Have we been invaded?

[clintl]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Cut their source of illegals and you force them to improve conditions and pay. How about trying out a little better logic next time, though that is a major challenge for a liberal so I "feel your pain"?

Or, more likely, they'll sell their farms to developers, and the world's most fertile agricultural region will get paved over at an even faster rate.

This is a complicated matter, and it's not going to be solved by any one course of action. These farmworker jobs have been done primarily by Mexicans since 1942, when the bracero program was started. Part of the answer has to be better, more efficient prevention of illegals entering the country. Part of the answer needs to be better enforcement and more severe penalties against employers who hire illegals. And part of the answer needs to be increased legal immigration to fill the jobs Americans won't do. And I don't think Americans, in the numbers required to support the agricultural industry, will ever be willing to work for the wages farmers are able to pay.

[ISiddiqui]

Ah, now it gets interesting:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/03/...ion/index.html

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Protesters took to the streets again Monday as a GOP-led Senate committee passed sweeping immigration legislation that sets up a contentious showdown with Republicans demanding a harder line.

Controversial provisions in the election-year bill would create a guest-worker program and give illegal immigrants the chance to work toward legal status without first returning home.

Highlighting the divisions within GOP ranks over immigration, four of the committee's 10 Republicans voted in favor of the bill, which passed 12-6 with support from the panel's eight Democrats.

The full Senate begins debating immigration Tuesday, and it is unclear whether the committee's version will have enough support to survive intact. A procedural vote Tuesday may give some indication of its chances.

By a 12-5 margin, the committee accepted an amendment from Sen. Ted Kennedy, a Massachusetts Democrat -- and backed by Arizona Republican Sen. John McCain -- that would create a legalization process.

In order to gain permanent residency, illegal immigrants would have to wait six years, pay $2,000 in fines and any back taxes, undergo a background check and learn English.

"I believe we have a bill which is not justifiably categorized as amnesty," said Specter. He rejected the option of forcing illegal immigrants to return home before working toward legal status as "unrealistic."

The four Republicans on the committee who supported the immigration bill were Specter and Sens. Mike DeWine of Ohio, Sam Brownback of Kansas and Lindsey Graham of South Carolina. Brownback has been mentioned as a potential 2008 presidential candidate.

Sen. John Cornyn of Texas, a border state Republican on the committee who supports a guest-worker program, voted no, saying he will oppose any measure that would offer a legalization process.

I expect to see fireworks in the general Senate.

[SFL Cat]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

One thing I keep hearing is reclaiming California back to Mexico?

Mexico couldn't afford to be saddled with California's debt.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Ah, now it gets interesting:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/03/...ion/index.html

I expect to see fireworks in the general Senate.

Sen. Cornyn needs to realize just which state it is that he is representing. I think he is going to find himself on a lonely island in the Senate on this particular stance. The senior Senator from Texas has already come out and said she supports some kind of legalization process.

It is also suprising his view is a polar opposite of President Bush on this issue, since Bush is a strong supporter of some kind of naturalization program. He is widely regarded as one of Bush's strongest supporters in the Senate.

[Cringer]

This seems like it would be a good thread for this story...

Clinton chauffeur an illegal immigrant
NEWARK, N.J., March 27 (UPI) -- An embarrassing hole in security surrounding former U.S. President Bill Clinton turned up when one of his chauffeurs was found to be a wanted man.

Shahzad Qureshi, 42, was in one of three cars awaiting Clinton at Newark Airport last week when a Port Authority policeman happened to check license plate numbers.

The computer came back showing the Pakistani national had skipped a residency-status hearing in 2000, and a deportation order had been issued by the Immigration and Naturalization Service, the New York Post reported.

Qureshi was still in jail Monday awaiting immigration processing, the report said.

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Or maybe they: "a) they pay below minimum wage and b) they don't adhere to any reasonable workplace standards, such as, oh, working for 18 hours straight without breaks)/" because employers find cheap illegal workers to do it under the table. Cut their source of illegals and you force them to improve conditions and pay. How about trying out a little better logic next time, though that is a major challenge for a liberal so I "feel your pain"?

If history has taught us anything, it is that the first things businesses do when faced with losing money from a failing business model is to raise pay and better the working conditions.

I like illegal workers from a fiscal conservative standpoint: they are cheap labor that can be exploited, yet still be better off than they were before. It's a win/win. They make my vegetables cheaper and keep Telemundo in business, what's not to like?

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

If history has taught us anything, it is that the first things businesses do when faced with losing money from a failing business model is to raise pay and better the working conditions.

I like illegal workers from a fiscal conservative standpoint: they are cheap labor that can be exploited, yet still be better off than they were before. It's a win/win. They make my vegetables cheaper and keep Telemundo in business, what's not to like?

Pssst! And the women are hot.

[Subby]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

How about trying out a little better logic next time, though that is a major challenge for a liberal so I "feel your pain"?

This type of childishness cheapens your solid arguments.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by BrianD

If the problem is poor wages and labor conditions, why not just enforce the labor laws we already have on the books. Building border walls and enacting new legislation to replace existing non-enforced laws seems like a lot of extra effort.

I was going to respond to EagleFan's tripe, but I see BrianD has done it for me. Thanks.

[Galaril]

Up here in Massachusetts alot of people are talking about this legislation that is aimed at getting tough on illegal immigration. We don't have the same issues or circumstances as astate like California but still there are a fair number of immigrants legal and apparently quite afew illegal as well here. I have been listening on the radio to a lot of blue collar business owners like landscaping and construction say they are employing illegal aliens. The reason they are saying is a lot of American kids 18-28 are just not interested in working very hard or getting there hands dirty. This might be partially true. Furthermore, they say that the average american kid will works 8-10 hours when the average Guatemalan will work 14 hours a day on construction job.
Now the way I see this is two ways. First I agree alot of the jobs illegals are taking are jobs many but not all americans are willing to take. The othewrside is that these business owners are getting cheaper labor by hiring illegals and saving on the taxes. And like I already said illegals will work for overtime for straight pay no time and half double time like an average american will expect. So, an american workers is quicker to say hey this guy is going to make $5000 a day for my work ath the clients site and pay me $100 . I think I want 200 dollars. A illegal alien will take the $100 or less! And if the illegal asks for more nine times out of ten the business owner can just say never mind I will get another illegal cheaper who IS willing to work for $100.
So, in the end we are own worst enemies. This simplly is the rule of supply and demand at work here. The real problem I have is that illegal immigrants may work much harder but are still illegal and jack up the taxes on all the legal citizens to pay for the services that this country supplies to all.
Now even though I am a democrat who generally disagrees witht the current presidents new legislation proposals this time I agree with Bush's new recommendations. But also, we should make it possible for more people to come here legally to work and go home after a time. And if they want to try to become a citizen it should be more opportunities to get it.

[Bubba Wheels]

Haven't even touched upon the increasingly 'sense of entitlement' these illegals seem to have about being here in the first place. Used to be legal immigrants came from far and wide to be here and had a great sense of gratitude about it. Now I keep hearing about these illegals just wanting a piece of the 'American dream.' Well, yeah, how about some Mexicans pushing for their own version of it in their homeland and calling it the 'Mexican dream?''

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Haven't even touched upon the increasingly 'sense of entitlement' these illegals seem to have about being here in the first place.

That is my main problem with illegals. See I don't mind them being here at all really. What I do mind is them getting free services such as foodstamps and unemployment. That is why I don't mind this legislation at all.

And I like the idea of a tax/fee on money transfers to Mexico. I read an article yesterday saying that such transactions as this is the second biggest source of outside income for Mexico, next to oil exporting.

[Galaril]

On a side note related to all the protest thta have gone on around the country over the last few days. I hope the INS was smart enough to send some agents over to the demonstartions to check out people. I mean are these protests by who illegals Illegals families who are legally here
Do people realize they are supporting the act of breaking the law.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Cringer

That is my main problem with illegals. See I don't mind them being here at all really. What I do mind is them getting free services such as foodstamps and unemployment. That is why I don't mind this legislation at all.

If the cost of free services to illegals does not outweigh the cost-savings in labor, I don't see where the economic problem is. Intuitively, I would expect the economy to start tanking if consumers were to start seeing hefty increases in the cost of food. I would predict that nothing will be done to curtail the use of illegal immigrant labor, since no elected government will be very willing to risk getting the blame for reducing the voting public's discretionary spending power.

I'm too lazy to look, but has anybody done studies that estimate:

- the costs of services to illegals bourne to taxpayers on a per taxpayer basis?
- the economic cost-savings of the use of illegal labor that is passed on to taxpayers?
- the potential average spending increases for food and services the average taxpayer will have to make, if the use of illegal labor is curtailed?

[flere-imsaho]

I do hate it when one of those bastards cuts off my aging Corolla with their flash new Mercedes.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

If the cost of free services to illegals does not outweigh the cost-savings in labor, I don't see where the economic problem is. Intuitively, I would expect the economy to start tanking if consumers were to start seeing hefty increases in the cost of food. I would predict that nothing will be done to curtail the use of illegal immigrant labor, since no elected government will be very willing to risk getting the blame for reducing the voting public's discretionary spending power.

I'm too lazy to look, but has anybody done studies that estimate:

- the costs of services to illegals bourne to taxpayers on a per taxpayer basis?
- the economic cost-savings of the use of illegal labor that is passed on to taxpayers?
- the potential average spending increases for food and services the average taxpayer will have to make, if the use of illegal labor is curtailed?

Earlier in this thread I posted a link to a cost/benefit analysis study. I don't think it addressed your specific points, though.

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by Cringer

And I like the idea of a tax/fee on money transfers to Mexico. I read an article yesterday saying that such transactions as this is the second biggest source of outside income for Mexico, next to oil exporting.

62% of Mexico's imports come from the United States, so any money sent over there is eventually used to purchase American goods. And yes, the women are hot

[Havok]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

And yes, the women are hot

Not really, i've been to Mexico 4 times and honestly there are ALOT better looking chicks were i live in florida then the mexican women i've seen in Mexico.

Now if you said Brazilian women or Venezuelan chicks were hot, then i'd agree. But overall, as a whole, i'd say Mexican chicks are average at best.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by Havok

Not really, i've been to Mexico 4 times and honestly there are ALOT better looking chicks were i live in florida then the mexican women i've seen in Mexico.

Now if you said Brazilian women or Venezuelan chicks were hot, then i'd agree. But overall, as a whole, i'd say Mexican chicks are average at best.

The hot ones are really hot. The bad ones are pretty disgusting. Doesn't seem to be a ton of middle ground.

[Crim]

Originally Posted by lungs

The hot ones are really hot. The bad ones are pretty disgusting. Doesn't seem to be a ton of middle ground.

Agree wholeheartedly. I feel the same way about Indian women.

And poptarts, too. I mean, blueberry, strawberry, even apple cinnamon are incredible. But smores are nasty, and don't get me started on Hello Kitty Meowberry. Blech!


Crim

[cartman]

Wow, who awoke Crim? He's been on a posting tear today.

[Subby]

He is bordering on copyright infringement.

My lawyers will be in touch.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Chris

He is bordering on copyright infringement.

My lawyers will be in touch.

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

And with that, I award the coveted ThreadJack Black Belt (4th Degree) to Klinglerware.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

And with that, I award the coveted ThreadJack Black Belt (4th Degree) to Klinglerware.

Honor accepted, sensei...