Vikes - why did they pass ?

[Alf]

Can someone explain ? No one wanted to trade down ? they wanted to keep a little bit of their money ? Any other explanation ?

[Noble_Platypus]

They dont know what they are doing. It must be complete chaos in the Vikes war room.

[RonnieDobbs]

Trying to make a trade, it didn't work. They got their guy for less money, but got lucky and he may be pissed about missing out on the cash.

[MikeVic]

Tice said that he thought Billick sent in his card with the trade, but he didn't.. isn't that the case?

[Abe Sargent]

They won't be paying him less money. They'll get less rookie cap becuase he was selected later, but you know that his agent will want more - it's a sticky situation that won't be resolved soon. On the other hand, my team got Leftwich because of it, so......

-Anxiety

[Anthony]

they drafted Randy Moss and Dante Caulpepper - they know what they're doing. the only thing they did wrong was getting rid of Denny Green.

[mckerney]

Originally posted by Hell Atlantic
they drafted Randy Moss and Dante Caulpepper - they know what they're doing. the only thing they did wrong was getting rid of Denny Green.

You couldn't be more wrong, and I couldn't be more happy that Green is gone.

[The_herd]

Originally posted by Hell Atlantic
they drafted Randy Moss and Dante Caulpepper - they know what they're doing. the only thing they did wrong was getting rid of Denny Green.

Yeah, the way the last 2 drafts have gone clearly shows that they have everything under control.

[The Afoci]

denny was a great coach when his gameplan went right, if anything went wrong though, (second half of nfc title game against Alanta, first 2 minutes of nfc title game against NY) he couldn't change on the fly. The team would adapt week to week, but couldn't during games.

[QuikSand]

ESPN is giving some of the "credit" to the Jacksonville front office, for keeping the Vikes on the phone and making it tougher for them to work out a deal with Baltimore (for Leftwich, who Jacksonville wanted, obviously). I don't know if that's true, but it does sound possible, and another interesting layer to this.

[cthomer5000]

Originally posted by QuikSand
ESPN is giving some of the "credit" to the Jacksonville front office, for keeping the Vikes on the phone and making it tougher for them to work out a deal with Baltimore (for Leftwich, who Jacksonville wanted, obviously). I don't know if that's true, but it does sound possible, and another interesting layer to this.

I've been thinking about this all afternoon. With two ex-Ravens occupying high positions in Jacksonville, it could have been a set up.

[ISiddiqui]

From SI.com

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/ins.../ravens_draft/

But then things got wacky. The Vikings called in their end of the trade to the league, but the Ravens, with the seconds dwindling, couldn't get through to Bussert. Minnesota's clock expired, the Vikings were forced to pass on their pick, and Jacksonville rushed to submit its card, drafting Leftwich.

With the player they intended to draft at No. 7 gone, the Ravens told the Vikings their deal was off and prepared to select Suggs. After Carolina took Utah offensive tackle Jordan Gross, Minnesota jumped back into the draft at the No. 9, selecting Oklahoma State defensive end Kevin Williams, the player they had targeted at the No. 10 spot.

Banks also backs the idea that Jacksonville tried to prevent the trade by some shrewd (or shady) dealing:

Officials in Baltimore believe that the Jaguars had no interest in dealing with the Vikings, but wanted to keep Minnesota on the line in an effort to keep the pick and Leftwich away from Baltimore. In other words, the Jaguars were trying to run out the clock on the Ravens, a goal they apparently realized.

"It was [Jags head coach] Jack Del Rio talking to Tice, throwing out different options and keeping the Vikings on the line," said a source with the Ravens. "The Vikings waited too long. Ozzie kept telling Tice, 'Mike, you're running out of time, you're running out of time.' But they kept bouncing back and forth, negotiating with both of us. It was pretty shrewd by Del Rio."

[tucker342]

If that's the case, than it was a very smart move by the Jags...

Ya it's great having a WR that "Only plays when he feels like it," you must be very proud...

[SunDancer]

Actually,
Why would the agent demand more? If they made the trade, they would of took him at No. 10, and then pay him No. 10 pick salary. He would be getting No. 9 pick salary.

[The Afoci]

Originally posted by tucker342
Ya it's great having a WR that "Only plays when he feels like it," you must be very proud...

That thing is a little overblown... Yes he needs to know when to shut his mouth, but I can't think of one reciever that plays 100% every play. If it is a sweep to the right and he is on the left, he could go all out it would do nothing. I would rather have him save his energy for the next play when daunte throws a pick and we need someone to chase him down and make a tackle....but yeah, everyone does it, he was the only one dumb enough to say it...

[Aylmar]

Originally posted by The Afoci
That thing is a little overblown... Yes he needs to know when to shut his mouth, but I can't think of one reciever that plays 100% every play.

I can. Hines Ward.

[cthomer5000]

Originally posted by Aylmar
I can. Hines Ward.

seriously. I remember one play where he fumbled, and then HE tackled the guy 30 yards downfield. it was unbeleivable. The guy busts his ass on every play

[The Afoci]

I am sure he does, but are you telling me that if they run a sweep left and he is out far right, he puts the same effort he would if the play is coming his direction. If he does, he is the exception, not the rule. All I saying is that is it really that important for a star wide reciever to risk getting his had caught in a face mask or in some guys pads, break a finger while trying to make a block that will more than likely have no effect on the play.

[The_herd]

Originally posted by The Afoci
I am sure he does, but are you telling me that if they run a sweep left and he is out far right, he puts the same effort he would if the play is coming his direction. If he does, he is the exception, not the rule. All I saying is that is it really that important for a star wide reciever to risk getting his had caught in a face mask or in some guys pads, break a finger while trying to make a block that will more than likely have no effect on the play.

This is football, if he's afaid of breaking a finger he can go play tennis.

[Noble_Platypus]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by The Afoci
That thing is a little overblown... Yes he needs to know when to shut his mouth, but I can't think of one reciever that plays 100% every play.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MARVIN HARRISON
Somebody needs to explain to Moss That potential is only a good thing if the player isnt a lazy ass and develops it. Marvin doesnt have the "potential" that Moss does, but Marvin works hard and all he does is catch an NFL record 143 passes on a team without another guy who can consistantly catch. Go watch film of Harrison and tell me he isnt 100% every play, every game.

[Daimyo]

They say Marvin gives the same effort running every route no matter what is called... apparently that is one of the big reasons the play-action works the Colts. The defender gets no clue from Marvin if its going to be a deep pass to him, someone else, or a run.

[MylesKnight]

Quick Answer - Vikes thought they were playing Press Your Luck.. (That was a bit corny, wasn't it..)

[Aylmar]

Originally posted by The Afoci
I am sure he does, but are you telling me that if they run a sweep left and he is out far right, he puts the same effort he would if the play is coming his direction.

That's exactly what I'm saying. I've seen countless plays where Ward starts out on the side of the field opposite of the direction where the ball is designed to go...and ends up throwing a key block downfield because he's hustling around the field trying to find a way to contribute to the play. You don't have to get the ball or have the ball come near you to be important, you know.

[ISiddiqui]

Rice also plays hard on every play. Or at least he did, I'm not sure anymore, but I'd say he hasn't changed .

[oykib]

There are a number of receivers who work hard. When Keyshawn was with the Jets he always worked hard.

[Ragone]

No whammy Big money no Whammy Stop!

[Alan T]

That was a great show

[mckerney]

Originally posted by cthomer5000
seriously. I remember one play where he fumbled, and then HE tackled the guy 30 yards downfield. it was unbeleivable. The guy busts his ass on every play

Originally posted by Aylmar
That's exactly what I'm saying. I've seen countless plays where Ward starts out on the side of the field opposite of the direction where the ball is designed to go...and ends up throwing a key block downfield because he's hustling around the field trying to find a way to contribute to the play. You don't have to get the ball or have the ball come near you to be important, you know.

I can remember plays from last year where Moss ran 20 yards back downfield and dove to recover a fumble with several players from both teams going for it, and in a meaningless game towards the end of the year. And remember the 60 yard runs Bennett had last year? Who do you think threw the last block downfield that allowed him to get free? I've also seen Moss running downfield after a turnover.

Moss does play hard and you might actually want to watch him play before you get all caught up in bashing him. Moss really can't win in the opinions of those who criticize him. Near the end of the New England game he took himself out for a play after having run several consecutive deep routes, and he's callout out for removing himself and abandoning his team. Though if he were to stay in when he's to tired to run full speed, however, then he's not trying. He's one of the top players in the game and is able to have a huge impact, despite D'Wayne Bates starting opposite him last year. Anyone who would not want Moss on their team is an idiot.

By the way, all I really see from what I read above is that this Hines Wards seems to have a fumble problem...

[The Afoci]

Originally posted by The_herd
This is football, if he's afaid of breaking a finger he can go play tennis.

I didn't mean to infer he is afraid of breaking his finger, what I meant was it would not be worth breaking it on that sort of play. What I don't understand is why everyone bashes him. He does play hard when it is needed. He cares alot about the game of football.

But I do contend that maybe it looks like it, but most recievers don't put the same effort into blocking a play that goes away from them compared to one that is coming at them.

[Aylmar]

Originally posted by mckerney
Moss does play hard and you might actually want to watch him play before you get all caught up in bashing him.

Maybe you should read the posts before you say that I'm bashing Moss. The Afoci said he couldn't name one receiver that hustled every play. I said I could, and used Hines Ward as my example. In fact, this is the first time I've even used Randy's name. Hard to bash a guy without using his name, isn't it? Or is illustrating someone that plays hard every snap in some way bashing Moss?

By the way, all I really see from what I read above is that this Hines Wards seems to have a fumble problem...

Pot...kettle...you get the picture.

[The Afoci]

Originally posted by Aylmar
Maybe you should read the posts before you say that I'm bashing Moss. The Afoci said he couldn't name one receiver that hustled every play. I said I could, and used Hines Ward as my example.

Not to be repetitive, but do you believe Hines Ward or any reciever blocks with the same intensity when the play goes away from him as he does when it is coming towards him. I don't think so.

[Aylmar]

Originally posted by The Afoci
Not to be repetitive, but do you believe Hines Ward or any reciever blocks with the same intensity when the play goes away from him as he does when it is coming towards him. I don't think so.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, because I think you're wrong. Some guys block the same no matter what. Not all guys, but some of them do.

[The Afoci]

Originally posted by Aylmar
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, because I think you're wrong. Some guys block the same no matter what. Not all guys, but some of them do.

Yeah, I will accept that, but the more I think about the whole giving a 100% every play, the less I see it as true. Do you think that in the 3rd quarter of a 42-0 game the team is putting the same effort as a 14-14 4th quarter Super Bowl Game. I doubt it.

[Aylmar]

Originally posted by The Afoci
Yeah, I will accept that, but the more I think about the whole giving a 100% every play, the less I see it as true. Do you think that in the 3rd quarter of a 42-0 game the team is putting the same effort as a 14-14 4th quarter Super Bowl Game. I doubt it.

The team as a whole? No. Certain players on the team? Absolutely (if they aren't sitting on the sideline in a 42-0 blowout).

[WSUCougar]

I think the issue is one of attitude rather than one of actual results on the field. The question (to me) is whether Moss applies his incredible talents only when he is motivated to do so. Is it something he turns on and off? If that is the case, give me Marvin Harrison instead.

(I am a Vikings fan).

[Dutch]

BTW, When the play is going the other way is the precise time you are supposed to pretend you are involved in the play.

Keyshawn Johnson has moved in motion, and then faded to the corner, drawing just about everybody towards him, only for the play to go to the backside TE who's standing their in the endzone all by himself.

Hines Ward is AMAZING to watch play football. Last year he was reaching up high for a Stuart pass and simply got popped! After he got up off the ground he went back in, ran across the middle again and leaped up high and got popped again. And no worse for wear. He ended up making about 4 or 5 more catches in that game, doing whatever the plays asked him to do. Wow! I want that guy on my team!

I have seen Randy Moss many times saunter out to his position and take a couple of "courtesy steps" and find his way back to the huddle or sideline while the play went the other way. If he has changed, it was last year since I hadn't had the chance to see him a whole lot last year (they don't show 3-13 teams over hear).

[The Afoci]

I guess maybe it is just me, but I don't care if a guy takes a few plays off that he should have little to no effect on it. In fact I would love to see Moss go against a corner that plays 100% against him everyplay. So when he is resting on a sweep to the oppisite side, he can waste his energy and when Moss is sent deep, he is well rested.

I do admit there are players that play harder every play though. Where Moss may only give a 50% effort on the play, harrison or ward may put 90%, but I doubt they are truly "100%" every play. I just don't see someone putting the same effort every play, every time. It is like work, I consider myself a tough worker, but I don't always bring the same effort from day to day.

[cthomer5000]

Originally posted by The Afoci
I guess maybe it is just me, but I don't care if a guy takes a few plays off that he should have little to no effect on it. In fact I would love to see Moss go against a corner that plays 100% against him everyplay. So when he is resting on a sweep to the oppisite side, he can waste his energy and when Moss is sent deep, he is well rested.

I do admit there are players that play harder every play though. Where Moss may only give a 50% effort on the play, harrison or ward may put 90%, but I doubt they are truly "100%" every play. I just don't see someone putting the same effort every play, every time. It is like work, I consider myself a tough worker, but I don't always bring the same effort from day to day.

I've seen clips put together of Moss during single games where he will take myabe 4 steps off the line and then basically stand there as the play runs itself out.

Maybe you haven't realized this Afoci, but aside from a cornerback, there are safeties actively watching what the recievers are doing. Moss not selling a play could be the reason the Vikings end up with an incomplete pass or short of the first down.

[Samdari]

mckerney I have never seen another NFL player give up on routes and have it cost his team interceceptions like Moss. He is not just the most talented WR in the league, but the most physically gifted football player in a long time. If he gave as much effort as an average WR (see Dutch's example of running good routes as a decoy) the other WR's on the Vikes might be productive, Culpepper might be a decent QB, and they might win the occaissional game.

You are wrong about players not playing hard every play. Most have to do so in order to keep their jobs and most do. Yes, Keyshawn Johnson and Hines Ward block hard when sweeps run away from them (how hard is it to block a CB?). Blocking on the back side of the play keeps cutback lanes open, and allows reverses to be run. If a CB sees a WR not block on sweeps all game, and then all of a sudden blocks one play, the CB will know something is up.

Its not like these guys are in constant mostion. There is about 18 minutes of actual time the ball is in play in an NFL game. I have the holy Trifecta of being fat, lazy and out of shape, and I think I could manage 9 minutes of all out effort (Moss only plays one way) over a 3 hour period.

[The Afoci]

I agree Moss doesn't always help his team, but you guys seem to say he is more trouble than help. He has better stats for his first 5 years than any other reciever ever. He can't be taking to many plays off, or else he is so much better than anyone who has ever played the game, and I just don't think that is it.

But still, tell me if you honestly believe that a player will put the same effort in a blow out loss in the 3rd quarter as he would in a tie super bowl game?

[Daimyo]

I think the point is more what he does when he's not generating stats... he may be the best player in the game when the play is called for him, but when its not he hurts the other 10 guys in the field by taking himself out of plays.

Even if you think its okay to not play 100% all the time, you have to agree that the absolute last thing you do is publicize that. No good can from saying you take plays off. Sort of like when Krause said management wins championships and not players... it may or may not be true and you may or may not believe it, but under no circumstances do you ever actually say it.

[The Afoci]

Originally posted by Daimyo
Even if you think its okay to not play 100% all the time, you have to agree that the absolute last thing you do is publicize that. No good can from saying you take plays off.

Definately. That is what I said his biggest problem is, he admits to what nearly everyone else keeps a secret, that they don't go 100% every play, every game.

[AgPete]

As a Cowboys fan, let me say that I just about dropped dead of a freaking heart attack when Dallas almost screwed up and ran out of time last year. Too bad the Vikes were the team that messed up last year and didn't take advantage of it. It's a shame they were involved in another draft day debacle this year. Del Rio did wonders for the Panthers defense last year and if the reports about him scheming to keep the Vikings on the phone are true, that guy is going places in the NFL. He's one smart and savvy cookie.