Students Have Whites-Only Prom in Taylor Co. GA

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by John Galt
I think your analysis may be very regional and mistake certain types of integration with complete integration. Here in NYC, for example, there is still a heavy degree of Asian (especially Chinese) separatism. This in large part probably due to language and the continued vitality of Chinatown. In other places, however, the Asian communities are integrated in social and living situations. Similarly, ethnic enclaves of Hispanics exist in many areas whereas they are heavily integrated in others.

Also, black Americans often experience housing and school segration to a greater degree than other minorities (and school segragation is due almost entirely to housting segregation). The long term result is often social segregation. This doesn't mean other minorities don't experience different problems that aren't visible from a simple social view (ie Asians experiencing the problems of being "model minorities" or Hispanics struggling with English as the primary language in the US). I'm not really disagreeing with what you have said - I just think there are different types of integration that need to be accounted for.

I have to agree with John Galt for the most part here. While there are "assimilated" minorities of all kinds here in metro Atlanta, there are also a good number of non-black minorities who separate themselves.

[Fritz]

Originally posted by SkyDog
ROFLMBOA!!!

Roll On the Floor Like Marlon Brando On Acid?

[JPhillips]

My problem, and the reason I posted this in the first place, is not that groups have a natural tendency to form groups. What bothers me is that one group is saying all are welcoem while the other group is saying F$#% You, we'll have our own and you can't come. That's wrong whether its coming from the whites or the blacks.

If the whites wanted to have a seperate party where all are welcome, that's one thing. That would speak to the kind of cultural differences, ie music, that have been discussed. When the white students say blacks can't come, that steps over the line into racism plain and simple.

Its sad to see a step toward some sort of reconciliation be turned back this year. A prom is only a small start, but it was a start. The parents that are allowing this, and funding it, should be ashamed.

[John Galt]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
See what happened when we carried on? Great, now you're going to get John back in a lather (not leather, Fritz).

I'll try not to disappoint.

I want to offer a different view about racism than the one most people hear are using.

Racism in modern America is not about saying, "blacks are inferior" or "Hispanics are all in gangs." Sure, those things are said, but everyone knows those ideas are racist. Yet, when you survey people, no one stands up and says, "Yeah, I'm a racist." Even the neo-Nazis and KKK rarely call themselves racist. They try to spin their views as being racial pride. They even analogize themselves to Malcom X type separatists and argue that there is no difference.

Since no one is going to say, "I'm a racist," how do you know one when you see them? The answer is behavior. Racism isn't about intent these days - it is about what you do.

If you are hiring at a company and interview 100s of candidates and never hire a black candidate, you may be a racist. You can say that the whites or Asians were "better qualified," but you may also be using merit as a proxy for racism. When you decide to move your family to a "nicer" neighborhood with "better" schools, you might be a racist. You can argue that it is just "better," but you might also be running away from a diverse community because you fear it. When you see a couple black youths approaching you on the street late at night and fear for your life and property, you might be a racist. You can say that they were dressed like "gangsters" and looked "menacing," but what you may really mean is that blacks who dress in a fashion popular in black subculture are to be feared.

Racism is about using proxies to rationalize fear and hate.

When the white students at this school say they want their own prom because of the music, they might be a bunch of racists. They can say that their tastes are different and they would rather listen to something besides rap. See where that path leads over time? Races don't integrate, people don't get to know other cultures, and fear and hate continue.

This doesn't mean that if you hate rap or Sean John wear that you are a racist, but it then again, it could.

I'm a racist. I try hard everyday not to be, but I am. I make assumptions about minorities that I know are wrong. Someday, I hope I won't make as many assumptions. These kids in Georgia should do the same. Go to the prom together and listen to each other's music. Separatism is a bankrupt philosophy that should be pushed out of this high school (and pushed out of Augusta National as well ).

[Fritz]

Originally posted by John Galt

no one is going to say, "I'm a racist,"

...

I'm a racist.

Therefore John is no one.


see, in a simple proof I have made John vanish, forever.

[Ben E Lou]

JPhillips:

Consider this for a moment. Here you have a cultural situtation that allows for a white class president and a black class president, and for 30+ years allowed for a black prom and a white prom. If that is the place where people are living, it is a VERY small jump from there to an exclusionist prom. I just have some serious doubts that there are overtly evil intentions behind this.

[John Galt]

Originally posted by Fritz
Therefore John is no one.


see, in a simple proof I have made John vanish, forever.

That was the funniest Fritz-ism I've read. Maybe I just like it because it is about me, but it was very clever.

[CamEdwards]

Originally posted by Senator
Black vs White
Jews vs Arabs
Pepsi vs Coke
Dallas vs Washington
Dell vs Gateway
Irish Catholics vs Irish Protestants

It seems somewhere in the DNA of humans a gene is ingrained to make an US vs THEM in just about every way possible. Education seems to help, but on the flip side some of the most educated people I have known are the biggest bigots you ever have seen.

I wish I knew the answer, I really do.

You forgot Senators vs. Representatives.

As far as what John Galt is saying, of course you "could" be a racist in those situations, but then again, you "could" be a sexist if you're a man and you only screw women. Or you "could" be an ageist because you don't like to hang out with 90-year-olds.

Or you "could" be intellectually superior because you vote Democrat, but again... not likely.

[Fritz]

Originally posted by John Galt
That was the funniest Fritz-ism I've read. Maybe I just like it because it is about me, but it was very clever.

hmmm must have been a flaw in the logic somewhere...


(thanks john. even a plecostomus does not always eat off the bottom)

[John Galt]

Originally posted by CamEdwards
As far as what John Galt is saying, of course you "could" be a racist in those situations, but then again, you "could" be a sexist if you're a man and you only screw women. Or you "could" be an ageist because you don't like to hang out with 90-year-olds.

Or you "could" be intellectually superior because you vote Democrat, but again... not likely.

I try to play with a Jeff Foxworthy joke and it gets used against me. Oh well.

When it comes to judging behavior, though, remember what they always say, "If it smells like a Fritz, and posts like a Fritz, then it is probably really Subby in disguise."

[JPhillips]

Skydog: I'm not necessarily saying there are evil intentions, although I think after having one inclusionary prom its hard to justify going back to an exclusive dance. My problem is that a chance to bring two groups of people together has been missed. A prom isn't going to solve all race problems/misundersatndings, but its a start. Missing this opportunity isn't something that should be viewed as anything but a failure.

I put a lot of the blame on the parents. Without money from mom and dad this couldn't happen. Of course I don't know these people personally, but I have a hard time believing that the motives behind this are pure.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by John Galt
When it comes to judging behavior, though, remember what they always say, "If it smells like a Fritz, and posts like a Fritz, then it is probably really Subby in disguise."

We're rubbing off on John Galt. He actually made a joke on purpose.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Hey SD, do you remember off-hand how many grocery stores are in Taylor County?

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by JonInMiddleGA
Hey SD, do you remember off-hand how many grocery stores are in Taylor County?

No. Never bought groceries there. Why do you ask? Are there any?

I DO remember that there was only one fast-food place to eat when I was in high school--a Hardees.

[Fritz]

Originally posted by John Galt
I try to play with a Jeff Foxworthy joke and it gets used against me. Oh well.

When it comes to judging behavior, though, remember what they always say, "If it smells like a Fritz, and posts like a Fritz, then it is probably really Subby in disguise."

You know John, Subby is crass like me but has politics and attitudes like you. A real lose/lose combination.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Hey, that lone Hardee's describes a lot of the towns we played against in HS

The reason behind my grocery store question was something I see here every day -- largely segregated shopping, pretty apparently by choice.

We've got two groceries here, one significantly newer & larger than the other. The new/big one draws nearly all of the white customers, the older/smaller one draws nearly all of the black customers. The employee & management makeup of both is similar, I've never heard anyone of either race complain about any different treatment in either store.

As far as I've been able to tell, it's a case of segregated behavior by choice, not design or force. Both stores would love to have the shopping dollar of 100% of the population, but there are pretty benign factors at work which produce the end result. Things such as the black population being somewhat older than the white population, meaning that shopping habits are more ingrained & smaller stores with things in familiar locations are more user-friendly.

I guess my point here goes back to your comment about it being possible to read more into things than really exist sometimes.

[Ben E Lou]

John,

Wow. I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't a decent-sized grocery store in Taylor County at all. Check out these numbers from the thread last year:

This is a QUITE remote area. Taylor County High School is the only high school in the entire county, and there are only a little over 400 students in the school. As the article states, they have to travel 50 miles to get to Columbus (my home town--metro area has approx. 250,000 people), for the prom. The high school is located in the town of Butler (population 1,907) which is the county seat of Taylor County (total county population 8,815). Back when I was in high school, there was exactly ONE fast food place in Butler, a Hardee's. Believe me, this place is remote, VERY remote. It is one of those towns that pretty much completely shuts down when the high school has a football or basketball game.

[tucker342]

that's sad

WHY CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?!?!?!

[GrantDawg]

I have no comment as long as Chief Rum doesn't.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by GrantDawg
I have no comment as long as Chief Rum doesn't.

He'll get on in the middle of the night and have SOMETHING to say, no doubt. Just don't get him into small-novel mode.

[CamEdwards]

As funny as JohnGalt's last post was (and it was a good one John... I'm proud of you!), Fritz always finds a way to end up on top.


Which is odd, considering that his "daddy" told me Fritz is really a bottom.

[Anrhydeddu]

Originally posted by JPhillips
My problem, and the reason I posted this in the first place, is not that groups have a natural tendency to form groups. What bothers me is that one group is saying all are welcoem while the other group is saying F$#% You, we'll have our own and you can't come. That's wrong whether its coming from the whites or the blacks.

If the whites wanted to have a seperate party where all are welcome, that's one thing. That would speak to the kind of cultural differences, ie music, that have been discussed. When the white students say blacks can't come, that steps over the line into racism plain and simple.

Its sad to see a step toward some sort of reconciliation be turned back this year. A prom is only a small start, but it was a start. The parents that are allowing this, and funding it, should be ashamed.

I agree with everything said here.

John Galt: In your lengthy lathered speech, you used only examples of anti-black "racism". Why is that? Is that all you see or know about or care to use? What if you substituted the assumed "white" with black and the black with an Asian (or Hispanic). Would your examples still be true?

I beg to differ on your definition of "racism". Racism is about a belief in the superiority of a particular race; anatagonism toward other races as a result of this belief; and the theory that human abilities are determined by race (source: Oxford Dictionary, 1996). What you are describing is something else (prejudice? bigotry? I don't know) but it is not racism if it is not in the context of superiority/inferiority.

There are differences in cultures that can be defined by race, just as they are by geography and economics. But in no way should that imply that one is better than another. We can celebrate those differences among culture and among heritage (through clothing, music, worship service, food, dance, etc.) but it seems being different (or uniqueness) is now being deemed as racist, esp. if we prefer one difference over another.

[Chief Rum]

Originally posted by GrantDawg
I have no comment as long as Chief Rum doesn't.

lol, yeah, I was trying to remember if this was the issue we butted heads on.

I'm not going to make any big statements or nothing. Most of what I would say has already been said.

The only things I would say is that, if anyone defending the actions of the Taylor County segregation thinks the point of those thinking otherwise is that this is evil racism at its clearest, I would definitely say, for me at least, that it's not as clear.

I think it's very subjective and subtle. It is racism. There's no doubt about it in my mind. But it is also culture. And it is apparently a very voluntary behavior in Taylor County, for all sides.

I don't think that calling it anything other than racism makes it right. But I am hard pressed to find a way for them to do it differently. I agree with John or JPhillips (whoever it was) that it starts with the parents. But they are only acting out what they learned from their parents. And the grandparents what they learned from their parents.

It's an endless cycle until someone chooses to be different. And in that respect I do think that the return of a segregated prom is essentially a step back after the progress that was made last year. It calls into question that there was any progress at all. And it calls into question whether or not this particular culture will ever really change. And that's kinda sad to me.

I agree 100% with John Galt (did I say that?) about the general existence of subtle racism. It may not be as overt or culturally accepted as it is in Taylor County, but it does still exist.

I'll even join John Galt and say that I am a racist, too. Not by choice, but by reflex. And I have to fight it every day. When I get on a bus to go to work and I just want to relax and prepare for the rest of the day, I do get tremendously annoyed when a Latina mom sits down across the way with her four noisy kids, all chattering away. Yeah, there's real reason for annoyance (the unnecessary noise factor), but I can't say my mind always says "damn loud kids." Sometimes my mind says "damn loud Mexican kids" and "why are there always so many Mexican kids?". I tell myself not to do it--I berate myself strongly. But the thought will often come unbidden.

Same thing when I see a shaved head Mexican with tats all over his arms, or a black youth with dreads. Some corner of my mind gets me watchful, like I'm suddenly going to get jumped by a gang. It's phenomenally stupid and it's not at all conscious most of the time. But it does happen. And like John said he does, I try hard every day to work to improve that.

Now consider living in an area where thoughts like that not only come around often, but perhaps they are accepted a bit socially? I think that might be the way it is in Taylor County, and I can't imagine how incredibly difficult it must be to overcome that (when it can be so hard myself, living in a more racially-integrated culture in California).

Okay, I guess I did have a lot to say.

Chief Rum

[KWhit]

Originally posted by JonInMiddleGA
KWhit -- I know it's just a typo but in case anyone gets confused, that would be the Governor of Georgia, not the mayor.

Yes, that is correct. I was typing without thinking again.

Thanks.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by Chief Rum
The only things I would say is that, if anyone defending the actions of the Taylor County segregation thinks the point of those thinking otherwise is that this is evil racism at its clearest, I would definitely say, for me at least, that it's not as clear.

I hope you don't hear me as one defending the actions. I agree 100% that this is a step backward (although I'll bet ya dollars to doughnuts that it will lead to three steps forward soon). What bothered me is that I sensed a lot of finger-pointing and I did get the vibe from some "that this is evil racism at its clearest." Having had some interaction with Taylor County folks (both black and white), and just don't see them being that malicious. Behind-the-times certainly, but not malicious.

(Speaking of grammar, what is the proper way to include that final sentence fragment of my post? Should I have put a dash on what is now the penulatimate sentence, or is the final phrase an "acceptable fragment?")

[sterlingice]

Originally posted by SkyDog
(Speaking of grammar, what is the proper way to include that final sentence fragment of my post? Should I have put a dash on what is now the penulatimate sentence, or is the final phrase an "acceptable fragment?")

If you can accept the advice of a person about to use the word "sentenced" improperly, I'll field that one. No, that fragment doesn't work and it needs to be "sentenced": They might be behind-the-times certainly, but not malicious.

SI

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by sterlingice
If you can accept the advice of a person about to use the word "sentenced" improperly, I'll field that one. No, that fragment doesn't work and it needs to be "sentenced": They might be behind-the-times certainly, but not malicious.

SI

Hmmmm.....I agree that way is "correct," but I feel like the statement loses some "oomph" that way. No biggie though.

[sterlingice]

Originally posted by SkyDog
Hmmmm.....I agree that way is "correct," but I feel like the statement loses some "oomph" that way. No biggie though.

Nah, you're right. It *does* alter the connotation. I'm usually pretty good at this stuff but I really shouldn't be trying to do grammar at 4 am. I'm a Comp Sci major for chrissakes. Grammar is supposed to be heavy listing for us (tho, it's nice to have the edge on classmates).

SI

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by Chief Rum
Same thing when I see a shaved head Mexican with tats all over his arms, or a black youth with dreads. Some corner of my mind gets me watchful, like I'm suddenly going to get jumped by a gang. It's phenomenally stupid and it's not at all conscious most of the time. But it does happen. And like John said he does, I try hard every day to work to improve that.

Chief Rum

So when I do that to white teenagers, am I still being racist? I see a group of teenagers dressed in certain ways, I don't care if they are blue, green, purple or otherwise, I watch them carefully. And with reason, as I was once one of those youths. Race has much less to do with it than what they are doing.

[scooper]

Originally posted by Samdari
*Leaves to start an "I Like Boobies" thread*

I can't find this thread

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by SkyDog
(Speaking of grammar, what is the proper way to include that final sentence fragment of my post? Should I have put a dash on what is now the penulatimate sentence, or is the final phrase an "acceptable fragment?")

I, for one, think it's fine. In my view, once you have established that you have proper command of the language, and are able to properly construct sentences and paragraphs - then you get some license. In this case, I think it is an acceptable fragment - because in context, the remainder of the sentence of clearly implied, but excluded for effect (or "oomph"). Passes my test.

[Fritz]

Originally posted by QuikSand
In my view, once you have established that you have proper command of the language, and are able to properly construct sentences and paragraphs - then you get some license.

What do I need to do to get a learner's permit?

[albionmoonlight]

Grammar Rule #712: A man who properly can use the word penulatimate will generally have OK grammar.

[KWhit]

Originally posted by albionmoonlight
Grammar Rule #712: A man who properly can use the word penulatimate will generally have OK grammar.

Someone who can spell penultimate will do even better.

[Fritz]

I am the penlambadachampion of the world!