Allright soccer geniuses!

[MizzouRah]

I help coach U12 girls soccer (10 vs 10) and the main "coach" has always used a 4-2-3 setup and although we've won 2 games, we've lost 3 games to teams who I don't think are any better than we are (in fact, one team I know we have much more talent than)

Anyhow, I've been telling him that we need to switch to a 3-3-3 because at this age, these girls still only play the middle of the field and as soon as a good ballhandler gets going down the field on a sprint - the 4 fowards are in the dust and that leaves us with basically the 3 defenders as the two mid-fielders stay on their sides.

I'm no soccer genius by any stretch, but I have been an assistant for quite some time and this year I'm with a new coach who told me he's been doing this for awhile.

Well, he's agreed for the next game to let me run a 3-3-3 and I was wondering if any soccer guru's could let me know if I'm doing the right thing or not. I also like how easy it is to sub with this setup.

Appreciate any help, comments, or thoughts.

Thanks!

[DaddyTorgo]

playing 10 per side?? interesting

hmmm...

depending on the girls I might even say play 4-4-1 (back to front). That's if they don't pass well...you figure the one girl up front will just get it and run ahead, and odds are unless they are very disciplined at least two of the midfielders will press forward to be there as targets for passes.

if they are disciplined and coachable though, perhaps a 4-3-2 ??

I think you will want to have 4 in the back, just because a 3-person backline tends to require a strong central defender who won't make many mistakes, as well as effective tracking-back by the midfielders to break up plays, both things which are far from given at that age. 4 in the back gives you a little additional security, and has the advantage of decreasing the amount of space each girl has to cover.

3 in the midfield should be sufficient at this age, as midfield play tends to be a lot of "run onto the ball and kick it upfield" at this age, with the caveat that if you have a "star" player you might actually want to play her as more of a DMC and play a 3-1-3-2 (back to front) in order to give her some added ability to hold onto the ball and start the offense, give her more of a free role there while telling her she needs to make sure to get back on defense...

but that's just me...and I hate conceding goals

[MizzouRah]

Thanks DT! Quite interesting... the team we play next has 2 great players and the rest are there to fill the team.. lol

back to front, our coach likes the 3-2-4, but I like the 3-3-3 because it's good for scoring and for defense.. but I do like the idea of a 4-3-2 to go against a high scoring team. Now you have me thinking!

[Pumpy Tudors]

I say to play a 7-1-1 and dare the opposing offense to get through it.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

Thanks DT! Quite interesting... the team we play next has 2 great players and the rest are there to fill the team.. lol

back to front, our coach likes the 3-2-4, but I like the 3-3-3 because it's good for scoring and for defense.. but I do like the idea of a 4-3-2 to go against a high scoring team. Now you have me thinking!

it all depends on your players. I used to assistant coach with my dad for my sister's team when I was younger, and we had a team of STRONG defenders and GK's that I personally coached. With that team I felt like we could get away with a 3-girl backline, because everyone knew what had to be done and we had MC's who would track back.

If you don't have at least central midfielders who will track back though, you have to think that your 3 poor defenders will either bunch in the middle and leave the wings exposed, or else be spread so wide that your one poor girl in the middle will be overrun frequently by the opponent's talented offensive players, which is why I believe you want to provide additional support on the backline.

fact of the matter is that at that age they won't have a problem flowing forward to get into the attack given a scoring opportunity (wing midfielders pinching in, one MC sliding up to support), so I believe in trying to make sure they are all focused on playing defense first and foremost.

[MizzouRah]

I like it, either a 4-3-2 or a 4-2-3 would be great, I think.

This team we are playing next have 2 strong players, that's it. We have 3 good players I could put at midfield who could support defense as well as the two forwards on a scoring attack.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

I say to play a 7-1-1 and dare the opposing offense to get through it.

[Critch]

If the next team has two great players and a lot of fillers, you should just have your players kick the great players til they cry and go home. Plenty of flying elbows and off the ball hairpulling too, if required.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by Critch

Plenty of flying elbows and off the ball hairpulling too, if required.

This reminds me of a movie I saw on Skinemax the other night...

[Fighter of Foo]

You want 5 players focused on defense, however you organize it. Either 4 in the back with 1 DMid of 3 in the back with 2. The latter has worked best for me since I've given up trying to teach a 10-12 year old fullback when to get forward and support.

We play 3-2-3-2 (11 players obviously). The 2 DMids are the best non-scorers and effectively sit in what's normally a massive open space between where the ball is and where the defenders wander up to. Their job is to dump the ball back in and break up the play. It's really easy to coach too. One usually will get forward and support when the ball is on their side, but the other has to stay tucked in. We work on passing the ball back to them in tight spaces to dump/cross back in.

You should be successful with that sort of setup and won't concede many with that setup until the kids are old enough to kick the ball a reasonable distance. The defensive midfielders are key for the reasons DT highlighted above.

[rowech]

I have to say 4-3-2.

[BigDPW]

I would say 3-4-2... With the two central players playing back a little in midfield and the wide players pushing up a little.
-----G-----
-D---D---D-
---M---M---
M---------M
----F--F---- This would require to solid passers and players at the two back Midfield positions.

(or)

-----G-----
-D---D---D-
---M---M---
M---------M
----F------- Best offensive player here to allow her to work in space.
-------F----

Or a diamond in the mid field.

-----G-----
-D---D---D-
-----M----- Best all around player here
M---------M
-----M----- Best offensive player here
--F-----F---


What formations do most other teams play? Basically I would make sure you have 3 defenders back with help from at least one midfielder and then try to out number them in midfield while getting some wide players out in space up front.

[Marc Vaughan]

If your team are fairly weak generally then defend largely in reasonable numbers (4 at the back makes sense to me).

Depending on the general style of play either have the 'fittest' of your defenders act as the 'presser' (ie. they play just in front of the other defenders and their job is to press the player with the ball before they reach the defensive line - with poor players this often means they'll do a panic pass and allow an interception or knock it past the presser to run onto in which case its the job of the other defenders to latch onto theh ball).

If this isn't suitable and the team are disciplined enough to cover each other then the same idea should be attempted on a zonal approach - ie. player closest to the ball player presses somewhat, other players tuck in to cover where they leave the hole.

At the amateur level (and indeed in the lower professional levels) defending is mainly about organisation imho and so long as they're drilled and organised skill levels don't really matter too much.

(from the diagrams done by BigDPW the last one is roughly what I've suggested for the 'presser' defense initially)

The second one involves the following setup roughly ..

-----G-----
-D-D---D-D-
-----------
M---M---M
-----------
--F-----F---

To be honest thought while in 'theory' this sounds good a lot depends on the team you have available and will come down to your knowledge of them, for instance are they fit enough to press the opponents reliably? - how good are they at making chances at the other end? etc. ...

Finally what are the hopes and dreams of the team as a whole - do they take this seriously or are they just in it for fun? .... if they're just in it for a laugh then keep things as simple as possible and try not to stress when you drop points now and again, so long as they enjoy themselves thats the main thing.

[Icy]

Your current 3-2-4 is a suicide imho, you need to defended before attacking and with a 3-2-4, you have too much people attacking and not enough defending. I would play also a 4-3-2 as MarcV explained. More defense, more ball control in the middle and 2 fast attackers in front to counter-attack.

Btw Marc, what are you waiting for to coach a team now that you live in USA? I guess you have huge soccer knowledge compared with the average American and it could be a fun experience (and it could make a good dynasty btw).

[sterlingice]

In grade school, we used to play a 3-3-1-2-1. It worked nicely, particularly if you have players who aren't really used to defined roles- it makes the tactics easier on players. Basically, 3 forwards and 3 mids but then roughly a diamond on defense. Basically, there was what our coach called a "stopper" who was essentially a defensive midfielder who could be aggressive and help on the attack, getting up past midfield when the ball was in the other team's offensive zone- he was first to attack a ball coming up the middle. Then there were two wing defenders behind him to either help out if beat, cover advancing wings without the ball, or isolate ball carriers who were coming up the side. Lastly, there was a "sweeper" who was the last line of defense, usually the strongest defender, as a last resort who cleaned up what wasn't already taken care of.

That way there's a definite role for each, rather than "clump near the ball". It takes a little getting used to the aggressiveness levels of each of the respective defenders but it allows for a lot more flexibility and better tactics than just "you cover this area". It allows that stopper to help out on the midfield (needs tons of stamina) but leaves help back behind if he is over aggressive.

To apply this to your team, I'd just think 2-3-1-2-1 just get rid of the extra forward. Then again, a lot of the tactics so far have addressed how to stop goals and if you don't have any attackers worth much, you may need 3 strikers up front. In which case, you'd run a 3rd forward and only 2 midfielders, with the stopper playing back and front as a 3rd defensive midfielder.

----Sw----
--D----D--
----St-----
-----------
-M--M--M-
-----------
--F--F--F--

SI

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Icy

Btw Marc, what are you waiting for to coach a team now that you live in USA? I guess you have huge soccer knowledge compared with the average American and it could be a fun experience (and it could make a good dynasty btw).

If the time is right and an opportunity arises then I'd seriously consider coaching a team at any level - When I was in England I was seriously considering trying to take my coaching badges, however if its at a 'kids' level then I have to admit I'd try and cater the role to the kids involved (ie. it wouldn't just be about 'winning' in the same way it generally is with an adult side).

At the moment though I'm just trying to locate an adult side for me to play with - I've heard about one in a church somewhere around Rockledge so its just a matter of tracking them down and inflicting myself upon them*

*Bear in mind I'm 36 and while the brain knows what the legs should be doing the communications between the two aren't as fast as they used to be

[JonInMiddleGA]

Interesting to see how much of this conversation I could follow based on FM experience (and some mental translations to basketball defensive strategy/styles).

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

If your team are fairly weak generally then defend largely in reasonable numbers (4 at the back makes sense to me).

Depending on the general style of play either have the 'fittest' of your defenders act as the 'presser' (ie. they play just in front of the other defenders and their job is to press the player with the ball before they reach the defensive line - with poor players this often means they'll do a panic pass and allow an interception or knock it past the presser to run onto in which case its the job of the other defenders to latch onto theh ball).

If this isn't suitable and the team are disciplined enough to cover each other then the same idea should be attempted on a zonal approach - ie. player closest to the ball player presses somewhat, other players tuck in to cover where they leave the hole.

At the amateur level (and indeed in the lower professional levels) defending is mainly about organisation imho and so long as they're drilled and organised skill levels don't really matter too much.

(from the diagrams done by BigDPW the last one is roughly what I've suggested for the 'presser' defense initially)

The second one involves the following setup roughly ..

-----G-----
-D-D---D-D-
-----------
M---M---M
-----------
--F-----F---

To be honest thought while in 'theory' this sounds good a lot depends on the team you have available and will come down to your knowledge of them, for instance are they fit enough to press the opponents reliably? - how good are they at making chances at the other end? etc. ...

Finally what are the hopes and dreams of the team as a whole - do they take this seriously or are they just in it for fun? .... if they're just in it for a laugh then keep things as simple as possible and try not to stress when you drop points now and again, so long as they enjoy themselves thats the main thing.

First of all, thanks to EVERYONE, FOFC does it again.

I fell so "professional" now, a 4-3-2 is what I am going with this Sunday and I would agree that a 3-2-4 has been killing us this year. With my job, it's too hard to be the main coach.. but next year, I'm doing this. I knew I had enough training by those who knew the game, I've just always been the "helper".

Anyhow.. our team has about 3 really strong kickers, 2 speedy players (my daughter is one of them) and a bunch of "normal" kids.. with few players who have never played before, BUT are VERY coachable. This should work out great and tonight at practice, they were really happy about it.

We play the 5-0 team who has 2 girls that can REALLY play and then there is the rest of the team. (probably 4 girls total that can play) One of the girls is the coaches daughter and she also plays select - she scored 4 goals on us last time... BUT she just made some moves and went down the field.. we were running a 3-2-4 and once she got past the forwards, it was all over. This time with a 4-3-2, she will HAVE to use her team mates and that's what we want.

I'll post thoughts and the score on Sunday after the game.

Wish us luck!

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

First of all, thanks to EVERYONE, FOFC does it again.

I fell so "professional" now, a 4-3-2 is what I am going with this Sunday and I would agree that a 3-2-4 has been killing us this year. With my job, it's too hard to be the main coach.. but next year, I'm doing this. I knew I had enough training by those who knew the game, I've just always been the "helper".

Anyhow.. our team has about 3 really strong kickers, 2 speedy players (my daughter is one of them) and a bunch of "normal" kids.. with few players who have never played before, BUT are VERY coachable. This should work out great and tonight at practice, they were really happy about it.

We play the 5-0 team who has 2 girls that can REALLY play and then there is the rest of the team. (probably 4 girls total that can play) One of the girls is the coaches daughter and she also plays select - she scored 4 goals on us last time... BUT she just made some moves and went down the field.. we were running a 3-2-4 and once she got past the forwards, it was all over. This time with a 4-3-2, she will HAVE to use her team mates and that's what we want.

I'll post thoughts and the score on Sunday after the game.

Wish us luck!

2 big kickers in the back middle, one in the centre midfield...speed up front as the forwards?

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

2 big kickers in the back middle, one in the centre midfield...speed up front as the forwards?

I was thinking our two big kickers as forwards (one is not fast, the other is)

Put my daughter and two other decent speed, but big kickers at MF - the rest at D.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

I was thinking our two big kickers as forwards (one is not fast, the other is)

Put my daughter and two other decent speed, but big kickers at MF - the rest at D.

why not put the not-fast big-kicker on d? that way if she gets her foot on it she can hoof it up and the speedy big kicker can run onto it and have a go at goal.

You want to have at least one strong kid on defense, preferably in the centre. They will tend to gravitate towards the ball likely and be the main source of clearing the ball out...

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

why not put the not-fast big-kicker on d? that way if she gets her foot on it she can hoof it up and the speedy big kicker can run onto it and have a go at goal.

You want to have at least one strong kid on defense, preferably in the centre. They will tend to gravitate towards the ball likely and be the main source of clearing the ball out...

Sorry, we actually have 3 big kickers.. but I understand what you mean.

[Marc Vaughan]

How big a pitch do you play on (I'm guessing its no where near full-size but how big is it? - does it have the option for the ball to go out of play or is it an indoor pitch with walls?) .... all this will factor into the best way to play imho.

(also does off-side come into the picture or is that something which isn't played at all?)

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

How big a pitch do you play on (I'm guessing its no where near full-size but how big is it? - does it have the option for the ball to go out of play or is it an indoor pitch with walls?) .... all this will factor into the best way to play imho.

(also does off-side come into the picture or is that something which isn't played at all?)

It's outdoor with out of bounds. Yes, there is offsides. In fact, that's the toughest thing to teach.

[Marc Vaughan]

Ok main reason for asking is most people seem to be considering defense as getting the ball and booting it hard upfield - is this pretty much standard fare?

If so I'd consider asking one of your fast players to go wide and 'deep enough' when your team is defending that they're not picked up (probably deep midfield depending on how close people mark) by the opposition - then when your team obtain the ball instead of booting it up-pitch get defenders to simply kick it in her direction either to her feet or upfield from her so she can chase it down.

Accuracy won't matter too much really - just give her something to chase - you'll have more chance retaining posession like that then just kicking it upfield where your attackers will either lose it or recieve it facing their own goal.

The other advantage you should get from this is that when she does get it she'll be heading towards their defense - this should pull at least one defender towards her, if your attackers are intelligent enough get them to run into any gaps left where defenders move forward ...

This ploy is also useful if you have a very unfit team (I last used it during my university days when nearly our entire squad were drunken smokers, don't ask ) as the 'play maker' normally has a situation where they can safely hold the ball for a short while and allow everyone else to catch their breath / amble up the pitch ...

(again whether this would work depends a lot on the motivation and skill of your players, this is an 'ideal' ploy for a reasonable sized indoor pitch where the ball can't go out of bounds because that removes any requirement for accuracy of pass really)

[DaddyTorgo]

Marc

Maybe not "standard fare" but it really depends on the skill level of the kids on the particular team, where they are in their development.

[BishopMVP]

This thread is kind of hilarious... I have no doubt that the people in this thread combined could coach a high school or select team better/as well most of those coaches, but this is Girls U12, not even select level. 5 of the girls (1/3 the team) have never even played before, and at least as many (here is a difference between here and England Marc) have probably never even seen a match on TV. There's going to be no tactical awareness or consistency to run a complicated formation or even give detailed instructions to anything more than the top 2-3 girls that have a clue what to do.

It's looks like Mizzourah has settled on the 4-3-2, and really, it's either this or the 3-3-3. Maybe, maybe, if you have 2 smart girls on defense, you can try putting the back 4 into a semi-diamond (LC/RC, Sweeper, Stopper) because girls that age/level won't be able to attack down the flanks and get good crosses off, hence jam the middle defensively, but realistically in your league it'll mostly come down to who got the most good players and how they do in a given game, because there is only so much tactics/awareness you can teach in 12 hours of practice.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

This thread is kind of hilarious... I have no doubt that the people in this thread combined could coach a high school or select team better/as well most of those coaches, but this is Girls U12, not even select level. 5 of the girls (1/3 the team) have never even played before, and at least as many (here is a difference between here and England Marc) have probably never even seen a match on TV. There's going to be no tactical awareness or consistency to run a complicated formation or even give detailed instructions to anything more than the top 2-3 girls that have a clue what to do.

It's looks like Mizzourah has settled on the 4-3-2, and really, it's either this or the 3-3-3. Maybe, maybe, if you have 2 smart girls on defense, you can try putting the back 4 into a semi-diamond (LC/RC, Sweeper, Stopper) because girls that age/level won't be able to attack down the flanks and get good crosses off, hence jam the middle defensively, but realistically in your league it'll mostly come down to who got the most good players and how they do in a given game, because there is only so much tactics/awareness you can teach in 12 hours of practice.

hence my KISS approach to it bishop. Unless you first inspire the passion and the desire to learn more about the game in these kids (not a bad idea btw), you have to keep it simple

[Icy]

Mizzou, about that team you are going to face, you can always to try man mark that skilled girl. Tell one of your girls (you need to figure which one) to just follow that skilled girl all the time at 2 feet max, to never leave her.

That is an instruction that every 12 years old girl with underestand, just be close to that player the whole game and don't care about anything else. I bet that as we are talking about teams without a lot of skills besides one of two players, the opposite team is too dependent from that girl, and if she is always marked and can't receive a lot of passes, you will force the other girls to try to play themselves or to commit mistakes seing that their leader can't touch the ball.

[Kodos]

"Nobody in the game of football should be called a genius. A genius is somebody like Norman Einstein."

[MizzouRah]

Again fellas, much thanks.

Most of the girls do know "positions" but it's a city league, so it's not as intense.. even though I like to give the ref a few words here and there.

We are the 2nd best team and this team we are playing haven't been beaten, but I know with the right setup we can beat them.

Since I know there are plenty of people here that know soccer fairly well, I just wanted to make sure I was doing the right thing. After some of your thoughts, I think I am.

We'll see Sunday though.

One thing I hate is that practice is only 1 day a week and it's only for 1 hour.. not much we can get done in that time.

[BigDPW]

You should start a dynasty thread.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by BigDPW

You should start a dynasty thread.

Next year when I'm the only coach.. I will.

[MizzouRah]

We were short players and played 9v9, we started off with a 3-3-2 and did well, they scored three goals and we were not getting many scoring opportunities - after the half, down 3-0, we swiched to a 3-2-3 and did much better, but came up short, 4-2.

Oh well, we played much better!

[sterlingice]

That's it. Next game, get down on the field and be #10. Show them how it's done

SI

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

That's it. Next game, get down on the field and be #10. Show them how it's done

SI

[Izulde]

I haven't read everything in this thread, but I'd go with a 4-3-2 or 3-4-2 in a 10 person setup.

It really depends on how strong a defender and midfielder set you have and what their skill set is in my opinion.

I'd definitely put your fastest kids at midfield or striker, because in my year of coaching a U-14 girls team, I found that speed on offense was a huge asset. Speed on defense, not as big a deal as quickness and toughness.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by Izulde

I haven't read everything in this thread, but I'd go with a 4-3-2 or 3-4-2 in a 10 person setup.

It really depends on how strong a defender and midfielder set you have and what their skill set is in my opinion.

I'd definitely put your fastest kids at midfield or striker, because in my year of coaching a U-14 girls team, I found that speed on offense was a huge asset. Speed on defense, not as big a deal as quickness and toughness.

Agreed!