years)
Rookie:
7.6 ppg
1.9 rpg

Now:
30.0 ppg
6.9 rpg

Kevin Garnett
Rookie:
10.4 ppg
6.3 rpg

Now:
23.0 ppg
13.4 rpg

Tracy McGrady
Rookie:
7.0 ppg
4.2 rpg

Now:
32.1 ppg
6.5 rpg

Jermaine O'Neal
Rookie:
4.1 ppg
2.8 rpg

Now:
20.8 ppg
10.3 rpg

Rashard Lewis
Rookie:
2.4 ppg
1.3 rpg

Now:
18.1 ppg
6.5 rpg

[TroyF]

The thing that gets me is that this has happened with EVERY over hyped star. Doesn't matter which sport.

I heard how Tiger Woods was overrated and wouldn't be "all that and a bag of chips" Now, I'm not a big Tiger fan and I'm certainly sick of his continued hype, but look at those results. He's already had a hall of fame career and he isn't yet 28.

I heard about how overrated Kobe Bryant was too. Again, I dislike the guy, but how can you not love his game?

In football it's Michael Vick.

Hell, I even remember getting into it with some guy who thought Tim Duncan was an overrated player and would get torn up in the NBA.

I could list another 40 guys but it'd all be the same thing and follow the same pattern:

1) One of a kind young player comes along
2) SI or ESPN get ahold of him and hype him to death
3) Some people buy into the hype and think the youngster will be the greatest of all-time.
4) Others come along and rip the guy to shreds, saying he can't possibly be that good. (note: when these people get it right, they will NEVER shut up about it)
5) Another group of people take the armchair scouts point of view. They see the weaknesses (which group 3 will not see) and sees the strengths (which group 4 refuses to see) and puts them together to make their own assessment.
6) In the end, all three groups are forced to watch the person play for 5 or 6 years to determine who was right and who was wrong. (right- Kobe, Tiger, wrong- Van Poppel, B. Taylor undecided- Vick)

I'm not sure who the next overhyped youngster will be. (maybe Clarrett?) Whoever it is, this board and many others will have the same type of debate again and the cycle will repeat itself. (next headline will be something like Clarrett=Clarinet) Lest you think I'm complaining, I'm not. Just writing about the way it is.

God I love sports.

TroyF

[TroyF]

Rex,

Agree with you 100% on that. The only thing I'll really be looking for on Lebron early will be the court vision I saw in his H.S. games. If it is as sharp as it was there, he'll be just fine.

TroyF

[rexallllsc]

Originally posted by TroyF
6) In the end, all three groups are forced to watch the person play for 5 or 6 years to determine who was right and who was wrong. (right- Kobe, Tiger, wrong- Van Poppel, B. Taylor undecided- Vick)

Forgive my ignorance...who is Taylor?

[TroyF]

Rex,

Brein Taylor. The lefty the Yankees took out of H.S. He was supposed to be a legend.

TroyF

[Balldog]

Originally posted by rexallllsc
FYI - Lebron went 0-9 from 3 vs. Mater Dei HS in LA when they played this year. That does not bode well. I think he'll be a GOOD player at first, but in HS he was simply running past everyone, and jumping over them...much like the other top prospects.

The next game that week he shot 8-11 from 3. He gets in trouble when he tries to do fadeaway jumpshots all the time like the Mater Dei game. When he shoots properly he isn't a bad shooter.

The coach he had his junior and senior year was a complete idiot and basically just let the players play and do what they want all game as to not piss any of them off, while soaking up the fame of coaching LeBron.. If he would have had the same coach he had his freshman and sophomore season he would probably have been a lot better this last year.

[Balldog]

Taylor was tearing up the minor leagues then he got in a bar fight or something and messed up his shoulder.

[rexallllsc]

Originally posted by TroyF
Rex,

Brein Taylor. The lefty the Yankees took out of H.S. He was supposed to be a legend.

TroyF

Man. I just looked on Baseball Almanac...never played a game, eh?

[rexallllsc]

Originally posted by Balldog
Taylor was tearing up the minor leagues then he got in a bar fight or something and messed up his shoulder.

Wonder what he's doing now? I imagine he got a sizeable signing bonus.

[Balldog]

I thought I read in the USA Today (2 years ago?) that he was working at a UPS Hub in Cleveland.

[TroyF]

1.55 million dollar signing bonus. Remember, this was in '91, that was astronomical for the time.

He actually wasn't tearing it up in the minors. He was struggling badly in the minors. Control problems were the main culpret if memory serves.

I can't find actual stats, but here's a link from CNN which cites that he had trouble in the minors before the fight.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/bas.../04/top_busts/

TroyF

[rexallllsc]

Originally posted by TroyF
1.55 million dollar signing bonus. Remember, this was in '91, that was astronomical for the time.

He actually wasn't tearing it up in the minors. He was struggling badly in the minors. Control problems were the main culpret if memory serves.

I can't find actual stats, but here's a link from CNN which cites that he had trouble in the minors before the fight.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/bas.../04/top_busts/

TroyF

Crazy. Looks like 'ol Drew Henson might got down the same road (bu$t)

[korme]

Just so everyone doesn't freak out if he doesn't score 20 a night his first year:

Garnett as a rookie: 10 PPG
Kobe: like 6, or 8 PPG
Jermaine O'Neal? He was lucky to find 10 minutes a game his first few seasons.

[korme]

or i shoulda just read rex's post

[DeToxRox]

One note on Amarie..

He was in I think 6 or 9 (I forget) different high schools in two years. People thought he was like the next Rasheed Wallace. If he had a stable high school career he'd have been a top 3 pick possibly, top 5 most likely.

[Samdari]

Originally posted by rexallllsc
Kobe and Iverson are both better than Mike was.

I'm not much of a Jordan guy, but Kobe? A great quote from an NBA scout during the Lakers' run - "Take Shaq away from Kobe and you've got Jerry Stackhouse."

[rexallllsc]

Originally posted by Samdari
I'm not much of a Jordan guy, but Kobe? A great quote from an NBA scout during the Lakers' run - "Take Shaq away from Kobe and you've got Jerry Stackhouse."

Is he the same scout who picked Frederick Weiss?

Come on. Kobe is the quickest player to 10,000 points, and at 24, has 3 NBA titles. Stackhouse is a good player, but Kobe is much better, IMO.

Only a few players in the history of basketball have gone on tears like Kobe's earlier this year...

Edit: This year, Stackhouse averaged 29.0 from 3 point range, and 3.7 boards. His career highs in those categories is 35.1 and 4.2. This year, Kobe shot 38% from 3, and pulled down 6.9 rpg...both career highs. He's only getting better.

You can sum it up like this:

Would you trade Jerry Stackhouse for the #1 pick? Yes. Would you trade Kobe? F*** NO!

Edit 2: Stackhouses career FG% is 41%...Kobe's is 45%...

[DeToxRox]

The whole Stack/Kobe debate can be summed up also by playoff performance.

Stack, as the go to guy, is nothing in the playoffs. Kobe has proven time in and time out how clutch he is.

Also, as far as the entire Lebron thing goes, basically, you can say all you want about how he's going to be nothing special and all that, but it's stupid.

All this is right now is opinion.

Let him play until his first contract is up, and then we'll talk facts.

[NYFAN]

When comparing Jordan and Kobe you have to be fair to both sides.

Mike came in and was his team's go to guy, the man, and he had to learn how to make the team his team. The key being, doing as much as possible, without doing everything, thus strengthening the team.

Kobe came in and had "the man" next to him, he had to deal with that knowing that he had skills not many had. His key was to allow Shaq to do his thing, and to do anything else possible to help win.

You may look at the two situations as being similar, but in actuality they are exact opposites. Jordan's challenge was to be the #1 guy, Kobe's challenge was to yield to the #1 guy.

As time has progressed Jordan's challenges changed. He had to learn to do the things he had, in a way that he hadn't. Plain and simple, he had to make up for his loss of youth and athleticism, with his smarts.

Kobe's challenge has changed as well. He is no longer the number 2 guy on the team, he is the team's best player. The problem is that Shaq is the league's most dominant player. The line being thin, but important for both to recognize. When Shaq exerts maximum effort and focus, a combo of such dominant proportions is simply unstoppablein today's league. But when the team diminishes, and Shaq clearly isn't playing at his peak, too much is put on Kobe's shoulders; it would be a challenge even Mike would be hard pressed to overcome.

The biggest similarity is the common bond between Kobe, Jordan, Iverson, and even Duncan more and more. These guys in a league of competitors, dedicate their lives to competing and have the talent to match it. As a result they have the ability to take over a game, in any and every aspect their team needs at any given time; a rebound, a stop, a bucket, and the greatest of all, the ability to create and sustain momentum.

When all is said and done Kobe will likely have more championships, more points, more rebounds, and more assists than Jordan. His defensive ability is great already, but probably not quite where Jordan was at his peak. But will better overall stats make him the better player? The first will always be the most memorable, and Jordan was that, but we're seeing a day and age where people dedicate their entire lives, starting at ridiculously young ages to groom themselves to be the best ever. The best will keep getting better.

[SteelerFan448]

Did anyone see him interviewed during the Spurs Mavs game? Charles gave him so good advice, learn to say "no." That may be the best advice Lebron can get from anyone.

[tucker342]

Kobe was the whole reason that the Lakers even got to the playoffs. When Shaq went down with the injury, Kobe really raised his game, and saved the Lakers. So before you say he's nothing without Shaq, look at how well he played this season when Shaq was out...

[clintl]

Kobe may have played well, but hardly anyone else on the Lakers did while Shaq was out. The Lakers were basically the Clippers without Shaq this season.

[cmp]

Originally posted by tucker342
Kobe was the whole reason that the Lakers even got to the playoffs. When Shaq went down with the injury, Kobe really raised his game, and saved the Lakers. So before you say he's nothing without Shaq, look at how well he played this season when Shaq was out...

Without Shaq the Lakers wouldn't have been in the playoffs though either. Without Shaq on the Lakers Kobe would be chucking up many more shots a game and would probably have a much worse field goal %. His numbers would probably look very similar to Stackhouse's.

[rexallllsc]

Originally posted by gold101
Without Shaq the Lakers wouldn't have been in the playoffs though either. Without Shaq on the Lakers Kobe would be chucking up many more shots a game and would probably have a much worse field goal %. His numbers would probably look very similar to Stackhouse's.

BS. Kobe is a much better shooter (and rebounder) than Jerry Stackhouse.