Gender ambiguous names and correspondence.

[Fritz]

A situation has arisen where I have to correspond with a person in another office that I have not met in person, not talked with on the phone. In their initial email to me, they closed with their name and job title, but did not preface their name with a Mr, Mrs, or Ms. The problem is they have one of those names you can't be sure about in terms of gender.

So my reply, which should have been somewhat formal, instead greets them by their first name only.

I don't know what the point of this is, other than to say that you folks with an androgynous name owe it to the rest of the world to give some hint about your gender in correspondence..

[Honolulu_Blue]

I ran into this situation before, but under slightly more stressful circumstances. During my last year of college I worked for a sporting goods store. Three times while I was working the shoe "department" I had totally androgenous looking people come into the store and ask to look at shoes (running, walking, what have you). The shoe "wall" as it was, was divided into two sections, mens on the left, women's on the right. It was very hard. I ended up just walking right in the middle, spreading my arms wide and saying "We have many different types of shoes here. What exactly are you looking for?" They would then go to the left or right.

For the record, two were women, one was a man.

[Fritz]

That is a good solution, but I don;t think there is a similar thing I can do via correspondence.

as an aside, how do you know how stressful my situation is?

[andy m]

phone up their office and ask to speak to them, and when they answer the phone you will learn the answer, and then you can tell them that you have a wrong number. or ask them on a date. or whatever.

[corbes]

Originally Posted by andy m

phone up their office and ask to speak to them, and when they answer the phone you will learn the answer, and then you can tell them that you have a wrong number. or ask them on a date. or whatever.

sometimes that doesn't provide the answer, either.

[CamEdwards]

is there anyone else in the office who might know the person, Fritz?

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by andy m

phone up their office and ask to speak to them, and when they answer the phone you will learn the answer, and then you can tell them that you have a wrong number. or ask them on a date. or whatever.

I was going to suggest the same thing. In situations like this i'll usually call up the office and find out. Sometimes it's even best when you get an assistant - you can flat out ask whether it's a man or woman.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Fritz

That is a good solution, but I don;t think there is a similar thing I can do via correspondence.

as an aside, how do you know how stressful my situation is?

I had to try and make a split second decision. I couldn't sit and ponder, ask for input from people on a internet computer football bulletin board, couldn't, perhaps, use the internet to search for information on this person. I basically had all of 3 seconds in which to make the call. Hence, more stressful.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Fritz

That is a good solution, but I don;t think there is a similar thing I can do via correspondence.

as an aside, how do you know how stressful my situation is?

Maybe you could use their fullname. It's a bit clumsy, but it's safe and formal enough I reckon.

For example:

Dear Pat McDermott,

I am writing to tell you how stressful this all is, especially considering the fact that while I write this I have a trout in my rectum. BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, Skydog has a big ole butt, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH

Best Regards,

Fritz,

P.S. Oink oink, baby

[cthomer5000]

Maybe Fritz doesn't own a phone, and his life depends on correctly guessing whether it's a man or woman. In that case, he may have a more stressful situation.

[Maple Leafs]

A friend had a similar situation, phoned the office, and got someone who's voice provided no clue. I think there are people out there who just enjoy causing confusing. The eventually just guessed. Correctly, as it turns out.

(On a mostly unrelated noted, but on the subject of people with androgynous names and voices, I had a friend who was stunned last year to find out that Tracy Chapman was female. She'd heard the songs, seen the videos, interviews, etc. Just went through life assuming Tracy Chapman was male.)

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

Maybe Fritz doesn't own a phone, and his life depends on correctly guessing whether it's a man or woman. In that case, he may have a more stressful situation.

Well, perhaps my life depended on it too... Perhaps if I had guessed wrong the person would have been so incensed they would have reported it to my manager who would have been forced to fire me and then I died on the spot because of the shame...

[Fritz]

Originally Posted by andy m

phone up their office and ask to speak to them, and when they answer the phone you will learn the answer, and then you can tell them that you have a wrong number. or ask them on a date. or whatever.

"Your expected wait time is ... .... 3 hours and 45 min."

so, fuck no.

[samifan24]

Well let's try to think of some ambiguous names in these situations (considering you know nothing about the person)

Pat
Chris
Jamie
Kelly

I'm sure there are others...Any one of these is the kiss of death in one of these situations, I'm sure. I know Chris wouldn't seem like a very ambiguous name, but if you suspect the person may be female and there name also happens to be Chris, you're doomed!

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Fritz

"Your expected wait time is ... .... 3 hours and 45 min."

so, fuck no.

I would guess from that the person is actually a computer.

[Fritz]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

I would guess from that the person is actually a computer.

the line you have to call through is a computer. I assume if you wait the 3 hrs and 45 min (all long distance) there is an overworked person on the other end.

[Kevin]

It's worse in Canada where most correspondence from federal government officials is signed with just the first initial and last name. I don't care about their gender, I just hate the impersonal feel of it. If you can't sign your full name to a document, why should the reader feel obligated to respond?

[Draft Dodger]

I worked with a "Jay" once, but no one was ever sure exactly what Jay's gender was...

[clintl]

I think what you did was fine, Fritz. I doubt that the other person is going to be bothered at all by being addressed by his or her first name.

[Fritz]

My point is, if you have an ambiguous name, you would be doing the rest of us a favor by placing something in front of it. At least if you want to be addressed politely.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Fritz

My point is, if you have an ambiguous name, you would be doing the rest of us a favor by placing something in front of it. At least if you want to be addressed politely.

Agreed.

[clintl]

Well, yes, but perhaps that person doesn't want to be addressed so formally, and intentionally doesn't put something in front of it.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by samifan24

Well let's try to think of some ambiguous names in these situations (considering you know nothing about the person)

Pat
Chris
Jamie
Kelly

I'm sure there are others...Any one of these is the kiss of death in one of these situations, I'm sure. I know Chris wouldn't seem like a very ambiguous name, but if you suspect the person may be female and there name also happens to be Chris, you're doomed!

With Chris, I think only the female needs to affirmatively indicate her gender - at least with that spelling. It seems to me that "Chris" is a default male name. "Kris", on the other hand, is default female name, so Kris Brown (the kicker) should indicate "Mr. Kris Brown" if he doesn't want to be automatically assumed to be female.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Fritz

My point is, if you have an ambiguous name, you would be doing the rest of us a favor by placing something in front of it. At least if you want to be addressed politely.

Or by including a middle name.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Fritz

the line you have to call through is a computer. I assume if you wait the 3 hrs and 45 min (all long distance) there is an overworked person on the other end.

It was a joke.

[revrew]

I run into this all the time. I correspond regularly with people I don't know, and there are just way too many Pats and Drews and Chrises out there. My standard approach is to do what Honolulu Blue suggested -- Dear Pat McOwens:

[JeeberD]

I'm sure this person has had to deal with the problem before and wouldn't be overly offended if you guessed incorrectly. And if in the reply they correct you on thier gender, big freakin deal. It's their fault for not making it clear in the first place...

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

With Chris, I think only the female needs to affirmatively indicate her gender - at least with that spelling. It seems to me that "Chris" is a default male name. "Kris", on the other hand, is default female name, so Kris Brown (the kicker) should indicate "Mr. Kris Brown" if he doesn't want to be automatically assumed to be female.

I've seen instances both ways to contradict this.

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by samifan24

Well let's try to think of some ambiguous names in these situations (considering you know nothing about the person)

Pat
Chris
Jamie
Kelly

I'm sure there are others...Any one of these is the kiss of death in one of these situations, I'm sure. I know Chris wouldn't seem like a very ambiguous name, but if you suspect the person may be female and there name also happens to be Chris, you're doomed!

Chris can be tricky i agree. I have a dispatcher named Chris, and assumed it was a guy for my first year or so (most contact is over our in-truck qualcom satellite units). When i finally talked to Chris on the phone i found out it was a woman....never even considered it.

My daughters name is Quinn, i guess that fits. It's short for Quintana, which i'm sure wouldn't help some people in trying to figure out if she is a she or not. And my wife is Loren, which i know is sometimes a guy name......odd, looks like this is starting to run in the family.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by revrew

I run into this all the time. I correspond regularly with people I don't know, and there are just way too many Pats and Drews and Chrises out there. My standard approach is to do what Honolulu Blue suggested -- Dear Pat McOwens:

I've done this as well. It looks a bit awkward, but it works and is more formal than just Dear Pat.

I've also pulled the cold call to the office before.

[CamEdwards]

I had a female caller named Henry once.. my producer didn't let me know it was a woman.

She actually got pissed when I said "Henry, my man, what's on your mind?"

[Desnudo]

You can use their job title, like Dear VP Johnson, or Re: the reason for this letter.

[SackAttack]

Supposedly parents are doing this to their daughters more frequently. Something about having a less overtly feminine name is supposed to make it easier for them in the business world down the road, in getting job interviews and the like.

I think it's retarded, but...

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

Supposedly parents are doing this to their daughters more frequently. Something about having a less overtly feminine name is supposed to make it easier for them in the business world down the road, in getting job interviews and the like.

I think it's retarded, but...

i dunno, we just liked the name Quintana, and Quinn for short.

[SackAttack]

Sorry, I wasn't pointing fingers at anybody in this thread specifically. I was just commenting on a wider trend.

[TLK]

http://www.bookblog.net/gender/genie.html

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Well, perhaps my life depended on it too... Perhaps if I had guessed wrong the person would have been so incensed they would have reported it to my manager who would have been forced to fire me and then I died on the spot because of the shame...

Or maybe the customer would have been so incensed that they would have instantly performed a Mortal Kombat-esque finishing move to kill you. Then they'd take your head, with spine still attached, and put it on a pike in their front lawn with a sign "Just Say No to Gender Ambiguity".

SI

[Anthony]

Terry can go either way.

[BigJohn&TheLions]

Come on, where's your sense of adventure! Put "Miss" and be done with it. You'll find out if you were right soon enough.

In another thought: it is difficult to determine the gender of trout...

[Bonegavel]

Originally Posted by Fritz

My point is, if you have an ambiguous name, you would be doing the rest of us a favor by placing something in front of it. At least if you want to be addressed politely.

Trust me, they are so used to people getting it wrong that you will just be another schmoe in a world of schmoes. They will curse under their breath, should you get it wrong, but it will quickly slip into the sea of Mr's that should have been Mrs. or Ms. A slight huff, maybe a sigh. They may actually stop what they are doing for a minute and bring up the old hatred they had for their parents for naming them thusly. "Damn you MOTHER!!!! Damn you!!!" is all a passerby will hear as they go off in search of the most distant bathroom so they can foul up somebody elses little section of hell.

Way to go Fritz. Way to go.

[edit]
Oh, forgot to add the answer

Address them as "Splunge"

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

Terry can go either way.

and probably does

[korme]

You aren't by chance a Terry, are you DD?

[lurker]

It's funny that almost everybody has assumed that the situation only arises with familiar names that are adrogynous. It also happens if you have a name that no one has ever heard of because it's not American, which I have. I'm used to people getting it wrong, and it's no big deal. Plus, I wouldn't be able to include Ms. in my signature, since my office has an official signature format for e-mails that doesn't include titles.

Why not just do Mr./Ms. followed by the last name? If they get offended, they suck anyway, and this way you find out about it right away.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by samifan24

Well let's try to think of some ambiguous names in these situations (considering you know nothing about the person)

Pat
Chris
Jamie
Kelly

I'm sure there are others...Any one of these is the kiss of death in one of these situations, I'm sure. I know Chris wouldn't seem like a very ambiguous name, but if you suspect the person may be female and there name also happens to be Chris, you're doomed!

Some more I could think of off the top of my head:

Kim
Adrian
Leslie
Alex (i've known several female Alex's - all hot)
Iman
Danny (Dani)
Kerry (Carrie, Kerri, Carri, Carry, Imahippieskid, however you spell it)

-Anxiety