OT: Dodgers sign Rickey, trade for Burnitz

[SackAttack]

Nice to see LA finally making some moves to improve the offense; I just hope they're in time to salvage our playoff hopes.

Dodgers gave up three minor leaguers to get Burnitz. I don't recognize any of the names, which makes me cautiously optimistic about the deal. Could be just a salary dump for the Mets, and Burnitz has had a decent season offensively to boot.

Dodgers gave up:

AA IF Victor Diaz
AA RHP Joselo Diaz
A RHP Kyle Strayhorn

They got Jeromy Burnitz and an undisclosed sum of cash from the Mets.

It's nice to have a replacement in LF for the injured Brian Jordan, but that's not the move I'm most excited about. The Dodgers also signed Rickey Henderson, who was hitting almost .340 with an OPS close to 1.000 for Newark. I'm not expecting numbers close to that in LA, but I'd happily settle for a .250ish BA and a .400 OBP. Anything more than that is purely gravy.

What I'm hoping happens is that Henderson can perhaps help improve the pitch selection and plate discipline of some of LA's younger hitters - Beltre in particular, but also Izturis, Wilkin Ruan, and Chin-Feng Chen, if he stays with the parent club long enough.

Nice to see, at least, that the Dodgers addressed their need for a power bat and perhaps a solid leadoff/#2 hitter without having to give up any pieces of their major-league leading bullpen.

Anybody else have any thoughts on the moves, or any information on the minor leaguers LA gave up?

Josh

[ISiddiqui]

Well they needed to do something... what being 7.5 back of the Giants. Maybe they can make a run with these two?

[GoldenEagle]

I think getting Burnitz is a good move. I do not know anything about the prospects.

To be honest with you thoug, I do not think Ricky Henderson will put up those kind of numbers that your looking at. I like Ricky and admire him and wish him the best, but .250 is wishful thinking in my opinion.

[Axxon]

I'm glad to see Rickey back in the bigs but did it have to be with LA. Ugh! There''s no way I can root for them. Oh well, a jobs a job I guess.

I do have one GREAT Chaves Ravine story though. I was doing an observation flight with the CHP guys one night in LA and it was a pretty boring night so we were mostly sightseeing. At the end of the ride they asked me if there was anything else I'd particularly like to see and I said Dodger Stadium.

The pilot takes us to the stadium and proceeds to set it down on the pitchers mound facing the batters box. We don't actually touch the mound but get darned close. It was extremely cool until a groundskeeper appeared waving a rake. We got out of there fast.

I definately thanked them for a great memory but I still can't root for the Dodgers.

[SackAttack]

ISiddiqui - the Dodgers were 9 back at one point this season, and rallied to get back into first place. They've been very, very streaky, but the Giants have been fairly average since their torrid start, so nothing's totally out of the question. Adding the D'Backs back into the mix and contending with the resurgent Rockies will make things interesting, but 7.5 is by no means an insurmountable deficit.

GoldenEagle - I don't think it's too much to expect Rickey to hit around .250, because his age isn't going to affect his patience or his pitch selection. Even, I think, last season when he hit, what, .220? Even then, his OBP was still close to .400 or so. I'd take .220/.400, if only because that's still 100 points higher in OBP than any of the Dodgers' CURRENT .220 hitters.

Plus, way I see it, dude's got a chip on his shoulder. Dodgers were the only team to offer a contract, and he still thinks he can play at a major league level. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he were sufficiently motivated to hit .250. I'd be SHOCKED if he hit anywhere close to the .340 he was hitting for Newark, but I think a drop of 90-100 points for a guy with Rickey's talent and experience isn't unreasonable.

[Ksyrup]

Burnitz in that cavernous stadium just doesn't seem like a good fit to me. I could see him hitting .210 with 10 HRs in the 2nd half. Although, considering he missed about a month earlier this year, he's put up some pretty good numbers. I just don't think a low-average, K-or-HR type hitter is a good fit for LA.

[SackAttack]

Axxon - as long as you're not a Giants fan, I won't hold it against you.

[ISiddiqui]

the Dodgers were 9 back at one point this season, and rallied to get back into first place. They've been very, very streaky

That is true... but do you think lightening will strike twice? It is hard to rally from 8 back once... even hard to do it twice.

[Axxon]

Nope Braves through and through until I basically quit on baseball. Now that I'm getting a bit of the fever back I'm trying to root for my Devil Rays. I think I can do it; I rooted for the Bucs forever. I'm used to backing a loser.

[SackAttack]

Ksyrup - it isn't that Dodger Stadium is "cavernous," exactly. I mean, you want cavernous, look at Olympic Stadium or Comerica Park.

What makes Dodger Stadium such a great pitcher's park is that the air is very *heavy*. The ball doesn't carry nearly as well as it does in other parks, which is key to why Chan Ho Park and Ismael Valdes did so well in LA, and are doing so horrendously for the Rangers.

Will you ever see a consistent 50-60 HR guy in LA? Doubtful. 40 isn't unreasonable, and Green and Sheffield have both hit that there. What I see from Jeromy Burnitz, though, is a guy who can put up the kind of numbers Brian Jordan does when Jordan is healthy. .275, 30 HR, 100 RBI. Not the kind of stats you want from a guy making $12 million, but still eminently respectable compared to what the rest of the roster is doing this year.

And heck, while I would have liked a Brian Giles, a Rafael Palmeiro, or a Carlos Delgado, the price on any of those three, save maybe Palmeiro, would have been too high to pay, IMO.

[SackAttack]

ISiddiqui - With the Dodgers' pitching? Yeah. Get 'em out of Coors Field, and if the offense even remotely resembles the group we've seen the last 5 days, then 8 games is totally doable.

Heck, they've been 5 out a couple times this year and rallied from those too. The NL West is an incredibly competitive division, and with the schedule loaded with the Giants/D'Backs in September, there's opportunity to make up a LOT of ground.

The key is completely the offense, though. The pitching has to stay healthy, certainly, but the offense has to has to HAS TO generate more than 3 runs a game, or even 4 games would be too much.

Axxon - Hey, I can respect the Braves. At least they're not in our division anymore.

[Axxon]

True.

My hatred for the Dodgers though is even stranger than that. I first got serious about baseball was when I joined an APBA league in 80. Being that I got into the league late and basically wasn't up on the players ( we drafted without seeing the cards and had to pick ten players off our seed team. I landed the 54-108 A's and had guys like Dave Revering as starters ) I ended up with what should be a horrid team.

We weren't though and I had some astonishing young bloomers who panned out in real life. Guys like Rickey Henderson and Robin Yount who are also two of my favorites ever of course. Anyway, my only decent pitcher was Montreal's Steve Rogers. He was my ace and of course I rooted for him IRL.

It was those bastage Dodgers, specifically Rick Monday who robbed him of a chance at the world series by hitting a 9th inning game winning HR of him. I've never forgiven the Dodgers for that, but Gibson's homerun came close.

At least, it's the only time I've ever remembered cheering for the bums.

[SackAttack]

Yeah, but they beat the Yankees in the Series that year. Surely that's cause for forgiveness?

[Axxon]

But George Steinbrenner was one of the patrons of my junior high school and brought the World Series team there to sign autographs and talk to us in a relaxed atmosphere. I can't hate them. This was the Reggie 3 HR in a game team btw. Reggie wasn't a prick to us but I think we may have been too young for that.

Keep it up, you're just digging the hole deeper.

[MrBug708]

The fielder is a 2 time minor league hitting champion

[SackAttack]

Axxon - uhh...uhh....*runs away*

MrBug - how old is he, do you know?

[Axxon]

Better to stick to the Gibson series.

If Rickey has a resurgence and they make the post season I won't go so far as root for them but WILL be happy for Rickey and like maybe, possibly, sorta be ok with them winning it all.

[Swaggs]

Good to see Rickey Henderson back in the bigs, but I think the .400 on base percentage may be a little lofty of a goal, especially in Chavez Ravine.

[SackAttack]

They're not that far out of the postseason, actually. Only, what, 2 or 3 games out of the wild card? It's the damn Giants we're 8 back of, and we've seen a couple instances this year where 8-10 game leads have evaporated in that division.

[Axxon]

Oops, keep forgetting about that new fangled thang called wild card. Never had that in the baseball I'm used to.

[SackAttack]

Swaggs - not necessarily. Rickey had something like .390ish with the Padres with a batting average close to the Mendoza line. If he can still draw walks with any kind of regularity, it wouldn't take much, at least, where Rickey's concerned, in the way of BA to get a .400 OBP.

I mean, I'm not saying if he ONLY gets .370 or .380 that I'll be disappointed. At this point, anything in that ballpark is a shot in the arm. Ideally, I'd like .400. I think he can do that, and the better he hits for LA, the more likely that is, obviously. He's not gonna hit .340 in LA, THAT much is certain. If it were Coors, maybe. Not in LA. .250 is reasonable, .230 may be more realistic, but I see no reason why he can't still draw an OBP around .400 in the majors with his discipline and patience.

[SackAttack]

Axxon - I don't like the wild card, but I've grown used to it, and it's times like these I'm thankful for it.

I wouldn't complain if we went back to a two-division format with only one round of playoffs before the World Series, but I also don't have a problem with four teams from each league making the playoffs, especially after 1991 (and I think Giants' fans from 1993 would agree with me).

[Axxon]

It's comforting to know that even if they go to an NBA almost everybody makes it to the post season format, my Devil Rays will be sitting at home in October.

Uhm, comforting from a purist standpoint I mean.

[SackAttack]

What, are you trying to say the Rays are 'pure' crap?

I think you'd have to let Pinella's hair grow back in first.

[Axxon]

All I have to say is Lance Carter, all star.

I think nothing else need be said.

[SackAttack]

Really? So when are they gonna promote him from AA?

...oh, you meant a ML All-Star.

[Axxon]

Ouch...but not far from the truth I'd say.

[TroyF]

I'm not sure the Dodgers pitching will hold up over the second half. If Brown has a major breakdown, I don't see how they are going to catch the Giants.

An even bigger problem will be the DBacks, who have been on an absolute tear and will have RJ and Curt back to full strength by the end of the month.

I think the Dodgers are in some trouble myself.

TroyF

[SackAttack]

Troy, the Dodgers have BEEN in some trouble all season long. They've had to rely far too much on the pitching even to get this far, which is why I'm glad they've finally made some moves towards the offense.

HOWEVER. I don't think RJ/Curt are going to be the major factors in the 2nd half for Arizona that they might have been a year ago. Part of it is that they're both coming off of injuries, but part of it is also that Curt hasn't been getting the calls when he takes the mound. He's been getting shelled routinely this year (although not as badly as Glavine/Maddux).

I don't think Brown's injury is major, but I do think they're trying to be very, very cautious with it. And that's fine, as long as the rest of the pitching staff holds up its end of the bargain. The bullpen has been excellent, Perez seems to be regaining his form from a year ago, Ishii has quietly been the most consistent starter for the Dodgers in the last few weeks, and Nomo has been a warrior all season long, his last couple starts in Coors notwithstanding.

The question marks are Ashby filling in for Dreifort (who was having a great year in his own right) and Alvarez for Brown, for however long is necessary. If they can pitch six or seven innings and then hand it off to the 'pen, I think we'll be okay.

But if the offense doesn't produce, all the pitching in the world won't get us into the playoffs with the D'Backs finally playing consistent ball, and the Giants doing their thing.

[TroyF]

Sack,

I realize the Dodgers have been in trouble with that offense. I don't have any problems with the moves they made today. I just don't think it will be enough. I think the DBacks with a health RJ and Curt are better than the Dodgers are, even after the trades today.

I do not see this team in the post season IF their pitching holds up. If Brown breaks down, that pitching staff will be worse because of it and they'll lag even further back. They may surpise me, but I don't think they can compete with the other two teams now.

They wasted a HUGE chance to put some distance between themselves and the DBacks while the snakes were struggling. I think it'll come back to bite them.

TroyF

[SackAttack]

Troy,

They DID put some distance between themselves and the D'Backs. The problem is, the D'Backs went on a streak where they won something like 16 out of 18 at the same time as the Dodgers were losing 15 out of 20 because of no friggin' offense.

Toss out the four games when LA gave up a total of 29 runs to the Padres, and here are the rest of the scores during that sucky stretch:

3-6 (L)
2-3 (L)
1-2 (L)
6-0 (W)
0-3 (L)
1-3 (L)
1-3 (L)
3-4 (L)
1-3 (L)
2-0 (W)
1-2 (L)
6-5 (W)
9-4 (W)
6-7 (L, in Coors)
3-5 (L, ditto)
9-3 (W, ditto)

Those're the last 20 games for LA. Well, 16 listed, plus the four crappy games against the Padres that I didn't list. Seven of those losses, the pitching staff gave up three runs or less, and ten of those losses were by three runs or less.

That's an offense issue, largely. As long as the starting pitchers don't get shelled like they did in San Diego, the pitching will hold up its end of the bargain. It's the bats that need to wake up.

Dodgers had something like 10 games on the D'Backs. If that ain't "distance," nothing is. That's what a sucky stretch will do for you.

Looking at Curt Schilling, he's had 11 starts this year. Four times he's given up 4 runs or more. Five times, he's failed to last 7 innings. His ERA at this point is 3.27, and while that's not shabby in today's game, that's not Curt, either. It's taken him his last six starts just to get it to that point from 3.97, which is down from an early season high of around 6.00.

Randy Johnson hasn't been much better. Four starts, 23.1 IP, ERA of 6.94. 30 hits allowed, opponents are hitting over .300 against him, and he was supposedly healthy up until his fourth start against the Mets.

They're getting old, thing is. Even Randy Johnson can't defy his age forever, and it's going to catch up sooner or later. Looks like it's probably sooner. The time off those two have had MIGHT help them in terms of stamina as the season winds up, but the bottom line is, Curt Schilling has been night and day at home and on the road, and Randy has been incredibly mortal.

Healthy might not be enough for those two, if they can't also recapture the form that made them so dominating the last several seasons.

Josh

[Bad-example]

The Giants are 8-4 against the Dodgers this year and finished the first half strong despite a rough patch in the schedule.

The D'backs are getting healthy and have much better balance and momentum than LA.

The Dodgers better make another serious move or two if they want to compete. Indeed, with Ricky and his baggage, they might be worse off with him than without.

Oh yes...GO GIANTS!

[SackAttack]

The Giants started the year 15-2. Since then they're 42-35. In case you're interested, a 42-35 clip over 162 games translates to 88 wins. That's not "finishing the first half strong," that's living off the fat of a 15-2 start.

As for the D'Backs, you're right - they DO have better momentum. That's also largely thanks to the dozen or so rookies who stepped in while the old guys were hurt. They were hungry, they had something to play for.

The old guys when healthy weren't playing very well. You don't think them resuming their starting positions might screw with the chemistry a little bit? Brandon Webb has been huge for their pitching staff in that he gives them their first real solid #3 starter, and Shea Hillenbrand is a definite upgrade at 3B, but I'm not convinced that that'll be enough to get them through. If Schilling and Johnson continue to pitch more like their 2003 performances and less like their 2002 performances, they're going to be a very average ballclub the rest of the season.

I agree that the Dodgers need to remain vigilant for ways to improve the offense - Burnitz and Henderson, while nice additions, aren't enough by themselves unless Beltre and Green come out of their funks. However, I think their pitching staff, as long as it's healthy, will ensure that they're competitive all season. It may not get them in the playoffs without help from the offense, but they'll be in striking distance.

[SackAttack]

Dola - the Giants are indeed 8-4 against LA, but the first three of those wins were 2-1, 3-2, and 5-4. You don't think an improved offense mighta helped LA a little bit, there?

The next two were convincing: 5-1 and 9-3. But the Dodgers followed up with a 16-4 win for their first win of the year against the Giants.

The next six between the two clubs:

4-1 (LA)
8-2 (LA)
2-0 (SF)
3-2 (SF)
2-1 (SF)
6-0 (LA)

That's 10 runs in a six game span for the Giants...and yet they split those six with the Dodgers. Picking up the pattern yet? The Giants are a good ballclub, I'm not even going to argue that, but 29 runs in 12 games is something like a 2.41 ERA for LA's staff if we assume every run the Giants scored was earned. I'd argue that 8-4 record is less 'Giant dominance' and more simple offensive futility from the Dodgers. The fact that they've had trouble scoring runs all year bears that out, I think.

They play each other 7 times in the final 10 days (and the Giants had better hope and pray they have a playoff bid sewn up before the 27th, or they may regret rescheduling the postponed game as a doubleheader on the next-to-last day of the season). I submit that those 7 games will be a more valid indicator of which is truly the better team than the first 12 were, particularly if the Dodger offense shows any signs of life.

[Bad-example]

"The Giants started the year 15-2. Since then they're 42-35. In case you're interested, a 42-35 clip over 162 games translates to 88 wins. That's not "finishing the first half strong," that's living off the fat of a 15-2 start."

Well winning 6 of their last 7 series was finishing strong, including 5 of 6 from the Cards and series wins against Oakland and LA.

"As for the D'Backs, you're right - they DO have better momentum. That's also largely thanks to the dozen or so rookies who stepped in while the old guys were hurt. They were hungry, they had something to play for."

Not like those quality rookies are going to turn to smoke when the veterens return. If the vets struggle...if...then the D'backs certainly have attractive options. Gotta like their depth.

"If Schilling and Johnson continue to pitch more like their 2003 performances and less like their 2002 performances, they're going to be a very average ballclub the rest of the season."

I wouldn't bet against RJ and Schilling having at least solid second halves. To base your postseason hopes on both collapsing seems a bit of a reach to me.

"I agree that the Dodgers need to remain vigilant for ways to improve the offense - Burnitz and Henderson, while nice additions, aren't enough by themselves"

Again, I am not sure that Ricky is such a "nice addition". There is a reason he has been unemployed for so long. It is no stretch to imaging him having a negative influence on the team, both on the field and in the clubhouse.

[Bad-example]

" They play each other 7 times in the final 10 days...I submit that those 7 games will be a more valid indicator of which is truly the better team than the first 12 were, particularly if the Dodger offense shows any signs of life."

Well there is no telling what either club will look like in the fall. Possible trades and injuries might change either or both clubs drastically between now and then.

The Giants are surging and have one of the best GM's in the business. They have been in first all season long. The D'backs are very hot and very deep. They may well be able to make another big trade or two.

Any way you look at it, the Dodgers are a dark horse at this point.

[SackAttack]

Originally posted by Bad-example
Well winning 6 of their last 7 series was finishing strong, including 5 of 6 from the Cards and series wins against Oakland and LA.

That's great, but there were two series' played between SF and LA in roughly a one week span. The series the Giants won, both of their wins were 1 run games. 3-2 and 2-1, if I remember correctly. Again, I'd be willing to bet that's more directly the Dodgers' offensive woes and not the Giants' pitching staff just being dominant, because LA has had those struggles all year.

Not like those quality rookies are going to turn to smoke when the veterens return. If the vets struggle...if...then the D'backs certainly have attractive options. Gotta like their depth.

Okay, and where are you going to play those rookies when the vets come off the DL? You either have to trade the vets (tall order, as most of them are either, well, OLD, or overpaid, or some combination of the two), or cut them outright. They have depth, yes, but with their financial constraints, how are they going to properly integrate the rookies? Brandon Webb will stay, no doubt. But the others?

I wouldn't bet against RJ and Schilling having at least solid second halves. To base your postseason hopes on both collapsing seems a bit of a reach to me.

Collapsing? Johnson is approaching 40, and Schilling has been horrid on the road this season (he says it's related to QuesTec, we'll see I guess). What I'm saying is that when 40% of your rotation (and half your payroll) is that old, things happen. The Dodgers can hold Kevin Brown up as the perfect example of age meeting talent. They're both excellent pitchers, but I just can't see them both turning in the sort of dominant performances they have in years past.

Again, I am not sure that Ricky is such a "nice addition". There is a reason he has been unemployed for so long. It is no stretch to imaging him having a negative influence on the team, both on the field and in the clubhouse.

Odd, the Padres' clubhouse didn't seem to have a problem with him. My guess is management just didn't want to keep an old guy around when there were kids in need of PT. As far as negative influences go, two words: Raul Mondesi. I'd be highly surprised if Rickey is anywhere near as bad as Mondy was during his final days in LA.

On the field, well...dude wants to play. Dude just spent half a season in the minors trying to get back to the bigs. Do you really think he's gonna dog it? My bet is, some of LA's kids will be able to learn a thing or two about mental approach and professionalism. If we're really lucky, they'll learn something about patience and pitch selection too.

[SackAttack]

[quote]Originally posted by Bad-example
Well there is no telling what either club will look like in the fall. Possible trades and injuries might change either or both clubs drastically between now and then.

Very true.

The Giants are surging and have one of the best GM's in the business. They have been in first all season long. The D'backs are very hot and very deep. They may well be able to make another big trade or two.

Not without moving some payroll is my guess. Not unless the other side picks up the tab. Hillenbrand is dirt cheap, and that's probably the one reason Arizona was able to make that deal. Do you have any idea just how loaded down they are in the back end with what they owe Johnson and Schilling? That franchise is going to be a mess financially in three years, mark my words.

Any way you look at it, the Dodgers are a dark horse at this point.

They're two games behind the Diamondbacks, and the Rockies are a game behind LA. I'd say the entire damn division, San Diego notwithstanding, kinda qualifies as a "dark horse" right now.

The Giants haven't proven that they can hold onto large leads in the standings this year. They've surrendered at least one 9 game lead, a few 5-6 game leads, and as you point out, Arizona is surging. They're 6 back right now, but how long will that last? The Dodgers' team ERA is a half-run lower than any other club in the majors, and as I pointed out in an earlier post, their bane this season has been one run losses, mostly due to a lack of offense.

Will Burnitz and Henderson magically reverse things? Maybe. Likely not, but they'll help. Evans has said for weeks that the rest of the lineup has to step up, and he's right. If Green starts hitting and Henderson and Burnitz contribute the way I think they can, LA will absolutely be in the mix for a playoff spot, and would be damned deadly if they got that far. Assuming Brown isn't seriously broken, would YOU want to face Brown, Nomo, and Perez in a short series?

[Bad-example]

"That's great, but there were two series' played between SF and LA in roughly a one week span. The series the Giants won, both of their wins were 1 run games. 3-2 and 2-1, if I remember correctly. Again, I'd be willing to bet that's more directly the Dodgers' offensive woes and not the Giants' pitching staff just being dominant, because LA has had those struggles all year."

So the real point is that the Giants are a better balanced club and that has translated to an 8-4 head-to-head advantage and the 4th best record in baseball? I agree.

"Okay, and where are you going to play those rookies when the vets come off the DL? You either have to trade the vets (tall order, as most of them are either, well, OLD, or overpaid, or some combination of the two), or cut them outright. They have depth, yes, but with their financial constraints, how are they going to properly integrate the rookies? Brandon Webb will stay, no doubt. But the others?"

Gee, you make it sound like all the D'backs veterans are going to stink the place up. A return to health is a good thing. They will find room to keep the rookies they need.

"They're both excellent pitchers, but I just can't see them both turning in the sort of dominant performances they have in years past."

And again, I wouldn't bet against both of them having solid second halves. You said it yourself, they are both excellent.

"Odd, the Padres' clubhouse didn't seem to have a problem with him. My guess is management just didn't want to keep an old guy around when there were kids in need of PT. As far as negative influences go, two words: Raul Mondesi. I'd be highly surprised if Rickey is anywhere near as bad as Mondy was during his final days in LA.

On the field, well...dude wants to play. Dude just spent half a season in the minors trying to get back to the bigs. Do you really think he's gonna dog it? My bet is, some of LA's kids will be able to learn a thing or two about mental approach and professionalism. If we're really lucky, they'll learn something about patience and pitch selection too."

"Dude" was so impressive with the Padres that he was ignored by all MLB teams until the Dodgers signed him. "Dude" is very possibly unable to produce at the major league level still. If he struggles, he might end up teaching those youngsters about selfishness and pride and how to disrupt a clubhouse.

As far as Mondesi is concerned, I agree...he was the consummate Dodger

"Do you have any idea just how loaded down they are in the back end with what they owe Johnson and Schilling? That franchise is going to be a mess financially in three years, mark my words."

Agreed that they are in financial trouble in the near future. But they are clearly a contender this season and that is the point, eh? There are teams out there like the Mets and Orioles that are willing to accept contracts in the right deal. By no means is Arizona completely out of trade talks for the year.

"Will Burnitz and Henderson magically reverse things? Maybe. Likely not, but they'll help."

Signing Ricky was a desperation move that might pan out and might...more likely IMO...backfire. And Burnitz is a strikeout machine moving to a pitcher's park.

[SackAttack]

Originally posted by Bad-example
"That's great, but there were two series' played between SF and LA in roughly a one week span. The series the Giants won, both of their wins were 1 run games. 3-2 and 2-1, if I remember correctly. Again, I'd be willing to bet that's more directly the Dodgers' offensive woes and not the Giants' pitching staff just being dominant, because LA has had those struggles all year."

So the real point is that the Giants are a better balanced club and that has translated to an 8-4 head-to-head advantage and the 4th best record in baseball? I agree.

I'll thank you not to put words in my mouth. My point, as you well know, isn't that the Giants have 'a more balanced club,' but rather that the Dodgers simply haven't been up to par offensively this season. If Green were playing remotely like the Green of a season ago, I think you'd be seeing a much different story in the win column.

"Okay, and where are you going to play those rookies when the vets come off the DL? You either have to trade the vets (tall order, as most of them are either, well, OLD, or overpaid, or some combination of the two), or cut them outright. They have depth, yes, but with their financial constraints, how are they going to properly integrate the rookies? Brandon Webb will stay, no doubt. But the others?"

Gee, you make it sound like all the D'backs veterans are going to stink the place up. A return to health is a good thing. They will find room to keep the rookies they need.

Not all of them will, but let's face reality here. It takes a special kind of player to be able to keep putting up big numbers as he gets older. Luis Gonzalez is great, but he's no Barry Bonds. At some point, he's going to drop off. Johnson and Schilling I've already gone over in detail, and they've already shown signs of mortality this year. A return to health is great, but health and big numbers don't always go hand-in-hand, especially once you're pushing 40.

"They're both excellent pitchers, but I just can't see them both turning in the sort of dominant performances they have in years past."

And again, I wouldn't bet against both of them having solid second halves. You said it yourself, they are both excellent.

And it's just as possible that they'll continue to struggle or that they'll continue to have injury problems. Look at Kevin Brown, for Pete's sake. Until 3 years ago, he'd never had a stay on the DL, and now he can't seem to stay OFF the DL. That day is coming for both Schilling and Johnson, and it may already be here.

"Dude" was so impressive with the Padres that he was ignored by all MLB teams until the Dodgers signed him. "Dude" is very possibly unable to produce at the major league level still. If he struggles, he might end up teaching those youngsters about selfishness and pride and how to disrupt a clubhouse.

As far as Mondesi is concerned, I agree...he was the consummate Dodger

I'm getting a lecture on selfishness and pride from the man whose favorite team is epitomized by Barry "I don't have to play in the Home Run Derby, and you can't make me!" Bonds?

ANYWAY. As I've stated, I'm not expecting him to be Shannon Stewart at the plate. What I AM expecting is that he continue to draw walks, that he continue to disrupt pitchers on the basepaths, and that he maybe, just maybe, show the rest of the team how to lay off crappy pitches. For the major league minimum, that's not too much to ask, and he's still capable of doing that.

Agreed that they are in financial trouble in the near future. But they are clearly a contender this season and that is the point, eh? There are teams out there like the Mets and Orioles that are willing to accept contracts in the right deal. By no means is Arizona completely out of trade talks for the year.

Sorry, I know those teams have some wiggle room contract wise, but I just don't see how they're going to have Arizona's bad contracts foisted off on them - the D'Backs would either have to include some of their upper level prospects to make the deal more palatable or...you know, I don't know if there IS another way they can dump their veterans on a team not in contention without giving up their young talent. Why would the Mets add to their problems by taking on a bad contract in exchange for, say, a lousy minor leaguer? That's just not a win-win situation for the D'Backs.

Signing Ricky was a desperation move that might pan out and might...more likely IMO...backfire. And Burnitz is a strikeout machine moving to a pitcher's park.

Desperation move? Call it what you like. I think the Rickey signing will ultimately be beneficial for the Dodgers. As for Burnitz, well...there's a reason I'm not as excited about the trade for him as I am the Rickey signing, but offensively, he's basically Brian Jordan, albeit with more strikeouts. At this point, any offense is helpful.

[Fat Football Playr]

Burnitz will not do anything for LA at home.. like already said he is simply a power hitter and it's going to bite him in the ass playing in that park.

Henderson was doing very well in the minors, so we'll see what he can contribute to the Dodgers now. .230 with a buncha walks.

[Bad-example]

"I'll thank you not to put words in my mouth. My point, as you well know, isn't that the Giants have 'a more balanced club,' but rather that the Dodgers simply haven't been up to par offensively this season. If Green were playing remotely like the Green of a season ago, I think you'd be seeing a much different story in the win column.

We actually agree here. The Dodgers are pitching-rich and light on offense, a poorly balanced club, and that is why they are in 3rd place.

" And it's just as possible that they'll continue to struggle or that they'll continue to have injury problems. Look at Kevin Brown, for Pete's sake. Until 3 years ago, he'd never had a stay on the DL, and now he can't seem to stay OFF the DL. That day is coming for both Schilling and Johnson, and it may already be here."

Just because Kevin Brown has proven to be fragile in his later years does not mean that Schilling and Johnson are similarly fragile. It is pure speculation on both our parts to predict how they will pitch in the second half. Personally I seriously doubt that both are going to implode. IMO both are much more likely to have solid if unspectacular second-half numbers.

" Sorry, I know those teams have some wiggle room contract wise, but I just don't see how they're going to have Arizona's bad contracts foisted off on them - the D'Backs would either have to include some of their upper level prospects to make the deal more palatable or...you know, I don't know if there IS another way they can dump their veterans on a team not in contention without giving up their young talent."

The D'backs are surely aware that their window is closing rapidly. Is it so hard to believe they will include a top prospect or two in a trade to go for it all one last time? The Mets or Rangers or Orioles might take on a financial burden in the right deal. My point is that Arizona might yet make another move or two. It is certainly possible, agreed?

" I'm getting a lecture on selfishness and pride from the man whose favorite team is epitomized by Barry "I don't have to play in the Home Run Derby, and you can't make me!" Bonds?"

Slamming Bond's for skipping the HR Derby? Considering how meaningless it is, I am glad he skipped it. I would bet that his manager, GM, teammates and most of his fans would prefer he save his bullets for games that count.

I am not lecturing, of course. Just pointing out that Ricky has a history of being a huge jackass when he is not happy. Think he will be happy if he struggles and finds himself riding the bench for long stretches?

[MrBug708]

Slamming Bond's for skipping the HR Derby? Considering how meaningless it is, I am glad he skipped it. I would bet that his manager, GM, teammates and most of his fans would prefer he save his bullets for games that count.

So, Barry doesnt take batting practice either? Since the pitches are probably coming at about the same speed and I doubt Barry tries hitting opposite field in BP anymore

[MrBug708]

Dola

I am not lecturing, of course. Just pointing out that Ricky has a history of being a huge jackass when he is not happy. Think he will be happy if he struggles and finds himself riding the bench for long stretches?

When Jason Romano and Daryl Ward are playing more then him? I hardly doubt it

[SackAttack]

Originally posted by Bad-example
We actually agree here. The Dodgers are pitching-rich and light on offense, a poorly balanced club, and that is why they are in 3rd place.

You're not catching the distinction I'm drawing, though, which is one of talent versus production. The Dodgers have shown that they CAN score runs. 16-4 ring a bell?

Thing is, all season long, it's been a matter of CAN versus DO. They CAN...but DO they? Not frequently, and that's why they've been so streaky. If the offense finds the consistency on a regular basis that they've had in the last week, they'll be just fine.

Just because Kevin Brown has proven to be fragile in his later years does not mean that Schilling and Johnson are similarly fragile. It is pure speculation on both our parts to predict how they will pitch in the second half. Personally I seriously doubt that both are going to implode. IMO both are much more likely to have solid if unspectacular second-half numbers.

Perhaps. But the thing is that Brown's struggles with injuries are hardly unique to himself. Why do you think there was such skepticism when he signed a 7 year contract, even though up to that point he had never been on the DL for an arm-related issue?

People get old, they become less durable than they once were, and they break down. Hell, Randy Johnson had a history of back trouble BEFORE he ever signed with the Diamondbacks. I'd be less than surprised if his career over the next few seasons resembled Brown - excellent pitcher when healthy, but...can he stay healthy?

The D'backs are surely aware that their window is closing rapidly. Is it so hard to believe they will include a top prospect or two in a trade to go for it all one last time? The Mets or Rangers or Orioles might take on a financial burden in the right deal. My point is that Arizona might yet make another move or two. It is certainly possible, agreed?

And in so doing, they sacrifice a financially stable future. If you trade the young talent that will help ease your payroll burden over the next few years, and you start to run guys out there who have no business being there because you've traded the guys who could have at least kept you around .500, then you start to resemble the Devil Rays...and when that happens, that franchise is going to go in the tank financially. I just can't see them sacrificing their literal future for the sake of now.

Slamming Bond's for skipping the HR Derby? Considering how meaningless it is, I am glad he skipped it. I would bet that his manager, GM, teammates and most of his fans would prefer he save his bullets for games that count.

Meaningless? Perhaps. I'm not making an issue out of him skipping the HR Derby. I'm making an issue out of how he approached it: "I'm a grown man and I don't want to play and you can't make me!" That is a whiny, selfish, spoiled brat if I ever saw one. He could have said "My father's health isn't what it once was, and I'd prefer to spend that time with him rather than participate," and I'd have had absolutely no problem with that.

He approached it from totally the wrong perspective, and for you to excuse that is simply an example of the double standard that you're holding Rickey to. You want to call him selfish? Fine. Just so long as you take a long, hard look at your own Giants and realize that Bonds is no poster child for willing self-sacrifice either. Nor, for that matter, was Jeff Kent before he left.

[quoteI am not lecturing, of course. Just pointing out that Ricky has a history of being a huge jackass when he is not happy. Think he will be happy if he struggles and finds himself riding the bench for long stretches? [/quote]

How many players with a history of starting do YOU know would be peaches and cream about it? It's a mentality. People get used to starting, they expect to start even when they struggle. Bench 'em, they get unhappy. The difference between Rickey and 80% of the rest of the players who might fall into that camp is that he's not afraid to say something about it.

Josh

[ISiddiqui]

"I'm a grown man and I don't want to play and you can't make me!" That is a whiny, selfish, spoiled brat if I ever saw one.

No, that's just a man who is tired about all these idiots wondering why he isn't playing in a Home Run hitting contest of all things!!

[MrBug708]

I guess since baseball has given him this chance to be a great player, why return the favor huh?

Oh, I could live without Barry

[ISiddiqui]

It's a HOME RUN HITTING CONTEST!

It ain't the All Star Game itself. He returns the favor by playing in the game, not some silly, dumb contest before it.

[Bad-example]

" You're not catching the distinction I'm drawing, though, which is one of talent versus production. The Dodgers have shown that they CAN score runs. 16-4 ring a bell?

Thing is, all season long, it's been a matter of CAN versus DO. They CAN...but DO they? Not frequently, and that's why they've been so streaky. If the offense finds the consistency on a regular basis that they've had in the last week, they'll be just fine."

You are saying that because the Dodgers scored 16 runs one day indicates they are underachievers? I submit that any team is capable of scoring 16 runs on the right day. Even the Dodgers

I know you WANT Beltre, McGriff, Green etc. to put up better second half numbers and believe they are capable of doing so, but I think most people would agree LA desperately needs another big bat or two.

" Perhaps. But the thing is that Brown's struggles with injuries are hardly unique to himself. Why do you think there was such skepticism when he signed a 7 year contract, even though up to that point he had never been on the DL for an arm-related issue?

People get old, they become less durable than they once were, and they break down. Hell, Randy Johnson had a history of back trouble BEFORE he ever signed with the Diamondbacks. I'd be less than surprised if his career over the next few seasons resembled Brown - excellent pitcher when healthy, but...can he stay healthy?"

Again, it is pure speculation to predict what these guys will do the rest of this year and in the future. Considering how dominant they have been in recent years, it seems pretty reasonable to me to expect at least solid numbers from them. I could see both of them being effective even at less-than-perfect health.

" And in so doing, they sacrifice a financially stable future. If you trade the young talent that will help ease your payroll burden over the next few years, and you start to run guys out there who have no business being there because you've traded the guys who could have at least kept you around .500, then you start to resemble the Devil Rays...and when that happens, that franchise is going to go in the tank financially. I just can't see them sacrificing their literal future for the sake of now."

Ok, you win...the D'backs are guaranteed not to make any more trades this year.

" Meaningless? Perhaps. I'm not making an issue out of him skipping the HR Derby. I'm making an issue out of how he approached it: "I'm a grown man and I don't want to play and you can't make me!" That is a whiny, selfish, spoiled brat if I ever saw one. He could have said "My father's health isn't what it once was, and I'd prefer to spend that time with him rather than participate," and I'd have had absolutely no problem with that.

He approached it from totally the wrong perspective, and for you to excuse that is simply an example of the double standard that you're holding Rickey to. You want to call him selfish? Fine. Just so long as you take a long, hard look at your own Giants and realize that Bonds is no poster child for willing self-sacrifice either. Nor, for that matter, was Jeff Kent before he left."

Barry is a true professional that always plays. Ricky is more of an "Operation Shutdown" kind of guy. If he isn't happy, he is a huge ass that can drag a team down.

" How many players with a history of starting do YOU know would be peaches and cream about it? It's a mentality. People get used to starting, they expect to start even when they struggle. Bench 'em, they get unhappy. The difference between Rickey and 80% of the rest of the players who might fall into that camp is that he's not afraid to say something about it."

Many, many players would accept a bench role at age 44. Andres Galaragga is a good example. Marquis Grissom took a bench role with LA just last year after many years of starting...indeed, he has shown this year that he is still capable of starting. Did Grissom turn into a dick last year because he wasn't a full time starter?

[SackAttack]

Originally posted by Bad-example
Did Grissom turn into a dick last year because he wasn't a full time starter?

Horrible example. Grissom left LA in the first place because he felt that he was still capable of being a full-time player, and wasn't happy with the number of at-bats he was getting in LA. He did, in fact, go to the media with his unhappiness on more than one occasion.

I don't get the SF newspapers, so I don't know if his behavior improved any up north, but yeah, Grissom was a dick about PT when he was in LA.