Put your comments here for FOFC Top 25 Week 11 voting

[JeeberD]

General Mike, are you insane??? TCU number 3?

If the Frogs can beat Louisville I might be convinced that they're for real, but #3 is way to high for them...

[Huckleberry]

Even if it's some kind of silly statement about undefeated teams, why not put them at #2? Why put them so clearly where they don't belong and then stop short of putting them ahead of all teams with a loss?

Forgot one thing, why are so many people ranking Northern Illinois and Bowling Green in their polls and not Miami of Ohio? Does ESPN airtime really dictate your rankings that much?

[General Mike]

Originally posted by JeeberD
General Mike, are you insane??? TCU number 3?

If the Frogs can beat Louisville I might be convinced that they're for real, but #3 is way to high for them...

Look at where I had TCU in my poll last week.

1. Oklahoma
2. Miami
3. Southern Cal
4. Georgia
5. Washington State
6. Michigan State
7. TCU

With the exception of OU and USC, all the teams I had ahead of them lost. Once TCU loses, they will get moved down in my mind of course, but someone has to beat them first.

[General Mike]

Originally posted by Huckleberry
Even if it's some kind of silly statement about undefeated teams, why not put them at #2? Why put them so clearly where they don't belong and then stop short of putting them ahead of all teams with a loss?

Well the way you voted cancels out me putting them at #3, so don't bitch at me for voting with my heart.

[Huckleberry]

I'm not bitching at you. You claim "somebody has to beat them first", but who have they beaten?

The best team they've beaten this year is Navy. NAVY! Or maybe South Florida.

As I said earlier, if a BCS conference team had played that schedule so far, everyone would leave them at the bottom of the Top 25 out of spite. Meanwhile, TCU doesn't belong in the Top 25 at all, but I've got them at #25 because I'm willing to allow that an undefeated record is worth something.

[TroyF]

Originally posted by Huckleberry
I'm not bitching at you. You claim "somebody has to beat them first", but who have they beaten?

The best team they've beaten this year is Navy. NAVY! Or maybe South Florida.

As I said earlier, if a BCS conference team had played that schedule so far, everyone would leave them at the bottom of the Top 25 out of spite. Meanwhile, TCU doesn't belong in the Top 25 at all, but I've got them at #25 because I'm willing to allow that an undefeated record is worth something.

I understand what you are saying about TCU Huck. I even agree with most of it.

Your last statement is wrong on a lot of counts.

A BCS team wouldn't have played that schedule because they play people in their conference. You can penalize TCU for that if you like, but don't act as though they are able to do something big conference schools can.

There are many big conference schools ranked in the top 25 who have played non conference schedules every bit as bad as the Horned Frogs. LSU and Oklahoma State are ranked in everyones top 25 and their non conference schedules rival KStates.

TroyF

[Huckleberry]

Troy -

I understand that. But that's part of the assumptions that you work with when you go into making a schedule. Kansas State and Oklahoma State know going in that their entire national reputation will rest on how they do in conference against the big boys.

TCU knows going in that there aren't any big boys in their conference. So if they want national respect, then they need to try to schedule somebody from the big conferences. Anybody.

[TroyF]

Originally posted by Huckleberry
Troy -

I understand that. But that's part of the assumptions that you work with when you go into making a schedule. Kansas State and Oklahoma State know going in that their entire national reputation will rest on how they do in conference against the big boys.

TCU knows going in that there aren't any big boys in their conference. So if they want national respect, then they need to try to schedule somebody from the big conferences. Anybody.

I wonder if they tried to schedule better but were turned away.

There isn't really anything in it for a bigger conference school to play TCU. Three or four years ago, when these schedules were being made, TCU had Tomlinson and was an up and coming program. How many schools would have played them?

Probably a little better than what they got, but not a lot. It's one of the biggest things wrong with the system IMO. The only way a smaller conference school can get the big boys to listen is if they play one (and sometimes two) on the road without getting a home game in return. Even then, it doesn't matter if you get to be too dangerous.

TroyF

[Huckleberry]

I agree. It will be hard to get the top schools to schedule them. I'm talking about an Oklahoma State. A Texas Tech. A Missouri. Someone in that realm.

[sooner333]

Before they beat Miami, who had Virginia Tech beaten? The best team they played was West Virginia, according to the Massey ratings, and they lost to them. Okay, the next best team was Syrcause (4-3), after that its Texas A&M (dissapointment at 4-5) and UCONN (who hasn't played anyone either). Then they had wins over Rutgers, UCF, and mighty James Madison. Okay, so really, who had they beaten?

I will say that TCU's schedule is a little worse, but really...in terms of wins, they had beaten more teams with a winning record. Yet, Virginia Tech was still ranked #3 heading into the game with West Virginia (as pointed out, they lost) and even STILL ranked in the top 15, I think even ahead of TCU.

No, they weren't left out of the top 25 in spite, probably not in ANYBODY's poll. TCU, do they deserve to be #3, probably not, but if they were in a BCS conference, playing their schedule, they probably would be there anyway.

[sooner333]

Dola- Why would OSU, Missorui, or Texas Tech schedule a program that is good, but not well percieved. If they lose, it looks bad, if they win, they should have. OSU needed those easy wins to take their hyped team that just lost to the Huskers and make them look good again. If they even squeaked by TCU, it wouldn't look as good as blowing out SMU.

[Huckleberry]

Texas A&M, Rutgers, Connecticut, and Syracuse are all better than TCU's best win.

Well, I may have to put Rutgers in the same category as Navy and South Florida, but not below.

[sooner333]

My point wasn't that VA Tech shouldn't be in the top 25, I'm just saying, using your logic, they shouldn't have been ranked #3, which is where you had them in the week 9 poll. Yes, Va Tech's three wins are rated in the 50s (Syracuse) and 60s (aTm and UCONN) of the Massey Ratings, but Navy and So Florida are in the 70s and so is rutgers. I just don't see how you can justify rating Va Tech at #3 and TCU #25.

[Huckleberry]

Easy. Margin of victory. How much they're winning by.

Virginia Tech -

Central Florida by 21
James Madison by 43
A&M by 16
UConn by 34
Rutgers by 26
Syracuse by 44

TCU -

Tulane by 3
Navy by 14
Vanderbilt by 16
Arizona by 3
Army by 27
South Florida by 3
UAB by 3

That's why. I am not a silly BCS computer program that ignores how bad the beating was.

[HornedFrog Purple]

He of course justifies TCU not being in the Top 25, but fails to mention why he has Bowling Green and Miami of Ohio in his with them having the 85th and 71st ranked schedules in the country with a loss each.

Texas Tech is on the schedule with a home-and-home in the coming years something Mack Brown would not do when approached by Franchione.

Just let him keep bitching, it is funny to see an orangeblood taking out his frustrations on TCU.

[Huckleberry]

I'm starting to think you're actually insane. Miami of Ohio laid the beat down on the road against Colorado State and Northwestern. Now, Northwestern sucks, but it was the worst loss NW has suffered this year.

Bowling Green beat Purdue on the road.

Has TCU done anything approaching the level of those accomplishments? No. Now, if TCU handles Louisville, they will certainly move up in my rankings. My rankings are based on actual accomplishments. Notice that Texas is still only 17, despite totally dismantling a Top 25 team this weekend. That's because they haven't shown the ability to consistently do that.

The sad part is that you actually think that this is some sort of personal thing I have against TCU. Look at the objective data. TCU has not accomplished as much as Miami of Ohio, Bowling Green, or Virginia Tech even without the win over the Hurricanes.

[sooner333]

Actually, the Massey ratings do include margin of victory (old formula), and they actually have TCU out of the top 25. I was just trying to use your logic where you said "if any team in a BCS conference had that schedule, they would be left out of the top 25". Then you put a BCS team with a crappy schedule at #3 before they lose to the best team they play...and STILL have them over the undefeated team with a crappy schedule as well.

And hey...we beat Wisconsin!

[Huckleberry]

Yes, re-reading my post I see that my statements make it seem I was talking about Massey's ratings at that point because you had brought them up.

What I was referring to was the ratings used by the BCS, and the fact that they have TCU fairly high.

I've already explained why Virginia Tech was ahead of TCU even after the loss to West Virginia.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Originally posted by Huckleberry
I'm starting to think you're actually insane. Miami of Ohio laid the beat down on the road against Colorado State and Northwestern. Now, Northwestern sucks, but it was the worst loss NW has suffered this year.

Bowling Green beat Purdue on the road.

Has TCU done anything approaching the level of those accomplishments? No. Now, if TCU handles Louisville, they will certainly move up in my rankings. My rankings are based on actual accomplishments. Notice that Texas is still only 17, despite totally dismantling a Top 25 team this weekend. That's because they haven't shown the ability to consistently do that.

The sad part is that you actually think that this is some sort of personal thing I have against TCU. Look at the objective data. TCU has not accomplished as much as Miami of Ohio, Bowling Green, or Virginia Tech even without the win over the Hurricanes.

You are right I am definitely questioning my sanity.

Have you ever heard of any team this late in the season in Division 1-A who was undefeated and not ranked?

TCU is absolutely no factor in the BCS. That is the way the system works with a non-BCS team. Tulane was the last example of such a team. Nothing happened.

Margin of victory is important but misleading depending on the team. Ohio State for example this year has had trouble beating anyone by more than a few points no matter who it has been. TCU by design is built on defense (although the Houston game I would beg to differ). They don't blow people out usually. That is no excuse that is just the way it is. The problem with that argument is even if TCU happened to win by an average of 22 points a game, you would counter with that they haven't played anybody.

The bottom line is they haven't lost whether its because you think they suck or are lucky, play the YMCA or whatever. Their BCS ranking reflects that. If they lose which 3 of the last 4 games are a real possibility of losing any of them, the rankings and BCS will reflect it.

I just don't understand you getting riled up at TCU when they are absolutely no factor in determining anything for the BCS or national championship race. I have them at 13 in my own personal poll. They were 29th in the coaches preseason poll and haven't lost. Gaining a spot or 2 a week while other teams around them lose doesn't seem that farfetched to me.

[Huckleberry]

I'm not getting riled up. I'm disagreeing. Debating. Arguing, in the non-combative sense.

I'm not concerned about TCU in the BCS. In all honesty, I'd love to see TCU get into a BCS Bowl, for various reasons.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Do you want playoffs? Then hope TCU goes undefeated and doesn't get a BCS bowl. It has already been brought up in Congress believe it or not.

[HornedFrog Purple]

dola

Northern Illinois's SOS is currently 100. This despite playing Alabama and Maryland and playing two conference teams who have a higher SOS then they do and an equal record. Yet you will see 2 and in some cases 3 MAC teams ranked in the Top 25.

Like I said in another thread, it is coming to a point where no BCS team will want to play a good mid-major program. The BCS is skewered towards the BCS conferences by design. It is not worth it to a BCS team to play a mid-major for the sake of gaining a few spots in SOS. It is a system where being in a BCS conference regardless of its performance, will guarantee you a higher SOS just for being in it.

[Huckleberry]

Yeah, I want playoffs. But I'm not really overly concerned about it as a Texas fan, as it would just mean another loss on national TV.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Believe me, I would love to see Texas do better than they do. It is good for everybody in the state. But in the long run was this win over Nebraska what you really wanted?

By this I mean Mack gone along with his coordinators. This win seems to have assured it will just be the coordinators. You guys stomped a mudhole in them from what I read (I was kind of busy on Saturday). It is a good win and a big game win especially considering the circumstances.

I would consider the OSU-Texas game the fight for the Cotton Bowl which is a big recruitment game especially since OSU loves to recruit in the metroplex. (thats why they try and play SMU here every year)

[Huckleberry]

Actually, I've heard that the Cotton Bowl is tired of having us, which I understand. I've heard that the game this weekend is for the Cotton Bowl from OSU's perspective, but that they would still rather have Nebraska than us if we beat the Cowboys.

As for the Nebraska result, it was a great win and a great performance. Overall, it's disappointing because I know Brown will use it to retain as much of his staff as possible. Carl Reese has no idea how to shut down a two-dimensional offense, and the fact that Jamaal Lord can't throw is all that saved us Saturday. I don't know if we covered the TE on play-action once all day. Offensively, it was nice to see our highly-touted OL finally blow people off the ball. Still, Davis has no idea how to create and implement a finely tuned offense. At times in the 3rd quarter it was like he totally forgot what was working. Roy Williams ran one route past 15 yards all day. Of course, it was a 20 yard completion, but who noticed things like that? Certainly not our staff.

I have decided to accept mediocrity. It's all that can be expected at this point. Every year we have a great performance. Last year's win at Kansas State was great. This year's domination of Nebraska was nice. Eventually the fact that the great game is never against OU will catch up with Brown. We'll see how long it takes.

[TroyF]

Dealing with the same thing at CU HFP.

Okruh needs to be fired. He badly needs to be fired. Everything is looking like he's going to get fired. . . and then the defense plays decent against Oklahoma and forces 6 turnovers against Texas Tech. (while allowing the Tech offense under 20 points)

This is a total disaster. Barnett cannot decide to keep this dolt.

The offense should be great next year. The defense should be average/above average. CU should win the north. If Okruh stays, they'll give up 35 a game and we won't have a shot.

TroyF

[HornedFrog Purple]

Didn't Barnett put his foot down and declared everybody was playing for their jobs in practice?

That is what I am talking about, Mack even did that (I think he said 4 spots were safe or something along those lines).

I know Huck and IMTG rip on Colorado but Barnett has balls playing the kind of non-conference schedule he does every year. I don't see any way that CU will go all the way because he is setting himself up for a loss every year to one of those games + dealing with the Big-12.

I really thought the game against Arkansas was a good move to prepare Texas for OU and the rest of the Big-12, and I even thought they had a chance to beat OU despite the loss because of the caliber and style of Arkansas who will try to smash it down your throat. What absolutely astonished me was the call to take a penalty to make it 3rd and 30 something instead of taking the play, 4th down and a punt. I was at work and I said "Man watch Arkansas convert this" and I was joking. Of course they did.

Gary Patterson has made a couple of questionable calls himself but it hasn't hurt him yet (oh you can't have him as your DC even if I have to work 80 hours overtime a week to pay his salary)

[TroyF]

The schedule eases up a bit next year. The year after they play Miami I think. Next year the non-conference slate will be as weak as its been in ten years. Colorado State should pose the only real threat.

There are reasons CU plays the schedule they do:

1) Boulder doesn't draw well for "minor" games. If they want a sell out, they have to bring in well known competition.

2) McCartney started the difficult schedule. He was a Michigan boy. He thought playing a tough non-conference schedule should be mandatory for the big guys.

TroyF

[HornedFrog Purple]

Originally posted by Huckleberry
Troy -

I understand that. But that's part of the assumptions that you work with when you go into making a schedule. Kansas State and Oklahoma State know going in that their entire national reputation will rest on how they do in conference against the big boys.

TCU knows going in that there aren't any big boys in their conference. So if they want national respect, then they need to try to schedule somebody from the big conferences. Anybody.

Just in case people were not aware, the game with Arizona was part of a home-and-home Franchione worked out. They came to Amon Carter a couple years back and this was the return game. This was more of a timing issue than anything, it was not known that Arizona would self-destruct in the couple of years between games. This was the same argument you gave me regarding North Carolina a couple years back and it applies here.

Nebraska was supposed to come to Amon Carter as return for us going to Lincoln (they do have a large fanbase in DFW and broadcast all Husker games here on the radio). Nebraska would not agree to finish their end of the bargain. It might have had something to do with the game in Lincoln. We had to reschedule and get Vanderbilt.

We had Marshall for a home and home but 9/11 cancelled one game and the two schools never worked out an alternative plan. That is really no one's fault.

Franchione attempted to schedule Texas but Texas would only play in Austin. SMU is a given because of rivalry obviously.

We have gotten Tech to agree to a home-and-home and I am glad that our AD has taken this stance because that is how a program gains respect.

Just as an example even Southern Mississippi who used to play anybody at their place is demanding a home game in kind now. This is what mid-majors are going to start to have to do to get any shred of money that BCS schools get automatically for finishing 4th or 5th in their conference and in my opinion that is the way it should be.

[Huckleberry]

At least somebody had Miami of Ohio ranked.

I agree on the Arizona game. I thought of that one after I questioned the lack of a BCS team on TCU's schedule. Not their fault that Arizona sucks now. Sort of like it wasn't Texas' fault that North Carolina sucked by the time we played them. Oh wait, it sort of was our fault.

But, we have Arkansas on the schedule this year and next year and then in 2005/2006 we play Ohio State home and away. Brown scheduled those two series.

[HornedFrog Purple]

You sure nailed that one. That Buckeye QB Krenzel might only be the 4th best QB in the state of Ohio.

See? Mack Brown replaced Mackovic who then went to Arizona and messed up the program. He is killing us all!

Seriously good to see Texas toughing up their OOC schedule. It will begin to pay dividends in the long haul.