Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackadar
I provided another alternate stat that showed Ben as the 17th best QB of all time. What, you didn't like that? If you like alternate number crunching, feel free to go out there and browse. Personally, I prefer to use the stats the NFL does...wins being one of the main ones.
|
Yes, winning. It's 100% on the shoulders of a QB. A great way to measure and separate quality QBs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackadar
First, let's start with Rivers. You're right, he's on another level. One below Ben. San Diego has been known for having some of the best talent, if not THE best talent, in the league for some years now. And their stats are quite similar in terms of completion percentage, QB rating, etc.
The major differences? Ben is 8-2 in the playoffs and Rivers is 3-3. Ben has a significantly better QB rating, even with that 22.6 rating in his first Super Bowl. Ben has 50% more 4th quarter comebacks. Ben has won far more games and they started in the league in the same year. Finally, Ben has two rings. Rivers? None.
|
Rivers and Ben have quite similar meaningless stats. That's impressive. How did Ben do in the playoffs last season, btw?
Prove to me that 4th quarter comebacks are on the QB over the defense, head coach, running game, ect and I'll listen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackadar
In a nutshell, Rivers can't hold Ben's jock.
|
When it comes to team accomplishments I agree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackadar
And if you want Flacco and Ryan, then that's fine. Both are good QBs (personally, I'd rather have Flacco). But that's like asking for Mark Bulger over Troy Aikman. Personally, I'll take the winner. I'll break down those guys below.
|
Do you seriously think winning is an individual skill?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackadar
Rogers and Eli? You're off your fucking rocker and those aren't even worth responding to.
|
Your bias is showing. Statistically they've been better than Ben, playing on worse teams, and Eli even has that super bowl win that automatically makes him one of the best QBs of all time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackadar
He's been consistently good by virtually any standard. Until the last couple of years, he hasn't consistently been great. Now, he's fantastic. From an offensive standpoint, he's carried that team the last two years. Watch the final drive in that last Super Bowl...there's not another QB in the league who could have pulled that off. No one has that kind of play making, scrambling and improvisation in the league. No one.
|
We obviously are going to disagree on the definition of consistency. Bad in '06 and '08 while good in '07 and '09 is not consistent in any way.
The final drive? Not another QB in the league that could pull it off? Let me introduce you to sample size and hyperbole.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackadar
As for his team conditions, they've been very good, but you're overstating the matter. He's played for two coaches and over the last couple of years has an offensive line that requires him to run for his life and a very poor/inconsistent running game. Yet he's had his best statistical seasons when he's had to carry the team. His conditions are certainly no better than Rivers, yet he's succeeded and Rivers hasn't. Why is that?
|
2 coaches over the last couple of years? Wow, life has been hard on Big Ben. I don't know how he's been able to overcome such a disadvantage.
He runs for his life and is in the top 3 in sacks every year because he holds onto the ball too long.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackadar
I can't judge Ryan or Flacco since they're still young, but both are also in optimal situations. Both are damn fine players. Yet Ryan regressed last season and Flacco, in an optimal situation with the Ravens, only won 9 games. Never mind Flacco's playoff performances (QB rating: 46.5) have been downright awful. Why is that? You'd want a guy who has 1td and 6ints in the playoffs more than Ben? I guess you like losing?
|
Flacco is in his 2nd year. I stated I'd take him over Roethlisberger over the next 5 years. Playoff stats? Sample size, sample size, sample size, sample size.
Like losing? No, just as I'd take ARod over Jeter in clutch situation, I'll take the better player over the perception that winning is an individual skill, clutch a skill at all, and all sorts of other ideas people form to make players fit what they want them to be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackadar
What does it say when your best comparison on 4th quarter comebacks is Bledsoe (Pro Football Reference says he has 31), who played for 14 years while Ben has 22 in just 6 years?
|
Absolutely nothing. Which is what 4th quarter comebacks as a statistic tell me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackadar
It's funny, I heard the same exact type of complaints about another gunslinger who scrambled a lot and just found ways to win. He has a 79.9 career passer rating, yet had more wins than any other QB when he retired, had 50 comebacks and is now acknowledged as one of the all time greats. You might have heard of him because he's in the HoF now - John Elway.
|
I heard Elway wasn't a winner and couldn't win a big game until he got a coach, a defense, a running game, and receivers. Then all I heard was how Elway had suddenly become a winner.
Winning = an individual skill that magically develops when everyone around you gets better.