ACC/Big East/Miami Revisited - Page 3

Marmel · 05-15-2003, 10:52 AM

If Notre Dame football is going to join a conference, it will probably be the Big East. The rest of their teams play in the Big East and they are extremely comfortable there. They could be the team that saves teh Big East and keeps the 'Miami trio' in the Big East instead of moving to the ACC.

Probably not going to happen, but at this point, I think it might be at least a possibility. Notre Dame does not want to be in the Big10, and if the Big East breaks up, I doubt they want to have all of their other sports a part of the 'new Big East' minus Syracuse/BC/Miami. This puts a bit of pressure on ND to join in football (but probably not enough pressure to actually make them do it, still stranger things have happened).

Radii · 05-15-2003, 11:00 AM

How long does Notre Dame have their own special clause for the BCS and national title games? As long as they are given that I can't imagine they'd ever join a conference. Without it, I can easiliy see them in the Big East. But it'd be too late for them to impcat this current set of events I would think.

Wolfpack · 05-15-2003, 11:04 AM

Hey Radii! You aren't alone in your thinking! (I wonder why...

)

Seriously, though, while I am overjoyed at what Chuck's doing for the football program, if this expasion comes to pass and the divisions break like they might, this year might be his last best chance at getting at least the conference title. Having a possibility of playing FSU and Miami, let alone Tech, Clemson, and whichever of the other Big 4 schools (I think Wake, never an easy out anymore) will make it pretty dang hard to win the title.

To others: don't be surprised if NC State is the "trendy" pick (which is usually a very bad thing, IMO) for the ACC title this year. It is the last year for Philip Rivers and we've got just about the best team talent-wise our school has ever fielded. Realistically, with road games at FSU and OSU, along with a Maryland team that always seems to get a break against us and a Tech team that has absolutely owned the series over recent seasons, I'd be happy with 8-4 and everything else being gravy.

As pointed out earlier, next year will be the true telling point of how far this program has come when Rivers graduates and we have to hand the reins over to Jay Davis (redshirt Soph.) or Marcus Stone (redshirt frosh, likely).

Back to the topic-at-hand, I'm sure the Big East is going to be making a heck of a pitch to the Canes to keep them. About the only thing I can think would be successful would be to break the conference from the basketball schools as described earlier and then adding either Penn State or Notre Dame to the mix, plus perhaps some others to get the Big East to 12 teams.

And for all you Syracuse fans, many ACC fans generally agree with you on this one point: they don't want you in the league, either.

Most of them want VaTech over BC and/or Syracuse. Some, including the FSU fans, are beginning to feel like Miami's dictating too much to the ACC about who we should bring in and that's beginning to bother them. It could very well fall apart anway.

GrantDawg · 05-15-2003, 11:06 AM

Yeah, if I were Notre Dame I wouldn't join the Big Ten either. To hard a conference. I think Miami leaving might add to their joining the Big East, but I doubt they will with there own television network and BCS guarentee. What I was saying was that ND joining the Big Ten would be good for college football at large (and college football fans in general).

ScottVib · 05-15-2003, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radii
How long does Notre Dame have their own special clause for the BCS and national title games? As long as they are given that I can't imagine they'd ever join a conference. Without it, I can easiliy see them in the Big East. But it'd be too late for them to impcat this current set of events I would think.

I believe the TV deal expires 2004; BCS after the 2005 season.

Anrhydeddu · 05-15-2003, 12:55 PM

Just think, all these school administrators and staff thought this was simply another junket to go down to Florida to play golf and pretend to work.

Ksyrup · 05-15-2003, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wolfpack
And for all you Syracuse fans, many ACC fans generally agree with you on this one point: they don't want you in the league, either. Most of them want VaTech over BC and/or Syracuse. Some, including the FSU fans, are beginning to feel like Miami's dictating too much to the ACC about who we should bring in and that's beginning to bother them. It could very well fall apart anway.

My guess is that this whole expansion push is not being led by FSU anyway, but the other schools who are afraid that they won't be able to take up FSU's slack in football if FSU falls from the ranks of the elite programs. Like I mentioned earlier, from FSU's perspective, they aren't really getting anything out of Miami joining - they still play them in football and baseball every year anyway - so the only affect will be less of a chance of winning the ACC, plus the possibility of less money per team (since they'd have to come up with an extra $27M for the 3 new teams to match the $9M/team payout they have now). I'm for it, but since there's no tangible gains but potential losses, I can see why FSU would not necessarily want it to happen - at least not if it has to be on Miami's terms, and those terms get to be unfair or downright outrageous.

Face it - Miami's got "hand" right now, with a lot of people!

Ksyrup · 05-15-2003, 01:19 PM

What I mean by no tangible gains is that it's possible that the future TV deals won't be as lucrative as they have been in the past, which would offset the potential gains in market by adding Miami, NY, and Boston. That's got to be where they think the extra money is goig to come from. But that might not happen, given the reality of where TV contracts appear headed and the state of the economy right now.

Anrhydeddu · 05-15-2003, 01:34 PM

Adding NY as in NYC??? How? Don't say Syracuse or else I'll come down there and smack ya.

Ksyrup · 05-15-2003, 01:43 PM

That's why I said NY. As in state, at least the college football/Syracuse fans. I wouldn't pretend that NYC gives a hoot about college football. The North is different, I know. Hell, I lived just outside of Ann Arbor growing up, and UM still was a distant second to pro football. And we're talking late 70's/early 80's LIONS here!

Samdari · 05-15-2003, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
Adding NY as in NYC??? How? Don't say Syracuse or else I'll come down there and smack ya.

Actually, the ACC knows that they get the NYC market with SU. SU has gotten good ratings there for a long time, they have a huge alumni base.

Edit: To resemble English sentences.

Anrhydeddu · 05-15-2003, 01:54 PM

Never knew that, if it's true. Being a Syracuse native, I know we want to have nothing to with NYC and vice versa.

Marmel · 05-15-2003, 02:00 PM

Outside of Syracuse itself, NYC is the largest syracuse alumni base. They won't be getting the NYC market, but they will tap into it a bit, as well as tap into the New York State market.

Wolfpack · 05-15-2003, 03:53 PM

Ksyrup: I live in Ann Arbor now, actually. I think the debacle of the last couple of years in Detroit has probably shifted the interest more to the Wolverines. (I still think the sports reports up here suck hind teat anyway...I miss having out-of-town highlights and scores...the station I grew up with in North Carolina ran down just about every sports score they could get a hand on and showed highlights to quite a few of them.)

Ksyrup · 05-15-2003, 04:22 PM

You can't argue with getting 110,000 fans in the stadium. I just remember from my perspective that pro sports were always #1 growing up in Michigan (Livonia, actually). We got up for the UM/OSU and UM/MSU games, but other than that, I don't really recall watching a lick of college football growing up, until I moved to College Station, TX in 1983.

Samdari · 05-15-2003, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
Being a Syracuse native, I know we want to have nothing to with NYC and vice versa.

I know from your point of view its true, but NYC kids seem to flock upstate to go to school. A large chunk of SU's student population originates there. Many go back there to live and thus a large built in alumni population.

General Mike · 05-15-2003, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Samdari
I know from your point of view its true, but NYC kids seem to flock upstate to go to school. A large chunk of SU's student population originates there. Many go back there to live and thus a large built in alumni population.

Maybe, but have you ever seen the NYC ratings for college football? If Notre Dame isn't playing, no one cares. New York is a pro sports market and it always will be.

Wolfpack · 05-15-2003, 09:55 PM

ksyrup: I do kinda see that. People up here are totally in love with the Red Wings (as a Canes fan, I must admit great satisfaction when they stole game one at the Joe in last year's Final, leaving some stunned faces in the stands) and have shown renewed interest in the resurgent Pistons, but the Lions and Tigers mean a whole lot of nothing between the end of April and the middle of October.

cmp · 05-15-2003, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wolfpack
ksyrup: I do kinda see that. People up here are totally in love with the Red Wings (as a Canes fan, I must admit great satisfaction when they stole game one at the Joe in last year's Final, leaving some stunned faces in the stands) and have shown renewed interest in the resurgent Pistons, but the Lions and Tigers mean a whole lot of nothing between the end of April and the middle of October.

There's still some of us diehard Lions fans left in Michigan. The Lions always pack a lot of fans into their games. This year we sold-out games all the time because of Ford Field but even with the Silverdome we had big crowds.

And other than Michigan football it seems that pro sports are much bigger around here. Maybe if Michigan State turned their program around the interest in college football would increase greatly.

Ksyrup · 05-15-2003, 10:02 PM

When I lived there, NONE of the pro teams were any good. I left a couple years before the 84 Tigers won it all. But the Pistons, Lions, and Wings sucked royally back in the late 70's/early 80's.

VPI97 · 05-15-2003, 10:21 PM

Strong rumor: Apparently, there's a plan in place for Notre Dame to play a pseudo Big East schedule to help boost the value of the BE's TV contract and keep Miami in the conference. They would not join the football conference as an official member, but would play 3 Big East teams + Miami yearly. The word is that Miami has agreed to stay if this agreement is official. In exchange for this, Notre Dame would continue to participate in the Big East's bowl situation + a few non-football perks in the conference. FWIW, Notre Dame has had a stake in the football conference already (despite not being a full member), so this is their way of protecting themselves...the Big East folding would hurt them.

Note - It is a rumor, so take it for what it's worth...but it comes from a reliable source.

Samdari · 05-16-2003, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by General Mike
Maybe, but have you ever seen the NYC ratings for college football? If Notre Dame isn't playing, no one cares. New York is a pro sports market and it always will be.

Yes, I have, have you seen them or are you giving your impression of people's attitudes? That SU does very well in New York tv ratings is a fact, not my opinion or impression. Yes, they pale in comparison to ND, but "noone caring" in NY generally results in more viewers than if every VPI fan worldwide tunes in at once. That is the only reason they are being considered, because they are considered to bring the NYC market.

oykib · 05-16-2003, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by VPI97
Strong rumor: Apparently, there's a plan in place for Notre Dame to play a pseudo Big East schedule to help boost the value of the BE's TV contract and keep Miami in the conference. They would not join the football conference as an official member, but would play 3 Big East teams + Miami yearly. The word is that Miami has agreed to stay if this agreement is official. In exchange for this, Notre Dame would continue to participate in the Big East's bowl situation + a few non-football perks in the conference. FWIW, Notre Dame has had a stake in the football conference already (despite not being a full member), so this is their way of protecting themselves...the Big East folding would hurt them.

Note - It is a rumor, so take it for what it's worth...but it comes from a reliable source.

If this rumor is true, then Tranghese really is the smartest man in college athletics.

Radii · 05-16-2003, 05:19 PM

http://espn.go.com/ncaa/news/2003/0516/1555056.html

"It was not known Friday if Virginia vetoed expansion without the Hokies. But WRAL.com is reporting that Duke changed its vote. On Tuesday, Duke voted against expansion. But Friday, the Blue Devils joined the ranks in support of expanding to 12 teams in the ACC if the expansion included Miami, Syracuse and Boston College."

Fucking Blue Devils. I thought for ONCE UNC and Duke would agree on something.

lynchjm24 · 05-16-2003, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oykib
If this rumor is true, then Tranghese really is the smartest man in college athletics.

I'm not a religious man, but I've taken to praying that this is the case.

lynchjm24 · 05-16-2003, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radii
http://espn.go.com/ncaa/news/2003/0516/1555056.html

"It was not known Friday if Virginia vetoed expansion without the Hokies. But WRAL.com is reporting that Duke changed its vote. On Tuesday, Duke voted against expansion. But Friday, the Blue Devils joined the ranks in support of expanding to 12 teams in the ACC if the expansion included Miami, Syracuse and Boston College."

Could just be Duke trying to force Virginia's hand.
Duke votes yes for now - Va Tech is out.
Virginia can't very well vote yes if Va Tech is excluded.
Now, Duke goes to Virginia -vote no, and we'll change back to no.
Goodbye expansion, Duke gets their original wish.

Edit: Dola

digamma · 05-16-2003, 05:53 PM

Actually, I think this was set up as a two-tiered vote on purpose, in order to assure its passage.

Think about it...Duke and UNC were under pressure to vote against expansion for a number of reasons. In the initial "should we expand vote" they both voted no. They can tell their alumni that they voted against expansion.

Next, you have a vote on who comes in as part of the expansion. BC, Syracuse and Miami are put forward. Because of the political pressure surrounding Virginia Tech, UVA votes against this proposal, but Duke (keeping in mind expansion, as a concept having already passed) agrees to vote for it because it, like the rest of the conference save UVA, would rather have BC and Syracuse rather than VPI and one of those two teams. Virginia can then say it voted against the plan that did not include Virginia Tech.

Ksyrup · 05-16-2003, 06:30 PM

I think that's how it went. Duke and NC voted against the idea of expansion, to satisfy their folks. Once it was decided to expand, Duke and/or NC can feel free to vote for who comes in, because whether there's going to be expansion is already a done deal, and at that point, they are just voting for the teams that make the most sense. That allows Virginia to vote for expansion (to include Va Tech), but then vote against one or more of the specific teams because VT isn't among them. Everyone gets to make it look like they protested at the right time, yet everything goes forward as originally planned.

FWIW, here in Tally and down in Miami, the word is that all of this was a done deal before anything ever leaked out about the attempt to expand. The ACC would never have gotten as far as a vote on expansion if this wasn't already a done deal. At least that's what they are saying here - barring some unforeseen last-minute switch, of course.

Noop · 05-16-2003, 07:58 PM

Ksyrup are you a member of www.warchant.com? Because I swear I seen that post on their message board today.

noop

05-15-2003, 10:52 AM	#101
Marmel Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Manchester, CT	If Notre Dame football is going to join a conference, it will probably be the Big East. The rest of their teams play in the Big East and they are extremely comfortable there. They could be the team that saves teh Big East and keeps the 'Miami trio' in the Big East instead of moving to the ACC. Probably not going to happen, but at this point, I think it might be at least a possibility. Notre Dame does not want to be in the Big10, and if the Big East breaks up, I doubt they want to have all of their other sports a part of the 'new Big East' minus Syracuse/BC/Miami. This puts a bit of pressure on ND to join in football (but probably not enough pressure to actually make them do it, still stranger things have happened). __________________ 81-78 Cincinnati basketball writer P. Daugherty, "Connor Barwin playing several minutes against Syracuse is like kids with slingshots taking down Caesar's legions."

05-15-2003, 01:19 PM	#108
Ksyrup This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off. Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: In Absentia	What I mean by no tangible gains is that it's possible that the future TV deals won't be as lucrative as they have been in the past, which would offset the potential gains in market by adding Miami, NY, and Boston. That's got to be where they think the extra money is goig to come from. But that might not happen, given the reality of where TV contracts appear headed and the state of the economy right now. __________________ M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete."

05-15-2003, 01:43 PM	#110
Ksyrup This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off. Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: In Absentia	That's why I said NY. As in state, at least the college football/Syracuse fans. I wouldn't pretend that NYC gives a hoot about college football. The North is different, I know. Hell, I lived just outside of Ann Arbor growing up, and UM still was a distant second to pro football. And we're talking late 70's/early 80's LIONS here! __________________ M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete."

05-15-2003, 02:00 PM	#113
Marmel Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Manchester, CT	Outside of Syracuse itself, NYC is the largest syracuse alumni base. They won't be getting the NYC market, but they will tap into it a bit, as well as tap into the New York State market. __________________ 81-78 Cincinnati basketball writer P. Daugherty, "Connor Barwin playing several minutes against Syracuse is like kids with slingshots taking down Caesar's legions."

05-15-2003, 04:22 PM	#115
Ksyrup This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off. Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: In Absentia	You can't argue with getting 110,000 fans in the stadium. I just remember from my perspective that pro sports were always #1 growing up in Michigan (Livonia, actually). We got up for the UM/OSU and UM/MSU games, but other than that, I don't really recall watching a lick of college football growing up, until I moved to College Station, TX in 1983. __________________ M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete."

05-15-2003, 11:00 AM	#102
Radii Head Coach Join Date: Jul 2001	How long does Notre Dame have their own special clause for the BCS and national title games? As long as they are given that I can't imagine they'd ever join a conference. Without it, I can easiliy see them in the Big East. But it'd be too late for them to impcat this current set of events I would think.

05-15-2003, 11:04 AM	#103
Wolfpack Pro Rookie Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Raleigh, NC	Hey Radii! You aren't alone in your thinking! (I wonder why... ) Seriously, though, while I am overjoyed at what Chuck's doing for the football program, if this expasion comes to pass and the divisions break like they might, this year might be his last best chance at getting at least the conference title. Having a possibility of playing FSU and Miami, let alone Tech, Clemson, and whichever of the other Big 4 schools (I think Wake, never an easy out anymore) will make it pretty dang hard to win the title. To others: don't be surprised if NC State is the "trendy" pick (which is usually a very bad thing, IMO) for the ACC title this year. It is the last year for Philip Rivers and we've got just about the best team talent-wise our school has ever fielded. Realistically, with road games at FSU and OSU, along with a Maryland team that always seems to get a break against us and a Tech team that has absolutely owned the series over recent seasons, I'd be happy with 8-4 and everything else being gravy. As pointed out earlier, next year will be the true telling point of how far this program has come when Rivers graduates and we have to hand the reins over to Jay Davis (redshirt Soph.) or Marcus Stone (redshirt frosh, likely). Back to the topic-at-hand, I'm sure the Big East is going to be making a heck of a pitch to the Canes to keep them. About the only thing I can think would be successful would be to break the conference from the basketball schools as described earlier and then adding either Penn State or Notre Dame to the mix, plus perhaps some others to get the Big East to 12 teams. And for all you Syracuse fans, many ACC fans generally agree with you on this one point: they don't want you in the league, either. Most of them want VaTech over BC and/or Syracuse. Some, including the FSU fans, are beginning to feel like Miami's dictating too much to the ACC about who we should bring in and that's beginning to bother them. It could very well fall apart anway.

05-15-2003, 11:06 AM	#104
GrantDawg World Champion Mis-speller Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Covington, Ga.	Yeah, if I were Notre Dame I wouldn't join the Big Ten either. To hard a conference. I think Miami leaving might add to their joining the Big East, but I doubt they will with there own television network and BCS guarentee. What I was saying was that ND joining the Big Ten would be good for college football at large (and college football fans in general).

05-15-2003, 12:55 PM	#106
Anrhydeddu Resident Curmudgeon Join Date: Oct 2002	Just think, all these school administrators and staff thought this was simply another junket to go down to Florida to play golf and pretend to work.

05-15-2003, 01:34 PM	#109
Anrhydeddu Resident Curmudgeon Join Date: Oct 2002	Adding NY as in NYC??? How? Don't say Syracuse or else I'll come down there and smack ya.

05-15-2003, 01:54 PM	#112
Anrhydeddu Resident Curmudgeon Join Date: Oct 2002	Never knew that, if it's true. Being a Syracuse native, I know we want to have nothing to with NYC and vice versa.

05-15-2003, 03:53 PM	#114
Wolfpack Pro Rookie Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Raleigh, NC	Ksyrup: I live in Ann Arbor now, actually. I think the debacle of the last couple of years in Detroit has probably shifted the interest more to the Wolverines. (I still think the sports reports up here suck hind teat anyway...I miss having out-of-town highlights and scores...the station I grew up with in North Carolina ran down just about every sports score they could get a hand on and showed highlights to quite a few of them.)

05-15-2003, 09:55 PM	#118
Wolfpack Pro Rookie Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Raleigh, NC	ksyrup: I do kinda see that. People up here are totally in love with the Red Wings (as a Canes fan, I must admit great satisfaction when they stole game one at the Joe in last year's Final, leaving some stunned faces in the stands) and have shown renewed interest in the resurgent Pistons, but the Lions and Tigers mean a whole lot of nothing between the end of April and the middle of October.

05-15-2003, 10:02 PM	#120
Ksyrup This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off. Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: In Absentia	When I lived there, NONE of the pro teams were any good. I left a couple years before the 84 Tigers won it all. But the Pistons, Lions, and Wings sucked royally back in the late 70's/early 80's. __________________ M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete."

05-15-2003, 10:21 PM	#121
VPI97 Hokie, Hokie, Hokie, Hi Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Kennesaw, GA	Strong rumor: Apparently, there's a plan in place for Notre Dame to play a pseudo Big East schedule to help boost the value of the BE's TV contract and keep Miami in the conference. They would not join the football conference as an official member, but would play 3 Big East teams + Miami yearly. The word is that Miami has agreed to stay if this agreement is official. In exchange for this, Notre Dame would continue to participate in the Big East's bowl situation + a few non-football perks in the conference. FWIW, Notre Dame has had a stake in the football conference already (despite not being a full member), so this is their way of protecting themselves...the Big East folding would hurt them. Note - It is a rumor, so take it for what it's worth...but it comes from a reliable source. __________________ CT & Jivin - "Surprisingly Entertaining"

05-16-2003, 05:19 PM	#124
Radii Head Coach Join Date: Jul 2001	http://espn.go.com/ncaa/news/2003/0516/1555056.html "It was not known Friday if Virginia vetoed expansion without the Hokies. But WRAL.com is reporting that Duke changed its vote. On Tuesday, Duke voted against expansion. But Friday, the Blue Devils joined the ranks in support of expanding to 12 teams in the ACC if the expansion included Miami, Syracuse and Boston College." Fucking Blue Devils. I thought for ONCE UNC and Duke would agree on something.

05-16-2003, 05:53 PM	#127
digamma Torchbearer Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: On Lake Harriet	Actually, I think this was set up as a two-tiered vote on purpose, in order to assure its passage. Think about it...Duke and UNC were under pressure to vote against expansion for a number of reasons. In the initial "should we expand vote" they both voted no. They can tell their alumni that they voted against expansion. Next, you have a vote on who comes in as part of the expansion. BC, Syracuse and Miami are put forward. Because of the political pressure surrounding Virginia Tech, UVA votes against this proposal, but Duke (keeping in mind expansion, as a concept having already passed) agrees to vote for it because it, like the rest of the conference save UVA, would rather have BC and Syracuse rather than VPI and one of those two teams. Virginia can then say it voted against the plan that did not include Virginia Tech. Last edited by digamma : 05-16-2003 at 05:54 PM.

05-16-2003, 06:30 PM	#128
Ksyrup This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off. Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: In Absentia	I think that's how it went. Duke and NC voted against the idea of expansion, to satisfy their folks. Once it was decided to expand, Duke and/or NC can feel free to vote for who comes in, because whether there's going to be expansion is already a done deal, and at that point, they are just voting for the teams that make the most sense. That allows Virginia to vote for expansion (to include Va Tech), but then vote against one or more of the specific teams because VT isn't among them. Everyone gets to make it look like they protested at the right time, yet everything goes forward as originally planned. FWIW, here in Tally and down in Miami, the word is that all of this was a done deal before anything ever leaked out about the attempt to expand. The ACC would never have gotten as far as a vote on expansion if this wasn't already a done deal. At least that's what they are saying here - barring some unforeseen last-minute switch, of course. __________________ M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete."

05-16-2003, 07:58 PM	#129
Noop Bonafide Seminole Fan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Miami	Ksyrup are you a member of www.warchant.com? Because I swear I seen that post on their message board today. noop __________________ Subby's favorite woman hater.

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