Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward64
If your definition of "Ukraine was never winning this war ..." is #3 or #4, I can see some truth in it. But I actually consider Ukraine "wins" by surviving as an independent country, acting as a buffer country, allied with (if not in) NATO as the most likely scenario.
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The goalposts have shifted a lot as the war has gone on. Victory was defined early on as kicking the Russians out and keeping control of their country with an alliance with the West (possibly NATO membership). That doesn't seem possible anymore.
Victory for Ukraine at this point likely means survival as an independent country. Keeping as much land as possible and avoiding a puppet leader being installed. Them losing that land out East sucks but it also makes it easier to survive as a country that is friendly to the West (the East is far more pro-Russian in elections). That is if they choose to go back to a democracy.
I don't know if there is a victory scenario for the United States at all in this. The war has almost no impact on Americans. Ukraine has never really been an ally and up until around 10 years ago was just a Russian puppet state. They're not going to suddenly become a huge trade partner and would likely rely on massive amounts of aid to just survive. I guess maybe if the war led to Putin being ousted, but it's not like Russia has a group of pro-West leaders waiting in the wings.