Paul Kariya knocked out.

[dickysty]

Guess who?

Scott Stevens, big surprise.
Doesn't look good for Kariya.

[yacovfb]

He's back. Good thing for him and the Ducks because he was out cold.

-yacovfb

[yacovfb]

...and he's got a goal. this was huge

[MrBug708]

That was quite the goal too

[tucker342]

That goal was awesome

[Tekneek]

Hah. This is the kind of thing that could propel the Ducks to a Game 7 victory. I love to see that kind of thing happen. I know Scott Stevens makes 'clean hits' but I also think he does try to hurt people intentionally. You don't have to be breaking the rules to be trying to cause injuries.

[tucker342]

I loved seeing Kariya shove it straight up Stevens's ass with that goal, it was so great

[rexallllsc]

That hit was borderline dirty...

[Pumpy Tudors]

There wasn't anything dirty about the hit, in my opinion. Kariya was watching his pass. If you've been in the NHL for 10 years and don't know that Scott Stevens is patrolling the middle (especially when he's been following you for 90% of your even-strength shifts through SIX STRAIGHT GAMES), you deserve what's coming to you.

Maybe Stevens does hit in order to hurt people. It's hockey, people. Ray Lewis hits to hurt people. Michael Strahan hits to hurt "precious" quarterbacks. That's their job. Scott Stevens has a job, too, and he took the opportunity that Paul Kariya handed to him on a platinum platter.

For anyone who may argue that it's the other team's captain or that it's a superstar or that it's just the heart and soul of an underdog team, that would be a load of bull. It wouldn't matter if Stevens crushed Kariya or Jason Krog. If you're watching the puck when you KNOW that Scott Stevens could be two feet away, you're opening the door to punishment.

As a human being, I'm glad that Kariya got up and continued to play. As a Devils fan, I'm glad he took his punishment like a man, and maybe he'll learn from it.

[Tekneek]

Maybe he will learn from it? He put the puck in the net, and had his best game of the series. Sounds like he DID learn something from it.

[Chief Rum]

Maybe Kariya will learn from it? Spoken like a true Devils' fan. How about, maybe Stevens will learn from it? Kariya used that hit to motivate himself into shoving a stick right up Stevens' ass with that beautiful goal, and if that amazing comeback results in the Ducks coming out on Monday all inspired and that wins them the Cup, don't you think Stevens might have second thoughts about having opened that particular door?

BTW, rexallsc, I think you're wrong. That was a legal hit, and most of what Pumpy Tudors said is right on. Not only do I and Pumpy think so, but also the league office, and last night on ESPN, Barry Melrose and Ray Ferrarro, boith of whomw ould know a diry hit if they saw one.

I will say this about Pumpy Tudors' comments--I don't think he knows the difference between tackling to tackle or hitting to hit, and tackling to hurt or hitting to hurt. He used Strahan and Lewis as examples, for instance, but as far as I know, I don't think they intentionally try to hurt people with their tackles, at least no more than any other guy who does a lot of tackling for a living. I do think Stevens tries to hurt players--I think it's part and parcel with his mindset when he's on the ice. He's a win at all costs kinda guy, since giving opposing teams power plays and keeping himself on the ice is a good thing for his team, he keeps it legal when he does his hitting. But that doesn't mean that he doesn't look for specific chances when he can really pop someone, or that he doesn't go out of his way to put most of his crushing force on an opponent's head. I truly believe he does this, and that he's a piece of shit for doing it (even if he's just a wonderful, wonderful defensive hockey player).

Kariya does have to accept some responsibility for allowing himself to be put into that situation, and I agree that if a hit is coming, he deserves to take that hit. But I don't think he deserves to be the focus of a guy who doesn't want to just hit him, but hurt him, too.

FWIW, since Kariya had three points last night, Stevens, his chosen "guard" on the Devils, didn't do all that good a job of stopping him, did he? I am hoping that the big badass Stevens gets some more comeuppance on Monday night, although to most of the rest of the Devils' crew I hold no ill will and am looking forward to what I hope will be an exciting Game 7 for all the marbles.

Chief Rum

[ISiddiqui]

Maybe Kariya will learn from it? Spoken like a true Devils' fan. How about, maybe Stevens will learn from it? Kariya used that hit to motivate himself into shoving a stick right up Stevens' ass with that beautiful goal, and if that amazing comeback results in the Ducks coming out on Monday all inspired and that wins them the Cup, don't you think Stevens might have second thoughts about having opened that particular door?

Maybe I should say spoken like a true Ducks fan? I mean, really... Kariya should learn from that not to look at the pass when Stevens is in the area. Does he really want to look like Lindros that one time when Stevens popped him? So, yeah, maybe Kariya will learn something from it. He didn't 'learn' anything from that hit by scoring... that's silly. The only way he'll learn from the hit is if he keeps aware of where Stevens is when he makes a pass and doesn't let himself get drilled again.

Really, if some defensemen got faked out of his jock and someone scored, does that defensemen learn his lesson by doing the same thing to the guy that did it to him?! NO! He learns his lesson by not getting faked out again!

Stevens does that kind of stuff to get his own team fired up. Usually it works, this time it didn't. He doesn't have to learn anything from this. If something works 9 times out of 10, you don't stop it because the 1 time it didn't!!

[Chief Rum]

Even if the one time, it could cost you the Cup?

My point is, if Stevens put on a regular hit instead of one of his classic head-crushing hits, maybe Kariya goes down and learns his lesson, but he's not knocked out, he doesn't leave the ice and he doesn't feel particular motivation to shove it up Stevens' ass with his play, and his resulting return and play doesn't result in the whole Ducks' team being inspired to finish out that one and perhaps carry it over to Monday's critical game.

I agree almost all the time, Stevens' play will work the way he intended. But I am pointing out that with that hit and the subsequent resulting theatrics, not only did Stevens lose his team any chance at a comeback in Game 6 (and finishing things out there), but it might have delitorious effects on Monday's game, too.

And not that Stevens in all his size and glory will need to worry about it, but while he's out there headhunting for Kariya on Monday, he might want to keep an eye out for his own head--because I am pretty sure that Ruslan Salei and Vitaly Vishnevsky and Mike LeClerc and Rob Niedermayer will be exploiting every chance they get to return the favor.

Chief Rum

[ISiddiqui]

I agree almost all the time, Stevens' play will work the way he intended.

So why not try it when your team is getting blown out? If Kariya hadn't come back, maybe the Devils would have had a good chance at coming back. After he was knocked out the Ducks played with less emotion and the crowd was kinda quiet. Only when Kariya came back did the Ducks play with the same emotion they did in the beginning of the game.

And if Kariya (and the Ducks) needed a bonecrushing hit to get motivated for Game 6 of the Stanley Cup Finals, with his team a game from elimination, he's (and they are) in the wrong sport.

But it didn't happen that way... I thought the Ducks were plenty motivated in the 1st period, didn't you?

[rexallllsc]

Originally posted by Pumpy Tudors
There wasn't anything dirty about the hit, in my opinion. Kariya was watching his pass. If you've been in the NHL for 10 years and don't know that Scott Stevens is patrolling the middle (especially when he's been following you for 90% of your even-strength shifts through SIX STRAIGHT GAMES), you deserve what's coming to you.

The hit wsa 1.5 seconds after Kariya let go of the puck...go watch it @ NHL.com.

It was late/dirty. EOS.

[Chief Rum]

They were, but a lot of that was being in front of a raucous home crowd. That motivation wouldn't carry over to Game 7 in New Jersey. Motivation fueled by the Stevens hit and Kariya's comeback, though, is the kind of stuff that motivates loing after the game ends. That one can carry over to Monday (and probably will).

Yes, as I said, Stevens' decision to go for the "hurt-hit" will work most of the team from the standpoiint of what he's trying to do for his team's chances of winning, but just like you get lauded for when it works, you should deservingly take it like a manwhen it backfires as badly as it did yesterday. I think Stevens could have found a way to inspire his teammates without knocking someone out, so I'm criticizing his decision to do that.

Also, if the Devils need someone on the other team to be physically knocked out of the game to inspire them in Game 6 of the Stanley Cup Finals...well, then, I guess the Devils are in the wrong sport, too, aren't they?

Chief rum

[rexallllsc]

deleted. revised stance.

[ice4277]

Scott Stevens is one of a very few people in the NHL of whom i can say, without qualification, that I would want on my team. It was a trademark Stevens play, borderline but I didn't see much wrong with it; Kariya did good to come back from the hit and score, but I think you guys are trying to read too much into the situation. Also, its about time that Kariya showed up and did something in these finals.

[ISiddiqui]

Also, if the Devils need someone on the other team to be physically knocked out of the game to inspire them in Game 6 of the Stanley Cup Finals

They weren't in danger of being eliminated . Some teams don't tend to go for the jugular when they have the other team up against elimination. The Devils showed this in the series with Ottawa. They didn't start playing with emotion again until their backs were also up the wall.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally posted by Chief Rum
I will say this about Pumpy Tudors' comments--I don't think he knows the difference between tackling to tackle or hitting to hit, and tackling to hurt or hitting to hurt. He used Strahan and Lewis as examples, for instance, but as far as I know, I don't think they intentionally try to hurt people with their tackles, at least no more than any other guy who does a lot of tackling for a living.

Honestly, I only used Strahan as an example because his focus is on quarterbacks, which is essentially the same type of role that Kariya plays for the Ducks.

That said, do you truly think that Ray Lewis doesn't want to hurt people? I would think that most NFL linebackers want to "put the hurt" on somebody. Scott Stevens plays with a linebacker mentality. There's nothing wrong with that. We can all guess about whether Stevens wanted to hurt Kariya or not. The point is that Kariya put himself in a position to get hurt around a guy who has a reputation for hitting hard.

It was Paul Kariya who made the mistake, and that's why I say that he should learn something from it. I'm not saying that I want the man to get hurt, but if he's asking for punishment from the most dangerous man on the ice, I'm not going to pretend like the hit shouldn't have happened.

[RPI-Fan]

Devils fans on the whole, I've found (I'm an Isles fan), are complete assholes when it comes to talking about hockey.

The person who said the Devils people should admit that Stevens screwed up, just as they'd be celebrating him as the cause of victory if the Ducks had folded, is dead on. I have a friend who's a Devils fan who couldn't stop talking about 'how dirty' McLaren's hit on Zednik was, and then when I asked him about some of Stevens, he said those were 'inspiring'.

Was McLaren's hit, right in the flow of play, in the defensive zone, in a key game and time justified? He, of course, said no. When I asked him about Stevens' hit on the Carolina player with seconds left in the game (O'Neill?), it was 'gutsy'.

WTF. And on all the boards I read, this is the same general attitude that Devs fans seem to have.

Step off it.

[tucker342]

What do you expect, it's Jersey!


Actually I don't mind New Jersey at all(I've only been to one city, but that was nice(Hoboken(sp?))). But, it's still fun to make fun of the state

[Tekneek]

Originally posted by ISiddiqui
And if Kariya (and the Ducks) needed a bonecrushing hit to get motivated for Game 6 of the Stanley Cup Finals, with his team a game from elimination, he's (and they are) in the wrong sport.

What? On one hand people are saying the Devils needed Stevens to crush Kariya to get motivated to win the Cup, but then criticize the Ducks for being motivated by the same play. Which one is ok and which one is not?

[ISiddiqui]

I already said... the Ducks were in danger of being eliminated in that game, the Devils were not. Therefore, the Ducks should have had more emotion. If it was Game 7, it'd be a different story, but it wasn't. Lose and your out and you can't get motivated is totally different from Lose and you get one more chance!

[Tekneek]

Whatever. You carry too much bias on this topic, obviously.

[ISiddiqui]

Because a team up 3-2 usually has (or should have) the same emotion as a team down 3-2 and facing elimination? Come on! When you face elimination and have a chance, you fight like a cornered animal!

[Samdari]

The Ducks went up 3-0 before that hit, and led 3-1 at the time of the hit. The Devils never equalled the 3 goals the Ducks had at the time of the hit. How exactly did the Ducks need that hit to get fired up?

The Ducks played with more intensity from the time the puck dropped in that game. Only a myopic devils fan could see it otherwise.

[ISiddiqui]

How exactly did the Ducks need that hit to get fired up?

I dunno... ask Chief Rum... he's the one that said it did:

My point is, if Stevens put on a regular hit instead of one of his classic head-crushing hits, maybe Kariya goes down and learns his lesson, but he's not knocked out, he doesn't leave the ice and he doesn't feel particular motivation to shove it up Stevens' ass with his play, and his resulting return and play doesn't result in the whole Ducks' team being inspired to finish out that one and perhaps carry it over to Monday's critical game.

I said that if a hit required the Ducks to be inspired then they are in the wrong sport. I never said they needed the hit to get fired up, but Chief Rum obviously believed they did. I guess he's a myopic Devils fan now?

All I said is that IF the Ducks needed that hit to get 'inspired' then they are in the wrong sport... because they were facing elimination. Basically I'm saying Chief Rum is wrong on how 'bad' the Stevens hit was (he says it riled up the Ducks... shouldn't they be riled up already?).

[Chief Rum]

I was referring to motivation above and beyond the normal motivations of being in such a game. Before, the Ducks were motivated by being at home and, of course, being in such a Cup game. They were up 3-1 at the time, but the Devils weren't out of it yet. This was the kind of play inspired for Game 6, but which would only carry over somewhat to Game 7. Stevens' hit changed everything, though. Now, not only are the Ducks fired up by the usual motivations of such a game, but they can replace the now lost motivation of playing in front of the home crowd with a natural hatred for the Devils, especially Stevens. These Ducks would have been a lot easier to handle tonight, I think, without that extra motivation. And so I question the intelligence of Stevens putting on that hit. He not only assured his team of not coming back in Game 6, but who knows what it might cost them in Game 7--and possibly the Cup.

And what are you talking about? Since you're so good at quoting me, why don't you point out the post where I say the Ducks need to come back from a hit like that for motivation? I have said it added to their motivation, as it plainly did, but I have never said they needed it. HELL, THEY WERE UP 3-1 AT THE TIME OF THE HIT!
Yeah, you're right, Isiddiqui (or whatever)--they REALLLY needed that extra motivation!

And being up or down 3-2, IMO, is not good enough. There's a difference, but the same general motivation--to win the Cup--is still there. The Devils, as such, shouldn't need motivation either. So I say again, if the Devils are all that, why do they need someone on the other team to get physically hurt to motivate them?

You claim the Ducks are in the wrong sport for their motivational needs, but, damn, it sure looks like your own team isn't exactly a beacon of reference for ya on that one, are they?

I can't speak for other Devils' fans. They seem to be pretty much straight up on these issues. But you, sir, as you have been described, are so hopelessly myopic it is almost painful to read your posts.

Still, good luck tonight. And hopefully the good guys will win.

Chief Rum

[Chief Rum]

Originally posted by ISiddiqui
All I said is that IF the Ducks needed that hit to get 'inspired' then they are in the wrong sport... because they were facing elimination. Basically I'm saying Chief Rum is wrong on how 'bad' the Stevens hit was (he says it riled up the Ducks... shouldn't they be riled up already?).

Nice, added this while I was typing out my post.

Bad to who? The Ducks? Or the Devils? How can you defend a player trying to hurt someone? How can you defend a player who not only took his team out of Game 6 for sure, but maybe might cost them the Cup inGame 7? IMO, that means the hit is pretty damn bad. And if the Ducks win tonight (you better pray they don't), he's going to become the goat of the whole series.

As for riling up the Ducks, if you think motivation is a limited commodity (that it can't be added to, even in Stanley Cup games), then you have never played in any competitive sports. Stop trying to make the Ducks out like I thought they were running on empty when the hit occurred. I'll say again, they ere up 3-1! Obviously, motivation is not the problem is it?

The Ducks didn't get riled up by the hit. They got MORE riled up by the hit. Know the difference.

I still think it's pathetic that apparently a team needs someone to be physically hurt to get their team motivated. But then, maybe that's Issidiqui's Jersey.

Chief Rum

[ISiddiqui]

Now, not only are the Ducks fired up by the usual motivations of such a game, but they can replace the now lost motivation of playing in front of the home crowd with a natural hatred for the Devils, especially Stevens. These Ducks would have been a lot easier to handle tonight, I think, without that extra motivation.

You really think that 'hate' is going to make that much of a difference in Game 7 of a Stanley Cup Final? Come on! Really?! You got to be kidding me! So without that 'hate' they'd be less motivated to win? That's just silly!

Since you're so good at quoting me, why don't you point out the post where I say the Ducks need to come back from a hit like that for motivation?

play doesn't result in the whole Ducks' team being inspired to finish out that one

That sure sounds like they 'needed' that hit.

And being up or down 3-2, IMO, is not good enough. There's a difference, but the same general motivation--to win the Cup--is still there. The Devils, as such, shouldn't need motivation either.

The general motivation to win and get the Cup is less than lose and your out for the season. That's not hard to notice.

And hopefully the good guys will win.

If you are represenative of Ducks fans, then obviously it won't be your team.

"Hate" indeed

[ISiddiqui]

How can you defend a player trying to hurt someone?

You've obviously never supported an NFL team, I can plainly see. Either that, or you hated their defensive players (especially linebackers and defensive linemen). The guy that pointed out Ray Lewis is especially right. They try to HURT players. Why do you think they want the big hit?! They could just tackle the player, but they want to punish him! They'd love to hurt him. Tampa players wanted to hurt Michael Vick, it was evident in everything they said before and after the games against him.

And if the Ducks win tonight (you better pray they don't), he's going to become the goat of the whole series.

Um... don't think so. Not at all.

As for riling up the Ducks, if you think motivation is a limited commodity (that it can't be added to, even in Stanley Cup games), then you have never played in any competitive sports.

I played soccer for 10 years, and I can tell you that if you are really motivated, hate isn't going do jack... except hurt you in the end.

[Chief Rum]

OMG, I didn't understand half that post. Could you expand on your thoughts on the second one. I didn't even understand the quote you put up for me, much less what it had to do with my response on that one.

My point is that there are different levels of motivation. The Ducks ARE motivated. I never thought otherise. Accept it and move on.

But, yes, motivation can be added to. And if you don't think hate for your opponent can be a fuel for even further drawing from within to perform than you clearly are so out of touch with competition and athletics that the rest of this discussion is pointless.

Chief Rum

[ISiddiqui]

But, yes, motivation can be added to. And if you don't think hate for your opponent can be a fuel for even further drawing from within to perform than you clearly are so out of touch with competition and athletics that the rest of this discussion is pointless.

Hate for your opponent is usually a detriment. If you are highly motivated then you don't need hate, and it won't ADD anything! Hate will make you go after the other person and hurt him instead of really doing what you are supposed to do. Hate for your opponent really doesn't add much when you are in this position. It'll simply bring you down.

[Chief Rum]

Ah, screw this. You're hopeless. And you're sick.

Tackling is part of the job in the NFL. You root for the tackle to be clean and the player to go down, stopping forward progress of the ball. You DON'T root for the ballcarrier ot have a busted knee or a concussion or any other serious injury.

The fact you don't know the difference between plain tackling and hoping for players to be hurt tells me a lot about your moral code. I guess it's okay for someone to get hurt, even seriosuly, so long as the teams that Issidiqui root for win, huh? You make me sick.

BTW, diehard Rams fan for all my life, until they ripped my heart from my chest and stomped on it on their way to friggin' St. Louis. A passionate follower of college athletics, as well, partiularly UCLA. And I have also rooted strongly for the Cowboys ever since they drafted Troy Aikman from UCLA. And I am a passionate fan of football besides, enjoying the fatc that since I live in a town with no pro football, I can at least watch all the best games. I am well aware of pro football, so that one doesn't quite stick.

Those NFL players who actively try to hurt people are sick as well. And if that includes the whole Tampa Bay defense, then they are in the same position. If it does indeed include Ray Lewis, than that is wrong as well, although the only thing I hav heard bad about him has to do witht he murder fiasco. Beyond that, everyone, IMO, likes to paint him as the uber-bad guy ont he field, because of one incident off of it.I'm not saying Lewis is a saint, mind you (far from it), but it seems to me that a lot of the vitriol that is heaped upon him is motivated entirely by their impression of him from that incident, and not anything he does or says on the field.

Well, I can tell you from having played high school sports and years of compeittive sports in pre-high school that hating your opponent can help you elevate your game, if you utilize it right. It cuts both ways. Hate can hurt and hate can help. It depends on how you use it. You must not hvae been really into your sports if you don't know that.

Chief Rum

[Chief Rum]

Originally posted by ISiddiqui
Hate for your opponent is usually a detriment. If you are highly motivated then you don't need hate, and it won't ADD anything! Hate will make you go after the other person and hurt him instead of really doing what you are supposed to do. Hate for your opponent really doesn't add much when you are in this position. It'll simply bring you down.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then. Hate, when rightly fueled into elevating your game, can become a reason for victory. Once again, if you aren't aware of the positive effects as well as the negative effetcs of such antagonism on the field, then you're fooling yourself.

BTW, were you going to get back to me on explaining how the Ducks had no motivation withg a 3-1 lead? Where I supposedly said thewy needed it to win that game? Last I checked the only thing I have said about that is that extra motivation carried over from Game 6 to Game 7 by the Ducks isn't going to advance the Devils' chances of winning, will it?

Chief Rum

[ISiddiqui]

Tackling is part of the job in the NFL. You root for the tackle to be clean and the player to go down, stopping forward progress of the ball. You DON'T root for the ballcarrier ot have a busted knee or a concussion or any other serious injury.

You might not, but the players on the field are thinking it. I mean, name the last time that a defensive lineman or linebacker, with a clear shot to the QB, just tackled him normally. Most of the time, you'll find a defender with a clear shot to the QB, will POP him. They'll drill him and pound him into the dirt. Why? They want to hurt him. That's why. Every defense in the NFL won't give up the chance to do that when they have a clear shot at the QB.

BTW, were you going to get back to me on explaining how the Ducks had no motivation withg a 3-1 lead? Where I supposedly said thewy needed it to win that game?

You said that hit resulted in the Ducks team being inspired to close out the game. That seems like you are saying they need that motivation.

Hate, when rightly fueled into elevating your game, can become a reason for victory.

Only when you aren't at the peak of your motivation for other reasons. I don't believe that motivation keeps going up and up and up and up. There is an upper limit, and when you are there, hate doesn't add jack.

[TroyF]

I thought the Stevens hit was unnecessary and wrong. You can use the "it's part of the game defense" if you like. I understand it is a part of the game. It happens to be a part of the game I hate.

You would use the same defense if Karyia had lost hit helmut on the hit and went into a series of seizures that ended his life, right?

There is a difference between a clean hit and intentionally trying to injure someone. I think Stevens does the latter and dislike it. I also disliked Sapp leaving his feet and drilling a helpless OL 25 yards away from the play.

The defenders will always use the same excuses. "He should have been looking out for him" "it's the way the game is played" "everybody does it" I find them all to be shallow excuses myself. In Sapp's case, he didn't have to leave his feet to make the block. In Stevens case, "I" believe he's a headhunter who intentionally tries to injure other players. I find it sick and disgusting.

As for your football analogy, some of us can seperate our love of a team and our hatred of an individual player. I couldn't stand Romanowski when he was a Bronco. Sure, he helped us win games, but that doesn't mean I liked him or cheered for him. (In fact, when I break out the old video tapes and rewatch the Super Bowls, I make sure I fast forward through his interviews after the games) I'd just as soon he never came to Denver and took his tired act someplace else. Thankfully, last year he did just that.

I don't want to see Stevens in an Avalanche uniform, EVER. He's one great player I can live without. He comes to us at some point, I grit my teeth and deal with it. I'll hope that particular era ends quickly.

TroyF