Naïve Soccer Questions

[AgustusM]

So long story short I have gone from someone who has largely ignored soccer to someone who is starting to have some interest.

Specifically I am starting with the English Premier league and played a full season of FIFA 10 and am now attempting to play Football Manager.

I have a lifetime of typical American football, baseball, basketball and hockey knowledge having played and coached all 4. But soccer I am as ignorant as can be.

So between reading and playing FIFA I think I have my head wrapped around the idea of league and cup play, but player movement completely confounds me.

All of the sports I follow have free agents, trades and drafts but as far as I can tell none of those really exists in soccer. There is something called transfers that amounts to an ebay for players as far as I can tell.

So a few questions perhaps you guys can enlighten me so I can enjoy playing FM and better understand what the hell is going on.

1. Is there really no draft? If no draft where does the young talent come from?
2. No trades?
3. Can someone better explain the concept of transfers?
4. When and why do clubs transfer players?
5. Is it the club or the player that accepts or denys transfers?
6. Why do they “add” time at the end of each half instead of stopping the clock for injuries? The add time seems very arbitrary and gives the referee too much power. Is this just one of those, that is the way it has always been done things?


I am currently reading this book in hopes of better understanding, but any light you guys could shed would be great.

http://www.amazon.com/Bloody-Confuse...2647641&sr=1-1

Yes I told you I was completely ignorant.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Originally Posted by AgustusM

1. Is there really no draft? If no draft where does the young talent come from?

No, no draft. Players attach themselves to clubs at an early age and play for their youth teams. When they turn 17 they are free to sign a contract with any team. Imagine if MLB teams actually signed kids instead of just scouting for draft purposes.

2. No trades?

Not really. Player's contracts are bought and sold for pure cash. Once a team buys another player they must get him to sign a contract with them as well. Occasionally players are included in sales ("exchange") but they are fewer are further between.

3. Can someone better explain the concept of transfers?

You can buy a player's contract on the open market. In order to do this, two things must happen. First, you must agree a "transfer fee" with the club that has the player. Second, you must agree to a contract ("personal terms") with the player. Oftentimes players will be sold off as they are approaching the end of their contract and will leave for free soon (Bosman transfer). Generally speaking, transfers can only happen in certain windows (one in the summer, one the month of January in England).

4. When and why do clubs transfer players?

Players transfer as soon as they agree personal terms, assuming the transfer window is open. Why is a much tougher question, though many are similar to US reasons. The player is disappointing, the player is really good but better teams want him, the player wants to leave for some reason. As you can see, the players have a lot of power in soccer. They can ask their club to transfer list them, meaning they want to leave. Once players decide they want to leave, it's generally just a matter of time before it happens because his team knows he will leave for free at the end of his contract.

5. Is it the club or the player that accepts or denys transfers?

Both the club AND the player have to accept the terms of a transfer for it to happen.

6. Why do they “add” time at the end of each half instead of stopping the clock for injuries? The add time seems very arbitrary and gives the referee too much power. Is this just one of those, that is the way it has always been done things?

Tradition.

.

[SirFozzie]

No draft. Young players usually make their way up the food chain in one of two ways. A) Starting at a team's youth academy and making their way through the club system (usually, around age 13-14 is when the serious winnowing of players begins), or B) Once they show their skill at doing A), a bigger team will buy them. (most every team has their own youth side.. it's not unusual for a player to come up at one of the smaller clubs youth system, and then accept a transfer to a bigger team.

Player exchange deals are rare, but they do happen.

Transfers are basically "I will sell you the right for Player X to play professional football". So, let's say player B is tearing up the league at a lower league, and a higher division team wants the player's services.. they will negotiate a price for the lower division team to sell the player's rights to the bigger team (quite a few clubs make a profit by doing this)

Usually the two reasons a player will be transferred are either "They're doing really well, and a bigger team wants them", or "We can't use them (either now or in the future), so we'll sell them to somewhere else and get something out of it"

Who does a transfer? Both. When a transfer bid is accepted, the player then negotiates a new contract with the prospective new employers (Unlike the US, where when you trade a player, you trade their contract as well, a transfer basically voids the old contract (IF accepted, quite a few transfers have failed because the player can't decide on a new contract with the new team!)


The referee has complete control over timing issues, becuse he's on the field, and he knows, better then anyone, if a team is wasting time, or exactly how long a goal celebration/substitution/etcetera takes

Also, the ref has discretiopn on WHEN to blow the whistle to end the half/game. Most referees will wait till a scoring chance has completed before ending the half/game

[ISiddiqui]

As for the time being kept on the field, I'd argue a combination of Ronnie and SirFozzie's arguments. One is tradition, but the other is that most would rather like a scoring chance is completed before blowing the whistle rather than having the buzzer stop right in the middle of a build up to one.

[Big Fo]

1. Is there really no draft? If no draft where does the young talent come from?

The young players come from youth teams, kids train with pro clubs at an earlier age than in US sports, the best of them are offered pro contracts at around 16-17 years of age.

2. No trades?

Sometimes there are trades, they are called part exchange transfers. They are very uncommon because in soccer the contract doesn't carry over when a player switches teams. MLS being an exception to this I think.

3. Can someone better explain the concept of transfers?

Since most international leagues have promotion/relegation and have less parity than US sports, trades will not work for a number of reasons. A more popular/bigger/richer club buying a player from a less popular/poorer/smaller club would likely find making a trade/part exchange difficult because few of their desirable players would want to take a step down to the smaller club, or the smaller club couldn't afford to give them contracts, or because the bigger club's castoffs that would join the smaller club are not as valuable as the smaller club's star player that the bigger club wants.

So, they pay cash for the smaller club's star player's registration and then offer the player a new contract. The smaller club then uses that money to strengthen the team, maybe by buying players from even smaller clubs, investing in their youth team, or maybe the chairman just pockets the cash.

4. When and why do clubs transfer players?

English and most other European clubs transfer players in two transfer windows, one exists from July (offseason) to September 1st (a few weeks into the season) and another occurs during January (roughly halfway through the season).

Teams buy players to strengthen the team in areas where they are weak. Teams sell them for money to strengthen the team in other areas, if the player isn't good enough to play regularly for them, if the player is a troublemaker/malcontent/jerkoff that doesn't get along with the manager or teammates, or if they know a player's contract is due to end in a year or two and is unlikely to sign a new one they might sell a player they like just to make sure they get something for him and he doesn't walk away on a free transfer.

5. Is it the club or the player that accepts or denys transfers?

Unless the player's contract has expired, both player and club must accept the transfer. The two clubs negotiate a fee and the player negotiates a new contract with the club he joins.

6. Why do they “add” time at the end of each half instead of stopping the clock for injuries? The add time seems very arbitrary and gives the referee too much power. Is this just one of those, that is the way it has always been done things?

Because it's more controversial and it gives haters something to bitch about when Man Utd score in the sixth minute of injury time even if it was correct to allow that much injury time due to injuries, goal celebrations, and substitutions.

"That is the way it has always been done" is also a good answer, plus what SirFozzie and ISiddiqui said.

[molson]

Can a very good player just be stuck at a lower level if a team doesn't want to give him up? Or does the contract he sign allow for free agency after a period of time?

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Originally Posted by molson

Can a very good player just be stuck at a lower level if a team doesn't want to give him up? Or does the contract he sign allow for free agency after a period of time?

It would be in neither the player nor the club's best interest for this to happen. It's pretty much accepted that players will move to more established clubs if those clubs want them; the other team just has to try to get as much money as possible. Otherwise, they have a malcontented player who will leave for free at some point in the future. They may have trouble signing talented youngsters in the future as well.

[Icy]

Originally Posted by molson

Can a very good player just be stuck at a lower level if a team doesn't want to give him up? Or does the contract he sign allow for free agency after a period of time?

Players sign contracts for a set number of years (decided between the player and team when they sign the contract). Once those years are done, he is a free agent again.

Contract are protected on both ways. During the contract, the player can't leave the team unless he pays his contract release clause to void the contract. Teams can't fire players either unless the reach an agreement or pays his full remaining contract.

Usually when a good player wants to leave a team, he is sold to another team, as there is no point on keeping an unhappy player in your team, that could become a chemistry killer and the team is forced to keep paying him.

[AgustusM]

wow - I definitely made the right call on the place to go for information.

thank you guys so much, I feel like I understand a little bit better.

trying to play FM and it is a bit overwhelming (funny how I never understood that complaint in OOTP) I am enjoying myself and I must say FM is one of the most visibly gorgeous games I have ever played. I really have no idea what I am doing, but I am enjoying it.

[terpkristin]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

As for the time being kept on the field, I'd argue a combination of Ronnie and SirFozzie's arguments. One is tradition, but the other is that most would rather like a scoring chance is completed before blowing the whistle rather than having the buzzer stop right in the middle of a build up to one.

It's actually in the Laws of the Game.
Law 5 - The Referee "acts as timekeeper and keeps a record of the match..."
Law 7 - Duration of the Match
Allowance is made in either period for all time lost through:

• substitution(s);
• assessment of injury to players;

• removal of injured players from the field of play for treatment;

• wasting time;
• any other cause.
• The allowance for time lost is at the discretion of the referee.

Basically, the timing is completely in the hands of the ref, per the long-standing rules. Yes, it probably would be simpler if they just stopped the clock, but this allows the ref some flexibility.

/tk

[Nugget699]

Games only go for about 60 minutes all up, due to stoppages, injuries and what have you. If they stopped the clock every time there was a throw-in, goal kick etc. then players would be knackered after just the first half.

[AgustusM]

Originally Posted by terpkristin

It's actually in the Laws of the Game.
Law 5 - The Referee "acts as timekeeper and keeps a record of the match..."
Law 7 - Duration of the Match
Allowance is made in either period for all time lost through:

• substitution(s);
• assessment of injury to players;

• removal of injured players from the field of play for treatment;

• wasting time;
• any other cause.
• The allowance for time lost is at the discretion of the referee.

Basically, the timing is completely in the hands of the ref, per the long-standing rules. Yes, it probably would be simpler if they just stopped the clock, but this allows the ref some flexibility.

/tk

I guess I don't understand why the ref wouldn't just have the ability to start and stop the clock from the field. But I understand that is the way it is done. I am sure the rest of the world wonders why pitchers and batters waste so much time between pitches.

[AgustusM]

question about injured players. Like I said I am playing FM and my backup goalie is injured for 2 months but I don't see anything like an injured reserve. Do I simply send him to the reserve squad?

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by AgustusM

1. Is there really no draft? If no draft where does the young talent come from?
2. No trades?
3. Can someone better explain the concept of transfers?
4. When and why do clubs transfer players?
5. Is it the club or the player that accepts or denys transfers?

Others answered those questions, but I think they made things sound more different than they really are.

Like in the NFL, there's an off-season when transfers occur. Because leagues all across the world are not in synch (some start in Augustus/September and others start in March), there are two off-season periods where clubs can acquire players.

Trades and free agency are going around in the soccer world, but they're just called transfers instead. With a lack of draft picks, clubs use money as their means to 'trade for' players. Player for player transfers are very rare, just like player for player trades are rare in the NFL.

If players run out of contract, they're free as a bird like the average NFL free agent, no franchise tag or anything can stop them. Biggest difference is that soccer clubs don't release their unwanted veterans with contracts, they sell them, or keep them as reserves.


As you pointed out, the real difference between American sports culture and what goes around in most soccer-biased countryies is the college&draft vs home-grown aspect. Most respectable soccer clubs have their own youth deparment, loaded with talented kids. Some start scouting as early as 6 years old. In effect they create their own player pool to dig from. Occasionally clubs lure away talented kids from smaller clubs, as in most countries it's forbidden to offer contracts until the kids reach the local 'mature age', usually 18. In a way clubs have their own high schools to get their talent from. I'm skipping the college level here, because that's the level that technically got skipped anyway.

Also, as others pointed out in somewhat different ways, those teenage boys upon turning 18, usually get a contract at their club or become a 'free agent'. In the past you would also see a trend of luring away poor kids from poor countries to rich countries (South American and African kids move to Europe) and more recently pro level clubs have started to lure away teenagers away from other pro clubs more nearby (like from France to England).


Hmmm, that ended up being a pretty long post afterall. Sorry about that.

[Marc Vaughan]

In case anyones interested in the youth setup at real-world clubs, this is Stevenage FC's -
http://www.sbfa.co.uk/youth_development.htm

They're a relatively small scale club, but it gives you an idea of the age they start looking at players and how seriously clubs take such things.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by AgustusM

question about injured players. Like I said I am playing FM and my backup goalie is injured for 2 months but I don't see anything like an injured reserve. Do I simply send him to the reserve squad?

Neither actually.
In FOF you have 53 guys contracted as a limit (not counting the IRed players), but in FM, in most leagues available in the game you can just leave injured players inside your squad. Just not add them to your game day selection. In effect making them more like the inactive players.

In your example, you put your #3 goalkeeper on the bench as reserve player 1 and leave your #2 goalkeeper outside of the reserve player list.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by terpkristin

It's actually in the Laws of the Game.

Of course, but the question, as I read it, is why haven't the Laws of the Game changed. As they have in other areas (Offsides, I'm looking at you).

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by AgustusM

wow - I definitely made the right call on the place to go for information.

thank you guys so much, I feel like I understand a little bit better.

trying to play FM and it is a bit overwhelming (funny how I never understood that complaint in OOTP) I am enjoying myself and I must say FM is one of the most visibly gorgeous games I have ever played. I really have no idea what I am doing, but I am enjoying it.

i see everyone else already answered your questions while i ate. feel free to just keep using this thread, or better yet, use the FM-thread for game-specific questions -- we tend to be pretty good at helping new players get up the learning curve here i think (hope)

[terpkristin]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Of course, but the question, as I read it, is why haven't the Laws of the Game changed. As they have in other areas (Offsides, I'm looking at you).

Though when it comes to it, I really still think the answer is "because it's up to the ref what he/she wants to do" and in order to not remove the spirit of that, they don't want an outside agent (even an assistant ref) being the clock owner.

Some refs do actually stop their watches when things go down, or turn on a second timer so they can get an idea of how long each stoppage is, to weigh in when deciding how long extra to allow.

Don't get me started on offside rules, aside from saying that my favorite words in the LOTG are, "If in the opinion of the referee..."

/tk

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Of course, but the question, as I read it, is why haven't the Laws of the Game changed. As they have in other areas (Offsides, I'm looking at you).

There have been calls for some rule changes in recent years - notably to do with detecting goals (ie. when the ball crosses the goal-line).

With the extra-time I think one of the reasons against it is that its an unpredictable facet of the game and as such makes it more exciting to watch or play within.

There's nothing like seeing 5 minutes of extra-time indicated and thinking 'shit I thought we had this won', I personally preferred it when there was no indicator at all - but I'm old school

PS - I've a book around here somewhere which details all the rules changes since soccer was first created - I'd LOVE to do a version of FM where you start with the original rules and they change and evolve (along with league formats) as they did irl ... now thats just a pipe dream, but how cool would that be, fancy playing a W formation anyone?

[terpkristin]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

PS - I've a book around here somewhere which details all the rules changes since soccer was first created - I'd LOVE to do a version of FM where you start with the original rules and they change and evolve (along with league formats) as they did irl ... now thats just a pipe dream, but how cool would that be, fancy playing a W formation anyone?

I'd love it if you could either post the name of that book here or PM me with it.

/tk

[Big Fo]

I'm reading Inverting the Pyramid right now, I want to see how the game engine handles some of the older tactics including the W-M. My 4-1-2-3 formation somewhat resembles a W-W when I have the fullbacks running from deep.

[law90026]

Re the offside rule: It's meant to prevent an "unfair" advantage to the attacking player.

Think of it like the 3-second rule in basketball or not jumping the snap in american football.

The main issue with the offside rule though is that linesmen can and do make mistakes. That relates to the need for new ways to officiate games though and not so much the rule in itself.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Big Fo

I'm reading Inverting the Pyramid right now, I want to see how the game engine handles some of the older tactics including the W-M. My 4-1-2-3 formation somewhat resembles a W-W when I have the fullbacks running from deep.

Thats the one I was thinking of - its a very interesting read imho.

As you might have guessed I'm a bit of a sucker for soccer related reading, if you want to get a feel for the spirit of the game I'd definitely recommend:

Left Foot in the grave - if you've ever wondered what its like to be a professional soccer player in the lower levels then read this book. Garry Nelson played at all the professional levels BUT the Premiership and its a great read.
Left Foot in the Grave?: Amazon.co.uk: Garry Nelson: Books
Sequel is also very good:
Left Foot Forward: A Year in the Life of a Journeyman Footballer: Amazon.co.uk: Garry Nelson: Books

Trautmann Biography - He was an AMAZING player, former german prisoner of war who played in goal for Man City. Most famous for breaking his neck during a match and staying on.
Trautmann: The Biography: Amazon.co.uk: Alan Rowlands: Books

[MizzouRah]

This is a GREAT thread!!!

I can't get enough football (soccer ) I even have FSC on my TV all the time and just added Sentana to my Dish Network package!

For me, watching a Real Madrid game is like watching my Mizzou Tigers!

[RainMaker]

Couple other questions for a relative soccer newb who has sort of gotten into it.

1) If a team signs a player to a bad deal, wouldn't it be in their best interest to set the transfer fee at $0 just to get the player off the books? Is this done a lot?

2) In the same vain, if a bad player signed a real good contract, would he does he need to sign a brand new contract when transfered to a new team or does the contract transfer over?

[sterlingice]

Can I be the first to point out the little double dots above the "i"? Looks like I am

SI

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Couple other questions for a relative soccer newb who has sort of gotten into it.

1) If a team signs a player to a bad deal, wouldn't it be in their best interest to set the transfer fee at $0 just to get the player off the books? Is this done a lot?

2) In the same vain, if a bad player signed a real good contract, would he does he need to sign a brand new contract when transfered to a new team or does the contract transfer over?

#1 - it happens. but then they're faced with a huge sunk cost on the player (whatever they paid to bring him in + his wages). But setting the transfer out fee very low can move players along.

#2 - Yep, he'd have to sign a brand new contract - of course he could always just refuse to go somewhere unless they paid him more or unless his old club makes up the difference (something you can see happen in FM from time to time)

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

1) If a team signs a player to a bad deal, wouldn't it be in their best interest to set the transfer fee at $0 just to get the player off the books? Is this done a lot?

This is quite rare - but has happened in the past, I seem to recall Leeds being so desperate to offload players they let them go and continued paying a percentage of their contracts for several seasons when they were in their financial doldrums.

2) In the same vain, if a bad player signed a real good contract, would he does he need to sign a brand new contract when transfered to a new team or does the contract transfer over?

When you transfer you agree a new contract with the new club (so if a player is sitting on a contract which is far above his worth good luck getting shot of him ).

[3ric]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

1) If a team signs a player to a bad deal, wouldn't it be in their best interest to set the transfer fee at $0 just to get the player off the books? Is this done a lot?

Some times it doesn't help to give away the player for free:
Winston Bogarde - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Thats the one I was thinking of - its a very interesting read imho.

As you might have guessed I'm a bit of a sucker for soccer related reading, if you want to get a feel for the spirit of the game I'd definitely recommend:

Left Foot in the grave - if you've ever wondered what its like to be a professional soccer player in the lower levels then read this book. Garry Nelson played at all the professional levels BUT the Premiership and its a great read.
Left Foot in the Grave?: Amazon.co.uk: Garry Nelson: Books
Sequel is also very good:
Left Foot Forward: A Year in the Life of a Journeyman Footballer: Amazon.co.uk: Garry Nelson: Books

Trautmann Biography - He was an AMAZING player, former german prisoner of war who played in goal for Man City. Most famous for breaking his neck during a match and staying on.
Trautmann: The Biography: Amazon.co.uk: Alan Rowlands: Books

Not read the Trautmann bo, but I can second the Garry Nelson books - they're both excellent

I would also recommend Amazon.com: The Greatest Footballer You Never Saw: The Robin Friday Story (Mainstream Sport) (9781840181081): Paul McGuigan, Paolo Hewitt: Books
Kind of a George Best type character, but without the same ability.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Originally Posted by 3ric

Some times it doesn't help to give away the player for free:
Winston Bogarde - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My favorite part of that:

Furthermore, Chelsea won a domestic trophy during this period triggering a bonus payment in agreement with his contract, despite Bogarde not featuring at all for Chelsea that season.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Jari Rantanen's Shorts

Amazon.com: The Greatest Footballer You Never Saw: The Robin Friday Story (Mainstream Sport)

If my wife contacts you in the near future its because I just ordered that .... you're officially a bad influence on me

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

If my wife contacts you in the near future its because I just ordered that .... you're officially a bad influence on me

Heh heh! It's a good read, I'm sure the missus will understand - describe it as more of a history book!